Who is Alice Tremond?

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bosguy1981
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby bosguy1981 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:18 am

Thanks so much for sharing the link!
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Xavi
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Xavi » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:09 am

Nope, as a matter of fact there are 6 mentions of the word "lodge" in TPS3.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby yaxomoxay » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:25 pm

Xavi wrote:Nope, as a matter of fact there are 6 mentions of the word "lodge" in TPS3.


Do you have a transcript of the show?


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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:44 pm

Thoughts on the interview:

Interesting that DKL seems to endorse Jacoby’s viewpoint to some extent. L/F’s feelings on Jacoby are really fascinating to me. I initially thought both were satirizing the Alex Jones type of media personality/conspiracy theorist, albeit with more a liberal slant that reflects a few of Mark’s sincere political views. Then, after reading the sympathetic portrait of Jacoby in TFD, I got the sense that Mark actually intended Jacoby’s rhetoric more or less in earnest, and that any satire/taking the piss was on the directing and performance end. After having read DKL’s comments here—while there is still an undeniable comedic element to Tamblyn’s frothing delivery—it seems that both Lynch and Frost more or less view Jacoby as a positive force for potential change, which is...interesting. (Indeed, the fact that Jacoby in TFD references the Hindu concept of Kali Yuga—which DKL also discusses at length in this interview—may even imply that Mark sees some of DKL in Jacoby when writing the character!).

Not a shock at all, but DKL seems to view the White Lodge and the gold seeds as heavily linked to TM and Hinduism.

Interesting that he claims he already had a vague concept of what Judy was during FWWM. I’d never really gotten that sense before.

He seems to say that no scenes were moved between Parts, but I find this difficult to believe, especially given blatant stuff like Dougie’s game of catch. I wonder if this is a translation issue, as the rest of his answer is talking about cutting scenes as opposed to moving them (and he even does seem to imply that scenes were moved somewhat extensively).

Anyone have any ideas what the third picture is in Gordon’s office? I’ll have to rewatch that scene.

Overall, a really fascinating insight into his feelings on conventional narrative and how this season was at least an unconscious reaction to that if not a conscious one.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:22 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
Xavi wrote:Nope, as a matter of fact there are 6 mentions of the word "lodge" in TPS3.


Do you have a transcript of the show?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


These are the best I’ve found: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.u ... twin-peaks

It’s just the spoken dialogue (no character name slugs, and the burned-in backwards-speak “translation” subtitles are missing), but it otherwise seems to be accurately based on the subtitles.

Xavi is presumaby referring to the opening scene of Part 7, when Hawk quotes Annie by way of Laura’s diary, re: the good Dale being in the Lodge, and he and Frank discuss the diary entry and Cooper’s exit from “the Lodge” in Episode 29, using the word “lodge” five times in total.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby IcedOver » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:57 pm

FlyingSquirrel wrote:My going theory for a while now has been that some of the Lodge spirits operate on what TV Tropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality" - meaning they aren't easily classified as good or evil or even "gray" so much as they just operate by a set of rules that we don't understand.


That's pretty much how I look at them and really much of this series. It can pretty much be summed up by the "Ronnie Rocket" subtitle (referenced in this show) "The Absurd Mystery of the Strange Forces of Existence". It doesn't really matter what they're up to. Alice, aside from the tired use (again) by Lynch of that name, is just meant to throw the viewer off, not much more than that.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:49 pm

IcedOver wrote:
FlyingSquirrel wrote:My going theory for a while now has been that some of the Lodge spirits operate on what TV Tropes calls "Blue and Orange Morality" - meaning they aren't easily classified as good or evil or even "gray" so much as they just operate by a set of rules that we don't understand.


That's pretty much how I look at them and really much of this series. It can pretty much be summed up by the "Ronnie Rocket" subtitle (referenced in this show) "The Absurd Mystery of the Strange Forces of Existence". It doesn't really matter what they're up to. Alice, aside from the tired use (again) by Lynch of that name, is just meant to throw the viewer off, not much more than that.


And, I think, just as importantly, to throw the characters off. Pretty much any time the Tremonds/Chalfonts show up, someone (principally Cooper, Laura, and Donna) ends up confused and disoriented.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:39 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Thoughts on the interview:

He seems to say that no scenes were moved between Parts, but I find this difficult to believe, especially given blatant stuff like Dougie’s game of catch. I wonder if this is a translation issue, as the rest of his answer is talking about cutting scenes as opposed to moving them (and he even does seem to imply that scenes were moved somewhat extensively).


It's not a translation issue. I assumed there was a missing word there, such as "also." So I checked further and someone in the comments translated properly and it's clear that Lynch is talking about two separate things:

"At the beginning, I experimented with things like this, but, at the end, no, nothing was moved. I think, by the way, that nothing was cut during editing. Everything that was shot is in the series."

I'd also like to know what the third painting is.

Is Lynch also saying in the interview that he'd be open to screening The Return theatrically and removing the credits? Or at least saying that it would require removing the credits? It's cool that he's at least thought of that, so you never know, a seamless theatrical edit might one day exist.

Edited to add: Re: Lynch not moving stuff around...there is a possibility that a scene like Dougie playing catch wasn't in the script, and was improvised on set. He does talk about certain scenes not really appearing in the script, I believe, which he would decide where to place later. The scenes that seem to be out of order are more so the ones that call attention to time itself. It would be interesting if those scenes - such as Bobby stating that "earlier today" they found something having to do with his dad in Part 13, even though that happened way back in Part 9 and we saw Bobby at the diner since then in Part 11, are intentionally somewhat out of order, which I presumed at the time was partially to make the viewer really get uneasy about how slowly time was passing before eventually slingshotting us forward (Parts 10 thru 13 seem to especially be playing that kind of game with time, since the viewer is waiting for Bobby and friends to go to Jack Rabbit's and would have expected it to happen sooner than it did) as well as feel that time might be out of joint. We later learn that Mr. C's path is totally linear (as are the paths of most characters), yet we are seeing portions of his story long after connective portions of others' stories have occurred (the text message he receives in Part 15 was sent in a much earlier part).
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Leacock » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:59 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Interesting that he claims he already had a vague concept of what Judy was during FWWM. I’d never really gotten that sense before.



Wow! I had thought it had been revealed by someone at least that Judy was originally supposed to be Jocelyn Packard's sister.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:11 am

Leacock wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Interesting that he claims he already had a vague concept of what Judy was during FWWM. I’d never really gotten that sense before.



Wow! I had thought it had been revealed by someone at least that Judy was originally supposed to be Jocelyn Packard's sister.


It has, by FWWM co-writer Robert Engels. This plotline was related to why Philip Jeffries was in Buenas Aires. Of course these two things aren't neccesarily in opposition to each other.
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Xavi
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Xavi » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:31 am

Major Briggs shared with me and Cooper his discovery of an entity, an extreme negative force called in olden times "Jowday." Over time, it's become "Judy."


Am I to believe this "Judy was originally supposed to be Jocelyn Packard's sister" is true?
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:55 am

Engels’s memory seems pretty iffy, and I think the whole “Judy as Josie’s sister” thing has been blown way out of proportion from Engels’s actual noncommital comments. Here’s everything I can find from him on the subject:

A 2002 Wrapped in Plastic interview (issue 58):
https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... otes_from/

Engels discusses the fact that Jeffries’s journey was supposed to tie into wherever Josie has gone, as well as Earle, and that both characters were going to be in “Brazil, or something” (with someone else’s voice coming out of Josie). The interviewer then brings up an early draft which mentions Judy’s sister and asks if that was meant to be Josie. Engels responds, noncommitally, “Yes. Yes. I think that is true.”

If you read the whole interview (or at least the transcribed portions on Reddit), he is clearly very vague on the details (he doesn’t even remember that Jeffries is in Argentina, not Brazil, and seems to barely even remember the famous “two Coopers” season 2 cliffhanger!), and he also does not choose his words at all carefully. He walks back his earlier comments on a “creamed corn planet,” saying he was being “somewhat facetious” and calling planet “the wrong word” and saying that DKL would call it “another place,” not a planet. Interestingly, he does repeatedly mention the concept of portals, which we ultimately saw on TP:TR.

Next, a 2010 interview, in which he is asked if Josie was meant to be Judy’s sister, and he just flat-out says he doesn’t remember (which, I would argue, is also what he should have told Wrapped in Plastic in 2002):
http://moviehole.net/2017115603twin-pea ... -interview

Finally, a 2014 interview:
http://archive.alternativenation.net/ex ... cter-more/

Again, he says Earle and Josie were meant to be in Buenos Aires, but when asked about Judy’s identity and whether she is Josie’s sister, he responds, “That’s a good question. I don’t remember. [...] But boy, you got me, you got me. It was pretty cool to see that stuff, though, I remember that.”

The only thing Engels seems to know about Judy is that she’s named after his sister-in-law.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:49 am

I will have to dig up my old WIP issues from the basement to elaborate, but there were two interviews with Engels (maybe 10 issues apart or such). Both contained info on Judy as Josie's sister.
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Re: Who is Alice Tremond?

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:48 am

Personally I think that translation is kind of fluid - I still think the B&W/purple place a.k.a. "The Fireman's House by the Sea" is the White Lodge. Or a sublevel/antechamber of it. YMMV. That's the beauty of the show.
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