Is Mr C split in two?

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yaxomoxay
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Is Mr C split in two?

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:01 pm

I was watching the famous phone call.
The voice says:
“I just called to say goodbye”...”You are going back in tomorrow, and I will be with Bob again.”

Now, according to what we know Mr.C does NOT want to be back, he actually prevents it. If Mr.C just wanted to be with Judy he simply had to... go back in.
What is more interesting is that the Voice (Judy I assume) is speaking to Mr C as a different person than Bob. YOU are going back in, and I will be with BOB again. To me this seems to imply that Mr.C wants Bob inside (as the mirror scene in the jail shows), but Bob might not have any control or say over Mr.C’s action.
Is Mr.C a split personality?


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Last edited by yaxomoxay on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nighthawk
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:51 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:I was watching the famous phone call.
The voice says:
“I just called to say goodbye”...”You are going back in tomorrow, and I will be with Bob again.”

Now, according to what we know Mr.C does NOT want to be back, he actually prevents it. If Mr.C just wanted to be with Judy he simply had to... go back in.
What is more interesting is that the Voice (Judy I assume) is speaking to Mr C as a different person than Bob. YOU are going back in, and I will be with BOB again. To me this seems to imply that Mr.C wants Bob inside (as the mirror scene in the jail shows), but Bob might not have any control or say over Mr.C’s action.
Is Mr.C a split personality?


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It's an interesting question. It's often assumed that Mr. C. and Bob are one entity and have the same goals, but perhaps that is not the case. There is no indication that Bob ever sought to reunite with Judy. Bob just wants to feed on pain and fear. It's Mr. C. who is looking for Judy, and he needs Bob to help him along like a tool to be used. Bob clearly had a lot of control over a human host like Leland, but Mr. C. may be more resistant.
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:30 pm

Nighthawk wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:I was watching the famous phone call.
The voice says:
“I just called to say goodbye”...”You are going back in tomorrow, and I will be with Bob again.”

Now, according to what we know Mr.C does NOT want to be back, he actually prevents it. If Mr.C just wanted to be with Judy he simply had to... go back in.
What is more interesting is that the Voice (Judy I assume) is speaking to Mr C as a different person than Bob. YOU are going back in, and I will be with BOB again. To me this seems to imply that Mr.C wants Bob inside (as the mirror scene in the jail shows), but Bob might not have any control or say over Mr.C’s action.
Is Mr.C a split personality?


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It's an interesting question. It's often assumed that Mr. C. and Bob are one entity and have the same goals, but perhaps that is not the case. There is no indication that Bob ever sought to reunite with Judy. Bob just wants to feed on pain and fear. It's Mr. C. who is looking for Judy, and he needs Bob to help him along like a tool to be used. Bob clearly had a lot of control over a human host like Leland, but Mr. C. may be more resistant.


Interesting points. Well, Mr.C was a doppelgänger created in the Black Lodge so I would expect him not only to be more resistant to evil forces but to actually feed on them. If I remember correctly from S2, we see (a young) Mr.C as a complete separate entity from Bob, that is they are independent and they don’t need each other to survive. Mr.C is already evil (his laugh and blue eyes traumatized me back then!!) We certainly know that Bob doesn’t need Mr. C, but if I had to look at S2 and this phone conversation, the same is true for Mr. C: he doesn’t need Bob. Another clue for this is that in jail - mirror scene - Mr. C says : “Good to see you are still with me” . This to me implies that Mr. C can live very well without Bob, and that Bob’s absence wouldn’t change Mr. C nature by much.

At this point I think that from Mr.C’s perspective, Bob has become just “perfect Garmonbonzia”. That would explain Mr.C’s surprise at the mirror image. As we know Mr.C threw up way more that we’d like to see on screen at dinnertime, so he might’ve been worried that Bob took the opportunity to leave. If that’s the case, things would become a little more complex.



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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:33 pm

Nighthawk wrote:It's an interesting question. It's often assumed that Mr. C. and Bob are one entity and have the same goals, but perhaps that is not the case. There is no indication that Bob ever sought to reunite with Judy. Bob just wants to feed on pain and fear. It's Mr. C. who is looking for Judy, and he needs Bob to help him along like a tool to be used. Bob clearly had a lot of control over a human host like Leland, but Mr. C. may be more resistant.


Which makes the Part 2 “Jeffries” phone call even more perplexing. If it is Judy on the phone, as the NY reference heavily implies, we have: Judy wanting to be with Bob again (by bringing Mr. C into the Black Lodge) and Mr. C wanting to find Judy. So, Judy and Mr. C have more or less the same goal (after all, if Mr. C meets Judy, she presumably will be with Bob)? (The only disagreement seems to be Mr. C not wanting to go back to the Lodge.)

Back to the subect at hand, I view Bob/Mr. C as more of a partnership, rather than the inhabitation of Leland (they seem to be cackling conspiratorially together in Episode 29). Presumably Bob feeds off of Mr. C’s atrocities (which is perhaps why he continues doing evil things, despite seeming not to take particular pleasure from it). Bob I think offers Mr. C protection and power. Think about it...if Mr. C is Cooper’s shadow self, he wouldn’t have any supernatural powers (such as Mr. C’s super strength in the Renzo scene)...he would be human. Furthermore, doppelgangers are not Lodge spirits, and are presumably pretty low in the pecking order (since there are, again presumably, as many of them as there are humans alive in the universe). The fact that the Woodsmen do Mr. C’s bidding and save his life is, I think, out of respect/deference to Bob. Bob also probably acts similar to the way Mike guides Dougie/Cooper throughout the series, keying Mr. C into Lodge undercurrents that mortals miss, in order to help him further his goals.

None of that is spelled out in the text of course, but it seems pretty logical given the show’s rules. This all brings me full circle: why is Bob helping Mr. C accomplish his goal of finding Judy? Does Bob WANT to be with Judy again?
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:12 pm

Just one way to look at it. Here's one of Lynch's quotes he once cited on Twitter, and again in an interview before the return: "Man has control of action alone, never the fruits of the action."

Mr. C is in control of his actions, and holding onto Bob, could be the futile attempt to control the fruits of action.
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:15 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Which makes the Part 2 “Jeffries” phone call even more perplexing. If it is Judy on the phone, as the NY reference heavily implies, we have: Judy wanting to be with Bob again (by bringing Mr. C into the Black Lodge) and Mr. C wanting to find Judy. So, Judy and Mr. C have more or less the same goal (after all, if Mr. C meets Judy, she presumably will be with Bob)? (The only disagreement seems to be Mr. C not wanting to go back to the Lodge.)


The difference seems to be that Judy wants to reconnect with Bob, but doesn't really care about Mr. C. He's only useful to her as a "carrier" of Bob. Mr. C. wants to find Judy for some purpose of his own, but it needs to happen on his own terms, as in - not in the Black Lodge. Mr. C. also set up the NY glass box with the idea of luring Judy (possibly trapping her?). She might not be too pleased about THAT. Another thing to consider is what happens if/when Mr. C. dies. Does Bob need to return to the Lodge? It seems like he has the freedom to roam around the Earth looking for a host when not inhabiting anyone. If Bob does need to return though, then Fireman's and Judy's goal might be one and the same in that regard. They both want Mr. C. dead. That would explain some things actually.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Back to the subect at hand, I view Bob/Mr. C as more of a partnership, rather than the inhabitation of Leland (they seem to be cackling conspiratorially together in Episode 29). Presumably Bob feeds off of Mr. C’s atrocities (which is perhaps why he continues doing evil things, despite seeming not to take particular pleasure from it). Bob I think offers Mr. C protection and power. Think about it...if Mr. C is Cooper’s shadow self, he wouldn’t have any supernatural powers (such as Mr. C’s super strength in the Renzo scene)...he would be human. Furthermore, doppelgangers are not Lodge spirits, and are presumably pretty low in the pecking order (since there are, again presumably, as many of them as there are humans alive in the universe). The fact that the Woodsmen do Mr. C’s bidding and save his life is, I think, out of respect/deference to Bob. Bob also probably acts similar to the way Mike guides Dougie/Cooper throughout the series, keying Mr. C into Lodge undercurrents that mortals miss, in order to help him further his goals.


Yeah, I agree. Their relationship is symbiotic one rather than a host/parasite like Leland/Bob.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:This all brings me full circle: why is Bob helping Mr. C accomplish his goal of finding Judy? Does Bob WANT to be with Judy again?


As far as I can tell, Bob has not been shown to have any far reaching plans other than his thirst for garmonbozia.
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:46 am

Nighthawk wrote:Another thing to consider is what happens if/when Mr. C. dies. Does Bob need to return to the Lodge? It seems like he has the freedom to roam around the Earth looking for a host when not inhabiting anyone. If Bob does need to return though, then Fireman's and Judy's goal might be one and the same in that regard. They both want Mr. C. dead. That would explain some things actually.


There’s definitely something tragicomic about Mr. C’s arc. I do get the sense that none of the Lodge spirits (except Bob) is particularly on his side, and it does seem like all sides (including the ambiguous Jeffries) are screwing with him and using him as a pawn.
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:40 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:There’s definitely something tragicomic about Mr. C’s arc. I do get the sense that none of the Lodge spirits (except Bob) is particularly on his side, and it does seem like all sides (including the ambiguous Jeffries) are screwing with him and using him as a pawn.


This seems to be an unspoken, but consistent theme, that different entities are using each other to pursue their goals. Jeffries is among the particularly mysterious group, as we don't know who he is working for, whether he is working for anyone, or even if he is involved at all.
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:21 pm

Another way to interpret the lodge entities like the wrathful and peaceful deities of the Bardo realm, in other words a projection of one's own karma. They are illusions perceived in different ways depending on who sees them.

"All the peaceful and wrathful deities are only archetypal images of the mind that have no reality of their own. They are empty and cannot harm the body of an enlightened awareness. All the blood-drinking and animal-headed deities of the bardo are mere projections of the intellect and they emerge from the four directions of the third eye chakra.

According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, all the wrathful deities appear in order to purify awareness of false thinking, ignorance, and delusion. If you are able to recognize the deities by name and see through them as mere illusions, they instantly lose their power over your consciousness and you achieve liberation/enlightenment.

However, any kind of reaction to them that is caused by fear brings you one step closer to rebirth. The effect of the images becomes even stronger if the awareness-body tries to evade or reject them. This simply means that the only way to gain power over these entities is by accepting them as aspects of your own consciousness; avoiding them only makes them more powerful.

Evading or rejecting these visions would cause consciousness to descend into unconsciousness. Figuratively speaking, all your demons (negative karma) are hiding inside the subconscious and wielding their influence over your life now because before you were born, your consciousness wasn’t strong enough to overcome them in the after death state (assuming you accept rebirth as part of your belief system).

It is, therefore, reasonably important for practitioners in Tibetan Buddhism and any other spiritual tradition to pay attention to this fact during their lifetime and distinguish these hidden aspects of consciousness to avoid being overwhelmed once they leave this world. In other words, you have no choice but to face your own fears whether you are dead or alive."

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... ul_Deities
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby LateReg » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:37 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Another thing to consider is what happens if/when Mr. C. dies. Does Bob need to return to the Lodge? It seems like he has the freedom to roam around the Earth looking for a host when not inhabiting anyone. If Bob does need to return though, then Fireman's and Judy's goal might be one and the same in that regard. They both want Mr. C. dead. That would explain some things actually.


There’s definitely something tragicomic about Mr. C’s arc. I do get the sense that none of the Lodge spirits (except Bob) is particularly on his side, and it does seem like all sides (including the ambiguous Jeffries) are screwing with him and using him as a pawn.


It's definitely tragicomic, good word! In and of itself and especially in response to those who have a problem with his lack of forward progression, I've frequently noted the existential irony in his goal, the achievement of which instantly leads to his doom. It's certainly funny.
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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:44 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Another thing to consider is what happens if/when Mr. C. dies. Does Bob need to return to the Lodge? It seems like he has the freedom to roam around the Earth looking for a host when not inhabiting anyone. If Bob does need to return though, then Fireman's and Judy's goal might be one and the same in that regard. They both want Mr. C. dead. That would explain some things actually.


There’s definitely something tragicomic about Mr. C’s arc. I do get the sense that none of the Lodge spirits (except Bob) is particularly on his side, and it does seem like all sides (including the ambiguous Jeffries) are screwing with him and using him as a pawn.


It's definitely tragicomic, good word! In and of itself and especially in response to those who have a problem with his lack of forward progression, I've frequently noted the existential irony in his goal, the achievement of which instantly leads to his doom. It's certainly funny.


I think that “lack of progression” is not a fair ‘complaint’ (not saying that you’re complaining :) ).
The story happens about 25 years later the arrival of our beloved Doppelgänger. He went from being controlled by Bob to somewhat control him, from being a crazy dude that headbutts mirrors to be a millionaire with a vast network of aides and all sort of strange technologies. I think that he evolved quite a bit. We should not forget that TP:TR covers the span of a week or so, it would be anti-thematic to have him change too much. He set and worked on his goals for 25 years.
On the other hand, this also covers in part the function of Dougie.


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Re: Is Mr C split in two?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am

yaxomoxay wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
There’s definitely something tragicomic about Mr. C’s arc. I do get the sense that none of the Lodge spirits (except Bob) is particularly on his side, and it does seem like all sides (including the ambiguous Jeffries) are screwing with him and using him as a pawn.


It's definitely tragicomic, good word! In and of itself and especially in response to those who have a problem with his lack of forward progression, I've frequently noted the existential irony in his goal, the achievement of which instantly leads to his doom. It's certainly funny.


I think that “lack of progression” is not a fair ‘complaint’ (not saying that you’re complaining :) ).
The story happens about 25 years later the arrival of our beloved Doppelgänger. He went from being controlled by Bob to somewhat control him, from being a crazy dude that headbutts mirrors to be a millionaire with a vast network of aides and all sort of strange technologies. I think that he evolved quite a bit. We should not forget that TP:TR covers the span of a week or so, it would be anti-thematic to have him change too much. He set and worked on his goals for 25 years.
On the other hand, this also covers in part the function of Dougie.


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Oh, yeah. I'm not complaining at all. We saw a few days in a life that built to this moment for 25 years. That's what I love about The Return's overall approach to storytelling throughout. It's realistic and unforced; we're on the same exact page. At the same time, there's also the psychological/existential perspectives (and mirroring and dream logic), which make Mr. C's lack of progression (in the typical sense) over the 18 hours of The Return very interesting to think about.
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Is Mr C split in two?

Postby yaxomoxay » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:46 am

LateReg wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
LateReg wrote:
It's definitely tragicomic, good word! In and of itself and especially in response to those who have a problem with his lack of forward progression, I've frequently noted the existential irony in his goal, the achievement of which instantly leads to his doom. It's certainly funny.


I think that “lack of progression” is not a fair ‘complaint’ (not saying that you’re complaining ).
The story happens about 25 years later the arrival of our beloved Doppelgänger. He went from being controlled by Bob to somewhat control him, from being a crazy dude that headbutts mirrors to be a millionaire with a vast network of aides and all sort of strange technologies. I think that he evolved quite a bit. We should not forget that TP:TR covers the span of a week or so, it would be anti-thematic to have him change too much. He set and worked on his goals for 25 years.
On the other hand, this also covers in part the function of Dougie.


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Oh, yeah. I'm not complaining at all. We saw a few days in a life that built to this moment for 25 years. That's what I love about The Return's overall approach to storytelling throughout. It's realistic and unforced; we're on the same exact page. At the same time, there's also the psychological/existential perspectives (and mirroring and dream logic), which make Mr. C's lack of progression (in the typical sense) over the 18 hours of The Return very interesting to think about.


I think that one of the key elements is to understand the absence of a Cooper-Mr.C dynamic.
Yesterday I was observing this picture:

Image

What hit me is how the chair divides the room in a sort of “pie chart”, and how Coop+Diane are separated from everyone else in the room. That chair was the last place that saw Mr. C alive. More than that, Cooper never saw Mr. C alive. I am beginning to think that Cooper could’ve not killed Mr. C (and BOB) for the simple reason that Mr. C *IS* Cooper. It would’ve been a paradox, or maybe something truly impossible because he is himself, in any form.

Cooper allowed the annihilation of his soul 25 years prior, that is his growth - or search for Enlightenment - halted 25 years ago when he separated from Mr. C (which I guess explains Andy’s vision with the giant when we see the three Coops).
At the same rate, I think that 25 years OUTSIDE of the Lodge allowed Mr. C to search for his “dark” Enlightenment (Judy?) until he finally was very close to it just to be stopped by purity (Lucy). At that point, there is no growth.
That would also explain why we see Cooper’s face throughout the scene, after Mr. C dies. He’s finally becoming himself in his entirety.

(For the record, the above picture reminds me of a clock. I am probably reading too much into it, but if Hawk is at the center of the clock, GreenGlove+James (those who killed BOB) are at 2, Diane+Cooper at 53 minutes, and the three girls are the seconds hand. Everyone else except Truman is positioned outside of the room, with meticulous precision)


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