Is Audrey a tulpa?

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Diane
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Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Diane » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:00 pm

I don't have time to read through all the Audrey threads to find if this has already been proposed. But she does mention that she doesn't feel like herself, Charlie talks about "ending her story," and she seems to wake up somewhere and say "What?" as if she is in the black lodge or somewhere strange.

The Diane tulpa says that she was raped by Mr. C and taken to the convenience store. She also says, like Audrey, that she is "not herself."

Since Audrey seems to have been raped (we don't know whether the doppelgänger sex was consensual) and taken somewhere, could it be that she is also a tulpa created by Mr. C? That would explain why her story doesn't quite make sense.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby laughingpinecone » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:16 am

It couldn't have been consensual since the doppelganger was only in town for a few hours while she was very much in a coma. She wasn't taken anywhere, though? She remained in a coma and woke up a couple of weeks later.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Diane » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:05 pm

Well, apparently she was taken to a white room, wherever that is. It could be that the real Audrey was taken somewhere and the tulpa went home from the hospital.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby laughingpinecone » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:02 am

Will saw Mr C get out of that hospital wing and he wasn't dragging around a comatose girl... TFD also chronicles a good chunk of Audrey's life and, from a doylist perspective, I think Mfrost would've handled things differently if he were talking about a tulpa. There's weird bits later on but the early years make sense for regular Audrey...
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:29 am

Like most of the best aspects of TP mythology, tulpas seem to function on both a literal and metaphorical level, which makes them more satisfying than a clone in your typical sci-fi work. Diane’s tulpa — the one we spend by far the most time with — seems to be a symbol of the dissociation and loss of self that can follow a traumatic event like rape. Audrey’s behavior — and the stark contrast from her characterization on the original show — certainly seems to echo Diane’s tulpa. She is jaded, perpetually angry, and cusses a whole lot. Of course, that could also just be where the progression of years has taken her, but the parallel strikes me as intentional. To me, it doesn’t super matter on a character level whether she is a tulpa or not, because I view the tulpa concept as an extension of the “real” character (just as I do for the similar but slightly distinct doppelganger/dweller on the threshold concept).

Look at Diane: she is raped and she (her tulpa) subsequently becomes disillusioned with the Bureau, losing herself in drink and meaningless sex, while the “real” Diane she once was is hidden away. Once the “real” Cooper returns and Diane sees that he is again the man she loved, Diane is briefly able to become her old, less angry self. However, she quickly comes to realize that the true real Cooper is a mix of the kind quirky exterior she (and we) thought she knew, AND the man who raped her. They are one and the same, and she realizes she was wrong to think she could get past the trauma so easily simply because Cooper briefly acted like he used to. She (I believe) then realizes that she needs to reconcile the two sides of herself as well (remember that some other version of her was lurking at the motel just before the sex scene).

All of which is to say, whether Audrey is a tulpa or not, it pretty much says the same thing to me about her character development — one approach is just doing it in a more stylized/metaphorical way. But on a literal story/mythology level, Audrey sure seems to have gone somewhere, and there are strong hints that there is a supernatural element to her state. I don’t particularly factor TFD into my feelings on Audrey in the show, particularly since DKL wrote those scenes entirely without Mark and we don’t know whether they ever even discussed their meaning (we just know that Mark read them and gave his seal of approval). TFD version of Audrey’s history reads like Mark trying to salvage as much as he could of the original coauthored script, and shoe-horning in the filmed material as a footnote at the end.

The fact that Will saw Mr. C leaving ICU and not carrying Audrey doesn’t negate the possibility that he took her somewhere supernatural, for me. Granted, most of the times we see characters crossing over to the other side, it involves going to a specific real world physical location (coordinates and all). But we don’t know the mechanics of pulling off a tulpa-switcheroo (other than what we see Gerard do in the Red Room); we do know that Bob has given Mr. C some powers, and we know that sex magick is an element of Thelema that the series has played with (including, arguably, in Part 18 with Diane being forced to revisit her rape). We also know that doppelganger-switcheroos apparently happen through electrical sockets. Given all that, I’m not willing to discount the idea that Mr. C imprisoned the “real” Audrey somewhere, simply because he didn’t literally drag her physical body out of Calhoun Memorial.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Xavi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:15 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:....



It's all been noticed before, but it is remarkable that you leave out the American Girl parallel.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3730&start=360#p114161
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby laughingpinecone » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:18 am

Agreed with all your points, especially that in the grand scheme of things, tulpa or no tulpa we're still talking about $character and how they relate to their trauma. Diane's arc spells it out loud and clear.

What I meant by the TFD connection is that her early days - which were likely co-plotted as the background of her original plotline, as we know for sure that TFD shows where Audrey was originally meant to end up before the whole Fenn tug-of-war, and THEN leads up to her show storyline - don't seem to bear any mark of the trauma tulpas stand for. Diane got colder, drank and found some respite through casual sex. Dougie 1.0 also showed classing lynchian trauma shorthand through his addiction to gambling and sex. Audrey, on the other hand? Audrey decided to keep the baby, fought to gain financial independence from the family who'd let her down over and over, finished her studies, got her business going... it's not the same thing, it's not even in the same ballpark. That's what I mean when I say that this sounds like regular Audrey. That whole "never tested for paternity; probably knew deep down" bit sounds to me a lot more like she buried that trauma deep down and fiercely kept going, like the astrological Leo and the Queen of Diamonds she is.
Whatever truly messed her up (made her disappear, in classic Peaksy symbolism, with trademark drinking and infidelity before it! Pulling out all the stops here, Mark...) happened later, it's the aftermath of marrying her accountant, and it bugs me that we don't have enough hints to parse what it /means/ for the character. I do believe that, not unlike Diane, at some point she will have to come to terms with the fact that Cooper-twice-removed-but-still-ultimately-Cooper raped her. But is it connected to Charlie's supernatural aspects (and we're fully back to show canon now)? Maybe, maybe not! It feels to me like her breakdown is wholly centered on herself, on her foundational dichotomy between the girl who wondered "isn't it too dreamy" dancing in a diner and the businesswoman that her father would've wanted her to become and that was effectively 'in the cards' (her card, the Queen of Diamonds) for her. Then again, DKL working with a plotline that involves sexual trauma and focusing on something else would be the biggest plot twist in his entire filmography, so, who knows.
We don't even know when/what/where the white room is. The show makes a point of grounding all three of her settings both in the show's shared reality AND in some kind of supernatural dimension, and TFD only doubles down on that, so I'm certainly not gonna claim that this or that part of Audrey's plot is more or less metaphysical than the others.
tl;dr there's certainly something going on with Audrey but I don't think it fits the more codified forms of fractured identitites we see elsewhere (and 'codified' is a biiig word for Peaks anyway :lol: ). Just like the new show introduced tulpas as a different kind of identity split than the old doppelgangers, I think that Lynch, having to come up with a last-minute replacement plot for Audrey, had exactly zero qualms showing something new and different, based on his perception of the character's specific situation instead of 'established worldbuilding' (as if :lol: ).
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:56 am

Xavi wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:....



It's all been noticed before, but it is remarkable that you leave out the American Girl parallel.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3730&start=360#p114161


I believe we’ve discussed it before. I get what you’re saying, and I understand the appeal of Cooper encountering (and being helped by) both of “his” rape victims in the Mansion Room, but I personally don’t see it. The “coma” parallel aside, there wasn’t even a superficial connection between the characters of Audrey and Ronette on the original show characterwise, storywise, thematically. Whereas Diane becoming a faceless mutilated entity is so perfectly suited to her character and her struggle, Audrey becoming a Ronette lookalike just feels...arbitrary. Of course, I have no desire to discourage you from whatever interpretation of the show works for you, but I see it differently.

For me, to some extent, the fact that Ronette appears as “American Girl” perhaps symbolizes the fact that to Cooper, all girls/women are to some extent fungible, another damsel to be saved (sort of hinted at in Episode 29, with the interchangeability of Annie and Caroline). Ronette, as the damsel in distress who survived — as well as the one responsible for Cooper’s arrival in Twin Peaks and his entire subsequent journey — sort of becomes the face of all girls/women (and, ironically enough, rescues HIM).
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:07 am

laughingpinecone wrote:What I meant by the TFD connection is that her early days - which were likely co-plotted as the background of her original plotline, as we know for sure that TFD shows where Audrey was originally meant to end up before the whole Fenn tug-of-war, and THEN leads up to her show storyline - don't seem to bear any mark of the trauma tulpas stand for. Diane got colder, drank and found some respite through casual sex. Dougie 1.0 also showed classing lynchian trauma shorthand through his addiction to gambling and sex. Audrey, on the other hand? Audrey decided to keep the baby, fought to gain financial independence from the family who'd let her down over and over, finished her studies, got her business going... it's not the same thing, it's not even in the same ballpark. That's what I mean when I say that this sounds like regular Audrey. That whole "never tested for paternity; probably knew deep down" bit sounds to me a lot more like she buried that trauma deep down and fiercely kept going, like the astrological Leo and the Queen of Diamonds she is.


I agree with you completely, if we’re taking TFD into account. And I have no doubt that the backstory from TFD was more or less Audrey’s original scripted arc (this has been confirmed by multiple sources). Ergo, in the original script, Audrey probably wasn’t a tulpa, at least not immediately following the rape.

However, DKL threw out the entire initial arc to appease Fenn and came up with something RADICALLY different. At that point, I think there’s a strong possibility that DKL saw an opportunity to tie Audrey’s character more closely to Diane’s arc, and certainly didn’t feel bound to the earlier scripted material that (as far as he was concerned then) wouldn’t see the light of day. So, in the show’s continuity and DKL’s intent in writing those scenes, I think there is a strong argument to be made that Audrey was tulpa-fied right after the rape, like Diane. Mark’s work in TFD scuttles this, but IMO this is one of those instances where David wrote without Mark and vice versa, and the two came to contradictory outcomes. YMMV, of course.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:27 pm

Are we assuming Diane created her own tulpa? I suppose that's one way to look at it. I guess I interpreted it that the Diane Tulpa was created by Cooper. Over time she became this construct who he recorded his thoughts to via tape recorder, which manifested into tulpa form.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Diane » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:09 pm

I assumed Diane was a real person who was raped by Mr. C, who then created a Diane tulpa to help him. Then somehow the real Diane took the form of Naido to wait for the real Cooper.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:17 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:....



It's all been noticed before, but it is remarkable that you leave out the American Girl parallel.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3730&start=360#p114161


I believe we’ve discussed it before. I get what you’re saying, and I understand the appeal of Cooper encountering (and being helped by) both of “his” rape victims in the Mansion Room, but I personally don’t see it. The “coma” parallel aside, there wasn’t even a superficial connection between the characters of Audrey and Ronette on the original show characterwise, storywise, thematically. Whereas Diane becoming a faceless mutilated entity is so perfectly suited to her character and her struggle, Audrey becoming a Ronette lookalike just feels...arbitrary. Of course, I have no desire to discourage you from whatever interpretation of the show works for you, but I see it differently.

For me, to some extent, the fact that Ronette appears as “American Girl” perhaps symbolizes the fact that to Cooper, all girls/women are to some extent fungible, another damsel to be saved (sort of hinted at in Episode 29, with the interchangeability of Annie and Caroline). Ronette, as the damsel in distress who survived — as well as the one responsible for Cooper’s arrival in Twin Peaks and his entire subsequent journey — sort of becomes the face of all girls/women (and, ironically enough, rescues HIM).


Even if Ronette wasn't raped by Mr. C - and I can't remember if she was raped by Leland/Bob or not - she did suffer a rough night back in 1989, appearing with cigarette burns on her body and sexual torment, and so she is a victim of abuse all the same. Perhaps this is why she is in the mauve room? A part of her stowed away like every American Girl who has suffered sexual abuse?
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:30 pm

For years (probably since the Pilot aired), fans have theorized that Diane is a construct of Dale’s imagination to help him think out loud (or was possibly the name of his tape recorder). I think TP:TR is absolutely having fun with that theory to some extent. As with so many aspects of this show, it’s functioning on a bunch of levels of reality and dream at once with no clear answers. On one level, it seems pretty clear that Diane was Dale’s flesh-and-blood secretary in 1989. But given all the tulpa stuff, it seems at least possible (and I think the show wants us to consider this) that Dale dreamt the “real” Diane into being as a sort of imaginary friend. Whether or not this is the case, I believe the series also wants us to think about the gender politics of a man treating a woman solely as a receptacle for his thoughts (see the Naido incarnation, stripped of her face and identity and unable to speak except in tape recorder-like chitters...Diane eventually turns the tables by covering Dale’s face during sex). And then there’s the strange detail that Candi, Mandi and Sandi’s names fit the Naido/“Dian-O” naming pattern. Are these three women, hardly the epitomes of strong female characterization (two don’t even speak) meant to be further “imprisoned” incarnations of Diane? (We know that there are at least two Dianes still running around in Part 18, even after the tulpa is destroyed.) Is there even a “real” Diane, or just a hopelessly fractured personality? (If Naido is Dian-O, is “our” Diane actually “Dian-E”...sister of Janey-E?)

As far as the plot logistics of who “created” the Diane tulpa, I prefer it if Diane did, as a method for coping with her trauma. I like this much more as it functions on a psychological/metaphorical level that fits with TP’s core themes...and it also preserves Diane’s autonomy. However, from a purely plot standpoint (much less satisfying IMO), there is certainly a strong argument to be made that Mr. C created the tulpa so he would have another agent to control (and also so he could have a dark version of the “real” Cooper and Diane’s relationship).
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby Xavi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:41 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:

It's all been noticed before, but it is remarkable that you leave out the American Girl parallel.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3730&start=360#p114161


I believe we’ve discussed it before. I get what you’re saying, and I understand the appeal of Cooper encountering (and being helped by) both of “his” rape victims in the Mansion Room, but I personally don’t see it. The “coma” parallel aside, there wasn’t even a superficial connection between the characters of Audrey and Ronette on the original show characterwise, storywise, thematically. Whereas Diane becoming a faceless mutilated entity is so perfectly suited to her character and her struggle, Audrey becoming a Ronette lookalike just feels...arbitrary. Of course, I have no desire to discourage you from whatever interpretation of the show works for you, but I see it differently.

For me, to some extent, the fact that Ronette appears as “American Girl” perhaps symbolizes the fact that to Cooper, all girls/women are to some extent fungible, another damsel to be saved (sort of hinted at in Episode 29, with the interchangeability of Annie and Caroline). Ronette, as the damsel in distress who survived — as well as the one responsible for Cooper’s arrival in Twin Peaks and his entire subsequent journey — sort of becomes the face of all girls/women (and, ironically enough, rescues HIM).


Even if Ronette wasn't raped by Mr. C - and I can't remember if she was raped by Leland/Bob or not - she did suffer a rough night back in 1989, appearing with cigarette burns on her body and sexual torment, and so she is a victim of abuse all the same. Perhaps this is why she is in the mauve room? A part of her stowed away like every American Girl who has suffered sexual abuse?


It seems that you and Reindeer have difficulty to separate actress from character. American Girl is not Ronette Pulaski ! She is a completely different character; i.c. she is Audrey's hidden true self abiding in the Mauve Zone, which is the state of non-existence, just like Naido, who is/was the hidden true self of Diane. Of course YMMV, but this is my way of connecting the dots, based on my understanding of Lynchian symmetry.
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Re: Is Audrey a tulpa?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Xavi wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I believe we’ve discussed it before. I get what you’re saying, and I understand the appeal of Cooper encountering (and being helped by) both of “his” rape victims in the Mansion Room, but I personally don’t see it. The “coma” parallel aside, there wasn’t even a superficial connection between the characters of Audrey and Ronette on the original show characterwise, storywise, thematically. Whereas Diane becoming a faceless mutilated entity is so perfectly suited to her character and her struggle, Audrey becoming a Ronette lookalike just feels...arbitrary. Of course, I have no desire to discourage you from whatever interpretation of the show works for you, but I see it differently.

For me, to some extent, the fact that Ronette appears as “American Girl” perhaps symbolizes the fact that to Cooper, all girls/women are to some extent fungible, another damsel to be saved (sort of hinted at in Episode 29, with the interchangeability of Annie and Caroline). Ronette, as the damsel in distress who survived — as well as the one responsible for Cooper’s arrival in Twin Peaks and his entire subsequent journey — sort of becomes the face of all girls/women (and, ironically enough, rescues HIM).


Even if Ronette wasn't raped by Mr. C - and I can't remember if she was raped by Leland/Bob or not - she did suffer a rough night back in 1989, appearing with cigarette burns on her body and sexual torment, and so she is a victim of abuse all the same. Perhaps this is why she is in the mauve room? A part of her stowed away like every American Girl who has suffered sexual abuse?


It seems that you and Reindeer have difficulty to separate actress from character. American Girl is not Ronette Pulaski ! She is a completely different character; i.c. she is Audrey's hidden true self abiding in the Mauve Zone, which is the state of non-existence, just like Naido, who is/was the hidden true self of Diane. Of course YMMV, but this is my way of connecting the dots, based on my understanding of Lynchian symmetry.


I was thinking of her as more of a stand-in/representation, actually. Not Ronette exactly but a sign of another abused girl. Hence, the name: American Girl.
Last edited by LateReg on Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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