Who is Alice Tremond?

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Diane
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Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Diane » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm

I read that Valero didn't have gas stations until 2000, so unless this is a continuity error, it seems that Dale and Carrie are in the future, not the past. The car Cooper is driving looks a bit old, but if they are pre-2017, then Sarah Palmer would be living in the house (unless of course they are just in an alternate reality entirely). So, if it is the future, would it then follow that Alice Tremond is the wife of Mrs. Tremond's grandson who was studying magic?

When Cooper leaves the lodge it seems they are in the past, maybe the 60's (judging from the old car and the motel), until they cross the 430 line and everything changes.

I just finished watching season 3 for the second time, and I noticed something that I didn't notice before. The entrance to the Fireman's house is a little gold pond that is similar to the black pond in the sycamore grove (which is the entrance to the black lodge). So the Fireman must live in the white lodge.

Cooper seems to be trying to lead Laura to the gold pond, but when she disappears he is suddenly in the black lodge, and at the "curtain call" when he meets Diane, you see the black pond.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby laughingpinecone » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:44 pm

I rather suspect they're spirits - they use both the names that the grandmother and grandson leeched off other people in the old show and movie, Tremond and Chalfont respectively. ...actually, come to think of it, going by their old M.O. they should've introduced themselves as the Palmers, right? I wonder how that would've been received... :D

As for the White Lodge, it's interesting that Lynch said in the Cahiers du Cinema interview (https://imgur.com/gallery/JJcS1) that he didn't show the White Lodge because it's too subjective... whatever that means!
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Soolsma
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Soolsma » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:48 am

Wow, okay, so no white lodge according to Lynch. Or at least he's saying we didn't directly see it.

Here's the translated part that pertains to that. For people who aren't adept at French, like me. (yes this is google translate, please do correct it.)

Did you know from the start that the series ended in front of the Palmer's house?
Not at all early but before filming, yes

And not, finally, in the white lodge.
It's weird. I think it's so much a matter of subjectivity, that if you saw that, it wouldn't work. It's different according to each one. It is rather an interior sensation, something suggested in an impressionistic way. I don't know, it's very abstract. Maybe Angelo Badalamenti could do it, with music.

You want to convey the idea, but not show it, not illustrate.
That's it, maybe...


I guess this should topple some theories.

As for the Tremonds, I've come to regard them as.... messengers of sorts. I feel like Alice is some sort of placeholder, like the second miss Tremond was in the originals (the one who opens the door when Donna brings Cooper). Maybe a tulpa to make it seem like nothing is out of the ordinary.
Last edited by Soolsma on Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:56 am

The car Cooper is driving in part 18 is the same 2003 black Lincoln Town Car (or at least a replica of the exact same model) that Mr. C is driving when he had his car wreck in part 3.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:33 am

Diane wrote:When Cooper leaves the lodge it seems they are in the past, maybe the 60's (judging from the old car and the motel), until they cross the 430 line and everything changes.


There is a TV in the motel room that is at least ‘80s-era
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:46 am

Another possibility is Alice is related to the Mrs. Tremond that gave Donna the missing page in 2.09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db9to1uazmU
Last edited by chromereflectsimage on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:53 am

I’d theorized that the Fireman’s might be the White Lodge (mostly due to the gold pool which, as noted, seems like the exact opposite of the oil pool), but I also suspected that it probably wasn’t that simple. It sounds like DKL may have found the challenge that entices him back to TP. ;)
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:12 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’d theorized that the Fireman’s might be the White Lodge (mostly due to the gold pool which, as noted, seems like the exact opposite of the oil pool), but I also suspected that it probably wasn’t that simple. It sounds like DKL may have found the challenge that entices him back to TP. ;)


The White and Black Lodge mythology is rather interesting to think about, as Mark Frost borrowed the concept from Dion Fortune’s Psychic Self-Defense and introduced it into TP mythology in the back half of season 2. Originally a black and white version of the Great Northern was going to be the Black Lodge, until Lynch changed it. I think this is where a lot of confusion comes in regarding whether the red room is the black lodge or not.

In Lynch's FWWM, we do have Annie specifically mention the good Dale the lodge rather white or black. Mr. C mockingly says 'What they call the Black Lodge' in The Return. Was there any other time the lodge was mentioned in the Return?
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:24 am

chromereflectsimage wrote:The White and Black Lodge mythology is rather interesting to think about, as Mark Frost borrowed the concept from Dion Fortune’s Psychic Self-Defense and introduced it into TP mythology in the back half of season 2. Originally a black and white version of the Great Northern was going to be the Black Lodge, until Lynch changed it. I think this is where a lot of confusion comes in regarding whether the red room is the black lodge or not.

In Lynch's FWWM, we do have Annie specifically mention the good Dale the lodge rather white or black. Mr. C mockingly says 'What they call the Black Lodge' in The Return. Was there any other time the lodge was mentioned in the Return?


Nope, I’m pretty sure that was the sole reference. I’ve been wondering who the “they” is that Mr. C is referring to. Occultists? Native Americans (per Hawk)? Blue Book/Blue Rose? TP fans? :lol:

I think there’s still a decent chance that the Red Room is just the waiting room and we still haven’t seen the true Black Lodge either. (Also note that, per TFD, the motel where Jeffries is staying was called—when it existed in the real world—the Dutchman’s Lodge!).
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:38 pm

My going theory for a while now has been that some of the Lodge spirits operate on what TV Tropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality" - meaning they aren't easily classified as good or evil or even "gray" so much as they just operate by a set of rules that we don't understand. More broadly, applying human logic to explain their behavior simply breaks down at some point, and the Tremonds are perhaps Example A of this. They clearly have some association with all the strange goings-on, but what (if anything) they're trying to accomplish with their occasional appearances remains obscure. They supply clues to Donna and Cooper in Season 2, they may have had something to do with Agent Desmond's disappearance, they are in the company of BOB and LMFAP in Jeffries' flashback, they seem to be observing Laura shortly before she is killed, and then they show up in the former Palmer house. So any clues as to their allegiances are contradictory, and then there are the things they do that are just plain odd, like the kid's mask and his creamed corn trick, or him and his grandmother disappearing to be replaced by the younger woman who claims no one like that ever lived there.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lynch and Frost (and maybe Engels too given their FWWM appearance?) don't know what they're "really" up to either, instead using their appearances to disorient the characters and the viewers so as to get this very point across. I've sometimes thought that Carrie's scream is not just remembering her past and/or alternate life as Laura, but because she's gained some brief awareness of the nature of the forces that she and Cooper are encountering, and they are terrifying in their sheer incomprehensibility.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:44 pm

FlyingSquirrel wrote:My going theory for a while now has been that some of the Lodge spirits operate on what TV Tropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality" - meaning they aren't easily classified as good or evil or even "gray" so much as they just operate by a set of rules that we don't understand.

This is how I've seen it ever since learning to like FWWM. They are otherworldly beings whose presence the human characters are only partially aware of, and even less is shown to the audience. Attempting to apply human morals to them is pointless.

FlyingSquirrel wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if Lynch and Frost (and maybe Engels too given their FWWM appearance?) don't know what they're "really" up to either, instead using their appearances to disorient the characters and the viewers so as to get this very point across

This I think is very likely, as well. They are used mostly for the cool effect, not for telling a coherent story.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby BGate » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:31 am

Soolsma wrote:Wow, okay, so no white lodge according to Lynch. Or at least he's saying we didn't directly see it.

Here's the translated part that pertains to that. For people who aren't adept at French, like me. (yes this is google translate, please do correct it.)

Did you know from the start that the series ended in front of the Palmer's house?
Not at all early but before filming, yes

And not, finally, in the white lodge.
It's weird. I think it's so much a matter of subjectivity, that if you saw that, it wouldn't work. It's different according to each one. It is rather an interior sensation, something suggested in an impressionistic way. I don't know, it's very abstract. Maybe Angelo Badalamenti could do it, with music.

You want to convey the idea, but not show it, not illustrate.
That's it, maybe...


I guess this should topple some theories.

As for the Tremonds, I've come to regard them as.... messengers of sorts. I feel like Alice is some sort of placeholder, like the second miss Tremond was in the originals (the one who opens the door when Donna brings Cooper). Maybe a tulpa to make it seem like nothing is out of the ordinary.


Where did you find the translated version of the interview? I'd love to read the whole thing.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby bosguy1981 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:17 am

BGate wrote:Where did you find the translated version of the interview? I'd love to read the whole thing.


Same here! I manually typed some of the French into Google Translate but it was too long to do the whole thing. But one interesting thing I hadn't read in other interviews: when Lynch talks about how Mark Frost reached out to him with an idea as a starting point for the new story, the interviewer asked David Lynch what Mark Frost's initial idea was. Lynch says that Frost had an idea of Cooper turning up in an abandoned home in Las Vegas, nothing more. And they went from there.

He also speaks again about the many cast members who died during the time-frame of the production. He reveals that Marv Rosand (who played Toad) died four days after he finished his work, "just like Catherine Coulson."
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:28 am

Wow! So THAT was the much-talked-about in-point that gave them both a way in to the story? L/F work in mysterious ways.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:32 am

bosguy1981 wrote:
BGate wrote:Where did you find the translated version of the interview? I'd love to read the whole thing.


Same here! I manually typed some of the French into Google Translate but it was too long to do the whole thing. But one interesting thing I hadn't read in other interviews: when Lynch talks about how Mark Frost reached out to him with an idea as a starting point for the new story, the interviewer asked David Lynch what Mark Frost's initial idea was. Lynch says that Frost had an idea of Cooper turning up in an abandoned home in Las Vegas, nothing more. And they went from there.

He also speaks again about the many cast members who died during the time-frame of the production. He reveals that Marv Rosand (who played Toad) died four days after he finished his work, "just like Catherine Coulson."


Full Translation:

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... _lynch_by/

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