No Ray Wise?

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Mr. Strawberry
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:04 pm

Mordeen wrote:Hello again peeps.

I thought I'd pop in and noticed this thread. I can state unequivocally that the only contributing factor to Ray's extremely limited presence in The Return was David Lynch.

-Mordeen

This could imply that either

a) Mark Frost had nothing to do with the decision

or

b) Mark Frost wanted more Ray Wise but David Lynch did not
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby mtwentz » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:46 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
Mordeen wrote:Hello again peeps.

I thought I'd pop in and noticed this thread. I can state unequivocally that the only contributing factor to Ray's extremely limited presence in The Return was David Lynch.

-Mordeen

This could imply that either

a) Mark Frost had nothing to do with the decision

or

b) Mark Frost wanted more Ray Wise but David Lynch did not


Mordeen's info has always been solid, so it is very disappointing that Lynch cut down on Ray's role in The Return. Now the only question is: why?
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Saturn's child » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:43 pm

From my point of view, the Return was (on one level!) about the tyrannical/negative aspect of the Mother, contrasted with the original run / FWWM which focussed on the tyrannical/negative Father. Seeing as Sarah was used sparingly -- but effectively -- in the Return (despite the feeling that she hovers in the background throughout), I can see how featuring Leland overly much would ruin this feeling. Maybe there's more behind the scenes stuff going on, but for me this makes thematic sense. More Leland means he's either the baddie again, or otherwise he gets perhaps too much redemption (I know there are many ways around this, but it would be a danger).

The above is just my point of view. I absolutely love Ray as Leland, but I also don't think Lynch/Frost (or in this case, just Lynch) owe actors anything if it doesn't benefit the whole. Other than that, good to see you around again Mordeen!
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:55 am

I agree Saturn's Child. It did not seem there was really much of a place for Leland in the story.

At the same time, Mordeens tidbit is tantalizing. It could mean Frost wanted more scenes with Leland but Lynch thought having too much Leland would hurt the Mother storyline.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Soolsma » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:10 am

I think the tidbit straight from Ray Wise himself as Mordeen personally met him and (IIRC) had dinner with him.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:05 am

Soolsma wrote:I think the tidbit straight from Ray Wise himself as Mordeen personally met him and (IIRC) had dinner with him.


Ray and his wife were close personal friends to my parents (who have since died), dating back to before I was born. The picture I posted with him and myself was from my going away party before I moved to Montana from SoCal and we took a bunch because I would likely never see them again in person. There are more pics with "other people" but I was politely asked not to share them.

No, Ray did not tell me himself. He respected the NDA because he is a consummate professional and a stand-up guy, but I can assure you my info is accurate. The NDA is still active and this forum is still being monitored, so that's all I can say.

As for The Return? I thought it was phenomenal. It took a recent rewatch (which prompted MY return here) for me to settle on an opinion of it. I would say it was as much the sum of its parts as the original run, both good and bad (Wally Brando is the new Little Nicky), and it accomplished exactly what it set out to portray, even if it deviated from the original concept.

Thanks for the kind words of welcome. Nice to see these familiar "faces" again after all this time.

-Mordeen
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:44 pm

Mordeen wrote:
As for The Return? I thought it was phenomenal. It took a recent rewatch (which prompted MY return here) for me to settle on an opinion of it. I would say it was as much the sum of its parts as the original run, both good and bad (Wally Brando is the new Little Nicky), and it accomplished exactly what it set out to portray, even if it deviated from the original concept.


Care to elaborate on this? And welcome back!

Other than that, someone here mentioned that your info was always solid. I beg to differ on one point: if I didn't mistake you for someone else, I think you hinted several times - back when we were eagerly anticipating the new season and official production info was second to none - that the new series will display a number of surprises in terms of participating actors, ie. it will contain certain acting names which haven't been announced by the official disclosure (ie. the released list of participating actors that got out some months prior to the premiere). As we know, that never happened. Now, I'm not implying you deliberately tried to mislead those not in the know; I am wondering, however, if at some point you heard solid info in the regard you reported on but then things took a different turn on the screen and those surprise appearances you hinted at simply didn't happen. In other words, I'm asking if you were surprised yourself that the official acting list was the one that eventually wound up on the screen after all. I'd be much obliged if you'd care to answer.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
Mordeen wrote:
As for The Return? I thought it was phenomenal. It took a recent rewatch (which prompted MY return here) for me to settle on an opinion of it. I would say it was as much the sum of its parts as the original run, both good and bad (Wally Brando is the new Little Nicky), and it accomplished exactly what it set out to portray, even if it deviated from the original concept.


Care to elaborate on this? And welcome back!

Other than that, someone here mentioned that your info was always solid. I beg to differ on one point: if I didn't mistake you for someone else, I think you hinted several times - back when we were eagerly anticipating the new season and official production info was second to none - that the new series will display a number of surprises in terms of participating actors, ie. it will contain certain acting names which haven't been announced by the official disclosure (ie. the released list of participating actors that got out some months prior to the premiere). As we know, that never happened. Now, I'm not implying you deliberately tried to mislead those not in the know; I am wondering, however, if at some point you heard solid info in the regard you reported on but then things took a different turn on the screen and those surprise appearances you hinted at simply didn't happen. In other words, I'm asking if you were surprised yourself that the official acting list was the one that eventually wound up on the screen after all. I'd be much obliged if you'd care to answer.


Thanks!

I'd be surprised if it isn't pretty well known by now that Lynch was changing scenes on the fly.

In particular I said to look out for people you might not expect to see in the Lodge that weren't on the list. I wasn't surprised by most of the cast absences, only because I found out shortly after signing off here that a particular source was intentionally misleading me on that subject in order to discredit me for self-preservation purposes during the production witch hunt for leaks. I got in some hot water, but since I wasn't an actual member of the production it only amounted to some harassing calls and emails. I'm humble enough to admit that I allowed myself to get duped by some sketchy info because I got sucked into the craze of collecting spoilers and should have vetted some of the sources better. Oh well.

-Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:39 pm

Mordeen wrote:
Thanks!

I'd be surprised if it isn't pretty well known by now that Lynch was changing scenes on the fly.

In particular I said to look out for people you might not expect to see in the Lodge that weren't on the list. I wasn't surprised by most of the cast absences, only because I found out shortly after signing off here that a particular source was intentionally misleading me on that subject in order to discredit me for self-preservation purposes during the production witch hunt for leaks. I got in some hot water, but since I wasn't an actual member of the production it only amounted to some harassing calls and emails. I'm humble enough to admit that I allowed myself to get duped by some sketchy info because I got sucked into the craze of collecting spoilers and should have vetted some of the sources better. Oh well.

-Mordeen



Ah, it was like that, was it? All's clear now. I still find it incredible that such secrecy and measures were taken (and are, as you say, still being taken!) in regards to a 25-year old show making a limited comeback... Thanks for your reply!
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby LateReg » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Mordeen wrote:
Soolsma wrote:I think the tidbit straight from Ray Wise himself as Mordeen personally met him and (IIRC) had dinner with him.


Ray and his wife were close personal friends to my parents (who have since died), dating back to before I was born. The picture I posted with him and myself was from my going away party before I moved to Montana from SoCal and we took a bunch because I would likely never see them again in person. There are more pics with "other people" but I was politely asked not to share them.

No, Ray did not tell me himself. He respected the NDA because he is a consummate professional and a stand-up guy, but I can assure you my info is accurate. The NDA is still active and this forum is still being monitored, so that's all I can say.

As for The Return? I thought it was phenomenal. It took a recent rewatch (which prompted MY return here) for me to settle on an opinion of it. I would say it was as much the sum of its parts as the original run, both good and bad (Wally Brando is the new Little Nicky), and it accomplished exactly what it set out to portray, even if it deviated from the original concept.

Thanks for the kind words of welcome. Nice to see these familiar "faces" again after all this time.

-Mordeen


It's nice to hear from you. I know you can't elaborate, but even if Lynch was changing scenes on the fly, I'd be curious to know how much that really altered the original concept overall. Did it just mean that the series ended up deviating from the central plot more often than originally intended and ended up an altogether looser, longer thing? Or was the plot itself somehow changed? Or many other options in between, of course. I know we'll probably never know, but for my part I can't imagine/wouldn't want much being different than what we got. As for Ray Wise, all I've ever known is that he's been interested in being a part of anything Lynch does, and I've always felt the feeling was mutual. So without knowing anything, I'd lean toward Lynch simply not needing Wise for this particular project. In his couple scenes, he was incredibly effective, and in the behind the scenes footage, he was extremely jovial.

I will say for the life of me I will never understand how some folks, especially when it aired, think Wally Brando is the equivalent of Little Nicky. It's spot-on casting by a talented comedic actor delivering a monologue that many find to be the funniest moment in the entire series while also containing thematic breadcrumbs that tie directly to the series and Frost's books as well as the series love affair with classic films. I'm not saying any of this ironically because I don't think you have to. The character is a multi-layered curve ball that holds heart, hilarity and substance.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Hester Prynne » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Hoping the forum still being monitored by the powers that be is a positive sign. How long do NDAs last? If a Season 4 doesn't materialize, are the actors released from the agreement at some point? It's ironic that for a production that went to such great lengths to keep everything secret, filming of the very last scene was leaked long before The Return aired!

As for Leland, I love Ray Wise and would have certainly enjoyed seeing more of him, but I agree with Saturn's Child. The Return was about Mother/Judy/Sarah. The original run was focused on Father/Bob/Leland.

As for Wally Brando . . . just . . .no
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:44 pm

Part of the beauty of Twin Peaks fandom is we almost universally have divergent takeaways from it. That's really at the heart of Lynch's gift.

Something that should be noted is that Mark Frost was present from the beginning of principal photography in Washington and then suddenly left, then:

- He's all but completely absent from the promotion of the show in a significant way
- He releases the first book and makes a point on his book tour of contradicting specific facts from the show in his introductory monologues
- Lynch pointedly says the books are "Mark's version"
- Cast members confide that Lynch rewrote scenes on the spot, going wildly off script
- He did this to Mark with the Episode 29 script, literally tearing out the heart of what Mark wrote, which caused a rift between them that lasted decades

History has a habit of repeating itself, so to speak, and Frost wasn't happy about it.

But I just realized I derailed this thread, so back on topic.

Ray was sold a bill of goods for his part in The Return but the box held a lump of coal. He showed up for what was said to be a significant role in the series, only to shoot the same dialogue from two different angles, and poof, he was done. He wasn't mad about it because he's classy like that, but it's not what he was promised when he shot the "Between Two Worlds" extra and was confided in that the gum he liked was coming back in style.

- Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:52 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:Hoping the forum still being monitored by the powers that be is a positive sign. How long do NDAs last? If a Season 4 doesn't materialize, are the actors released from the agreement at some point?


The NDAs are tricky. They apply to the period of time a person was involved in the show, but the protection of that period lasts virtually in perpetuity. And the monitoring of this board by and large continues not because of the ghost of Season 4, but because leaks were coming directly from the production to this forum and a contract is a contract.

- Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby N. Needleman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:07 pm

Frost seemed extremely onboard with the arc and especially the ending of Season 3 in his many post-show interviews, and that's all I'll say about that.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:13 pm

Yes, despite the deviations, the show stuck to the overall concept. But it was no secret that Lynch's off-the-cuff style was prickly.

The Ending...which just might have not been the End, but rather that the beginning was the end. They were playing with that Golden Circle for sure.

-Mordeen
Moving Through Time. . .

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