No Ray Wise?

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eyeboogers
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:53 am

bosguy1981 wrote:Oh, how I would love to read the early versions of the season 3 script!!

I wonder if maybe, just maybe, the dropped scenes that were written were things between Leland and the Man from Another Place in the Lodge and when Michael J. Anderson dropped out, the ideas didn't seem as cool to Lynch if done with either Gerard or the CGI Arm. I wonder what happened there with Ray. Hmmm!


If we are guessing, I'd say "Between Two Worlds" hinted more at the prospect of a severely disturbing Palmer family re-union.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Cappy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:13 am

It kinda felt like the sad version of Leland seen in S3 was more in line with the original series' "Leland as good guy possessed by BOB" than FWWM's "Leland as a horrible monster who is somehow connected to BOB". The mopey old guy who asked Agent Cooper to "find Laura" just seemed to echo the remorse displayed by Leland as he died in ep. 16. Ray Wise didn't seem to be displaying that nuanced fake-remorse that he did a few times during FWWM, but maybe that's just my impression.

It's interesting in that this either shows a shift in Lynch's approach to Leland's character, moving from Leland acting under his own freewill in FWWM back to Leland as hapless puppet from the original series, or Frost re-asserting his original vision of the character as being a hapless puppet of BOB. I'm very fascinated by the parts of Peaks where Lynch and Frost's creative vision clearly diverges, and maybe the character of Leland Palmer is one of those parts.

Overall I'm okay with Ray Wise only appearing in S3 for barely a minute. Obviously I would've liked to see him more, but his character dominated so much of the original series and FWWM that I'm fine with sitting him on the back burner so other performers can get time to shine. Grace Zabriskie for example, who delivered some of the most riveting scenes of S3 and really pushed the boundaries of the "grieving parent with sinister undertones" character archetype previously established by Ray himself.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby LateReg » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:35 am

Cappy wrote:It kinda felt like the sad version of Leland seen in S3 was more in line with the original series' "Leland as good guy possessed by BOB" than FWWM's "Leland as a horrible monster who is somehow connected to BOB". The mopey old guy who asked Agent Cooper to "find Laura" just seemed to echo the remorse displayed by Leland as he died in ep. 16. Ray Wise didn't seem to be displaying that nuanced fake-remorse that he did a few times during FWWM, but maybe that's just my impression.

It's interesting in that this either shows a shift in Lynch's approach to Leland's character, moving from Leland acting under his own freewill in FWWM back to Leland as hapless puppet from the original series, or Frost re-asserting his original vision of the character as being a hapless puppet of BOB. I'm very fascinated by the parts of Peaks where Lynch and Frost's creative vision clearly diverges, and maybe the character of Leland Palmer is one of those parts.

Overall I'm okay with Ray Wise only appearing in S3 for barely a minute. Obviously I would've liked to see him more, but his character dominated so much of the original series and FWWM that I'm fine with sitting him on the back burner so other performers can get time to shine. Grace Zabriskie for example, who delivered some of the most riveting scenes of S3 and really pushed the boundaries of the "grieving parent with sinister undertones" character archetype previously established by Ray himself.


In FWWM he also showed great remorse in the moments he was aware of his actions. The moment he snaps out of it (after the fingernail incident) and goes into Laura's room is a very real moment of sadness over his earlier actions. With or without that evidence, to me it seems that the Leland of S3 is a man who has had 25 years to do nothing other than sit and think about his actions, and can now show nothing but remorse. He and Cooper make quite a pair in that lodge, both focused on only one thing. But there is also the possibility that Leland is still a puppet of sorts and part of a larger demonic plan, feeding Cooper's head that he needs to find Laura, leading to Cooper's ultimate failure at the season's end.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Cappy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:16 am

LateReg wrote:
Cappy wrote:It kinda felt like the sad version of Leland seen in S3 was more in line with the original series' "Leland as good guy possessed by BOB" than FWWM's "Leland as a horrible monster who is somehow connected to BOB". The mopey old guy who asked Agent Cooper to "find Laura" just seemed to echo the remorse displayed by Leland as he died in ep. 16. Ray Wise didn't seem to be displaying that nuanced fake-remorse that he did a few times during FWWM, but maybe that's just my impression.

It's interesting in that this either shows a shift in Lynch's approach to Leland's character, moving from Leland acting under his own freewill in FWWM back to Leland as hapless puppet from the original series, or Frost re-asserting his original vision of the character as being a hapless puppet of BOB. I'm very fascinated by the parts of Peaks where Lynch and Frost's creative vision clearly diverges, and maybe the character of Leland Palmer is one of those parts.

Overall I'm okay with Ray Wise only appearing in S3 for barely a minute. Obviously I would've liked to see him more, but his character dominated so much of the original series and FWWM that I'm fine with sitting him on the back burner so other performers can get time to shine. Grace Zabriskie for example, who delivered some of the most riveting scenes of S3 and really pushed the boundaries of the "grieving parent with sinister undertones" character archetype previously established by Ray himself.


In FWWM he also showed great remorse in the moments he was aware of his actions. The moment he snaps out of it (after the fingernail incident) and goes into Laura's room is a very real moment of sadness over his earlier actions. With or without that evidence, to me it seems that the Leland of S3 is a man who has had 25 years to do nothing other than sit and think about his actions, and can now show nothing but remorse. He and Cooper make quite a pair in that lodge, both focused on only one thing. But there is also the possibility that Leland is still a puppet of sorts and part of a larger demonic plan, feeding Cooper's head that he needs to find Laura, leading to Cooper's ultimate failure at the season's end.


This is just my reading of Ray Wise's performance in FWWM, but his few showings of remorse or sympathy in FWWM always struck me as being just that: shows, deliberately put on by Leland to convince himself and the world that he was a good guy. There's a scene directly after the fingernail scene, where Leland sits up in his bedroom with a scowl, and the way his face slowly shifts from hateful resolve to sad remorse, it's like watching the wheels turning in the mind of a sociopath in real time. It feels less like his emotion is organically shifting from rage to remorse and more like an angry man forcing his face to look different so what's inside can avoid detection.

But that's just my read -- obviously we can also look at it as straight up possession by BOB. I just think it's so interesting the way FWWM muddies the waters of Leland's motivations, especially when considering how different the concept of BOB functions with Mr. C in S3, not as an occupying demon but rather some giant, cackling gallstone that imbues corrupt men with vague super powers.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby LateReg » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:25 am

Cappy wrote:
This is just my reading of Ray Wise's performance in FWWM, but his few showings of remorse or sympathy in FWWM always struck me as being just that: shows, deliberately put on by Leland to convince himself and the world that he was a good guy. There's a scene directly after the fingernail scene, where Leland sits up in his bedroom with a scowl, and the way his face slowly shifts from hateful resolve to sad remorse, it's like watching the wheels turning in the mind of a sociopath in real time. It feels less like his emotion is organically shifting from rage to remorse and more like an angry man forcing his face to look different so what's inside can avoid detection.

But that's just my read -- obviously we can also look at it as straight up possession by BOB. I just think it's so interesting the way FWWM muddies the waters of Leland's motivations, especially when considering how different the concept of BOB functions with Mr. C in S3, not as an occupying demon but rather some giant, cackling gallstone that imbues corrupt men with vague super powers.


I 100% disagree with that, actually, and had never even looked at it that way, but I do find it interesting. And that is the exact post-fingernail scene I was talking about. That looks like a man who is suddenly aware of his actions. He doesn't want to be that way, but that is the way he is, and it's not something one can easily fight. And I'm not saying it signifies possession, although it could. Rather, I am specifically saying that someone like that can experience a moment of clarity like that. Any person who gets so trapped inside their own head/rage can have a moment like that. Sadly, I recognize it from experience, and his shift from rage to remorse is a feeling that I've encountered many times. You ride high, you get trapped in some emotion that won't let go and dig yourself deeper and deeper, you can't help yourself, and then suddenly it hits you and you want to be the kindest and most genuinely sorrowful person in the world. The way it's filmed lends itself to multiple interpretations, as it must do since Leland is in fact possessed. But I think a person who can't help themselves might as well be possessed, which I see as a major facet of both the series and FWWM's portrayal of Leland once you removal the actual supernatural element. And that's not an excuse...it's just the way it is for some people. It's like they're not themselves, literally out of control. Some of those people never feel remorse, but some do. And when Leland goes into Laura's room and tells her how much he loves her, it's a heartbreakingly emotional moment that rings true for me. It's always seemed real, much like many of Lynch's greatest emotional scenes, and I never read it as an act of manipulation by a sociopath.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Mordeen wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
This is intriguing. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be implying that the opening Dale/Fireman scene was moved up in the edit (as some have speculated).


Is it future, or is it past?

-Mordeen


Loving these teases Mordeen :-D

I seem to remember Kyle also stating that the "What year is this?" scene was the original opening for the season. Although it is difficult to imagine how those pieces were supposed to come together - and what wasn't filmed.


Just rediscovered this interview with Mark where he unequivocally says “What year is this?” was always the final line in the script: https://www.salon.com/2017/11/07/the-la ... ark-frost/
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Soolsma » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:35 am

Funny how that scene was the very first solid thing that leaked and was filmed quite early on.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:13 pm

Soolsma wrote:Funny how that scene was the very first solid thing that leaked and was filmed quite early on.


The only reason I am kind of pissed at myself for reading the spoilers on that is because I then knew Sarah Palmer would not be answering the door. Had I not known it was the true owner of the house who would be answering, that scene would have held more tension for me.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby bosguy1981 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:28 am

Mordeen wrote:I can't speak to exactly how it ended up that his role was vastly diminished from what was offered up, because asking for details would have gone into treacherous legal territory. For what it's worth, I just wanted to try and lend some insight into the what, not necessarily the why.

-Mordeen


I realize it's a Ray Wise thread, but I'll ask for the hell of it -- any chance you could shed some light (even a little vague light) on how it is Michael Ontkean wound up moving into the group of actors who declined to participate? He seemed to be on board, and then he wasn't.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:43 am

bosguy1981 wrote:
Mordeen wrote:I can't speak to exactly how it ended up that his role was vastly diminished from what was offered up, because asking for details would have gone into treacherous legal territory. For what it's worth, I just wanted to try and lend some insight into the what, not necessarily the why.

-Mordeen


I realize it's a Ray Wise thread, but I'll ask for the hell of it -- any chance you could shed some light (even a little vague light) on how it is Michael Ontkean wound up moving into the group of actors who declined to participate? He seemed to be on board, and then he wasn't.

He had retired to Hawaii for health-related issues which prevented him from safely travelling to Washington. IIRC correctly this was uncovered very early on in production, but I may be mis-remembering and would be happy to be corrected.

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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:56 am

Mordeen wrote:
bosguy1981 wrote:I realize it's a Ray Wise thread, but I'll ask for the hell of it -- any chance you could shed some light (even a little vague light) on how it is Michael Ontkean wound up moving into the group of actors who declined to participate? He seemed to be on board, and then he wasn't.

He had retired to Hawaii for health-related issues which prevented him from safely travelling to Washington. IIRC correctly this was uncovered very early on in production, but I may be mis-remembering and would be happy to be corrected.

-Mordeen

Would those factors have made his inclusion impossible though? For example, an ailing Harry's tenuous connection to the world might have resulted in visions or even his own trips into the Lodge. He could have helped Cooper any number of ways. A decent number of actors chose to participate in the face of very ill health, and measures were taken to make their appearances possible and plausible, which only serves to make his absence all the more mysterious.
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:11 am

This subject is better addressed by Brad Dukes, if he's willing to discuss it again. He spoke with MO directly on this very subject.

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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby bosguy1981 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:27 am

Mordeen wrote:He had retired to Hawaii for health-related issues which prevented him from safely travelling to Washington. IIRC correctly this was uncovered very early on in production, but I may be mis-remembering and would be happy to be corrected.

-Mordeen


Thanks, Mordeen! Hey, one more if you don't mind -- what about Piper Laurie? Did Lynch just decide to cut whatever was planned in the original script for Catherine Martell (like he changed Leland), or was it a bit more complicated than that?
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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby Mordeen » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:45 am

“I made it very clear to David and the team that I would be delighted to come back. I had a fantastic time on the original and won lots of awards. I’m surprised and I have no idea why I haven’t been called back."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/article/2016/05/03/piper-laurie-joan-chen-twin-peaks-revival/amp/

Bear in mind, The Return wasn't really about Twin Peaks. It's was about Dale Cooper, and of course, Laura's role in his fate. Peripheral characters had to be considered and many were ultimately discarded during the script writing process.

I feel the most notable absence was Annie, and her intentional omission screams of what Lynch/Frost were portraying to us.

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Re: No Ray Wise?

Postby bosguy1981 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:54 pm

Mordeen wrote:“I made it very clear to David and the team that I would be delighted to come back. I had a fantastic time on the original and won lots of awards. I’m surprised and I have no idea why I haven’t been called back."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/article/2016/05/03/piper-laurie-joan-chen-twin-peaks-revival/amp/

Bear in mind, The Return wasn't really about Twin Peaks. It's was about Dale Cooper, and of course, Laura's role in his fate. Peripheral characters had to be considered and many were ultimately discarded during the script writing process.

I feel the most notable absence was Annie, and her intentional omission screams of what Lynch/Frost were portraying to us.

- Mordeen


Gotcha! For some reason, I thought people alluded to a more elaborate behind-the-scenes situation as to why Piper wasn't onscreen that differed from her public comments about it. But if so, like so many things about this production, might be a story that stays secret forever!

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