One year later - how are we feeling?

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marchug
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby marchug » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:50 am

pinballmars wrote:The summer of 2017 was The Summer of Twin Peaks. I will never forget it.


Yep. I agree with this 100%. And I say this as someone in the fairly disappointed camp. Season 3 had some of the most incredible moments of television/film I've ever seen. There are parts of it that will definitely stay with me forever. That summer consisted of my wife and I running home from wherever we were to connect a laptop to the TV and hitting refresh over and over (feeling slightly panicky at times when the awful CraveTV hadn't made it live until 9:05). The next morning I would download a beautiful looking copy of it because it looked like shit on CraveTV and we would watch it again that night. I can't remember having that much fun with live television before!

But, yeah, overall I ended up being disappointed. I just can't get into the Annie/Diane & Diane/Naido switch; the random characters and their drama at the roadhouse; and, most of all, the absolutely terrible Cole/Cooper ret-con stuff. I don't even want to get into the green glove thing. Ugh. I'd say I was 100% on board with TP:TR until episode 17. I really liked where episode 18 went but 17 was just so terribly rushed and, well, just bad. IMO.

February has always Twin Peaks month for me. I'd rewatch season 1 + 2 + FWWM. For two decades now! I couldn't do it this year. I just couldn't bring myself to watch any of the old stuff at all. For Christmas my mother in law bought me TP:TR Bluray boxset. I felt like such an asshole when I opened it because I was happy for the incredible gift but I realized that I was still pretty angry inside about it all and I think that some of that came across in my face. The only thing that I have watched from that was the 'Man With The Elevated Grey Hair' documentary series. Which I actually think I enjoyed more than TP:TR.

Anyway, I hope that it grows on me. I just don't know when I will be able to go back to it. I just don't know if I want to invest any more of my time in it. Damn, it hurt to type that last sentence...
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NormoftheAndes
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby NormoftheAndes » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:44 am

marchug wrote:
pinballmars wrote:The summer of 2017 was The Summer of Twin Peaks. I will never forget it.


Yep. I agree with this 100%. And I say this as someone in the fairly disappointed camp. Season 3 had some of the most incredible moments of television/film I've ever seen. There are parts of it that will definitely stay with me forever. That summer consisted of my wife and I running home from wherever we were to connect a laptop to the TV and hitting refresh over and over (feeling slightly panicky at times when the awful CraveTV hadn't made it live until 9:05). The next morning I would download a beautiful looking copy of it because it looked like shit on CraveTV and we would watch it again that night. I can't remember having that much fun with live television before!

But, yeah, overall I ended up being disappointed. I just can't get into the Annie/Diane & Diane/Naido switch; the random characters and their drama at the roadhouse; and, most of all, the absolutely terrible Cole/Cooper ret-con stuff. I don't even want to get into the green glove thing. Ugh. I'd say I was 100% on board with TP:TR until episode 17. I really liked where episode 18 went but 17 was just so terribly rushed and, well, just bad. IMO.

February has always Twin Peaks month for me. I'd rewatch season 1 + 2 + FWWM. For two decades now! I couldn't do it this year. I just couldn't bring myself to watch any of the old stuff at all. For Christmas my mother in law bought me TP:TR Bluray boxset. I felt like such an asshole when I opened it because I was happy for the incredible gift but I realized that I was still pretty angry inside about it all and I think that some of that came across in my face. The only thing that I have watched from that was the 'Man With The Elevated Grey Hair' documentary series. Which I actually think I enjoyed more than TP:TR.

Anyway, I hope that it grows on me. I just don't know when I will be able to go back to it. I just don't know if I want to invest any more of my time in it. Damn, it hurt to type that last sentence...


You have to admit that the Freddie stuff was deliberately bad though? I'm not saying that redeems it exactly! :D
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby mtwentz » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:37 pm

I don't recall any Annie/Diane moments. Annie was only mentioned once in the series and never made an appearance.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby marchug » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:03 pm

mtwentz wrote:I don't recall any Annie/Diane moments. Annie was only mentioned once in the series and never made an appearance.


Yeah. Exactly. She went from being the great love of Coopers life to Diane being the love of his life. Or whatever was supposed to have happened there with Cooper and Diane.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby LateReg » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:05 pm

NormoftheAndes wrote:
You have to admit that the Freddie stuff was deliberately bad though? I'm not saying that redeems it exactly! :D


Reindeer and I have discussed this ad nauseum, and I certainly agree. More than that, all of the opening of Part 17, with the notoriously word-phobic Lynch himself delivering the retcon, is also clearly deliberate. The whole thing is built so patiently up to that point...and then the first half of 17 comes along to derail that, confuse the audience with pointless last minute information, rush the climax out of the way, and get onto the meat of the story; all 18 hours are very deliberately laid out, and all of Part 17 is very intentional. There's a lot of games being played there, and I think a lot of folks' satisfaction with it will depend on how they're processing the series. I like the games, metatext, and subversions of expectations and form, and view the show primarily on a thematic level, so I'm very much on board while admitting that it's not my favorite thing the show has ever done on a strictly plot basis.

I also don't think Annie was ever really the great love of Cooper's life. He knew her for a week, far less time than he knew Diane, with whom he had probably had a deep, long lasting relationship that he kept platonic out of respect for his career. Also, maybe we never truly saw Diane, as Reindeer and I have also frequently discussed. Maybe what we are seeing on the surface is actually a representation of Cooper's point of view, nothing more. I do think that almost every element of the story is meant to be viewed both concretely and abstractly. To me, Diane is interesting no matter which way you want to think of her.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby mtwentz » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:42 pm

marchug wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I don't recall any Annie/Diane moments. Annie was only mentioned once in the series and never made an appearance.


Yeah. Exactly. She went from being the great love of Coopers life to Diane being the love of his life. Or whatever was supposed to have happened there with Cooper and Diane.


I was a bit disappointed in that as well. In fact, it's my only major disappointment of The Return; I kept hoping Annie would make a surprise appearance right up to the end.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:06 pm

really? Annie and Diane? This show really went so far off course for me starting... I guess January 1991. I have the worst luck with this thing.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm

LateReg wrote:I also don't think Annie was ever really the great love of Cooper's life. He knew her for a week, far less time than he knew Diane, with whom he had probably had a deep, long lasting relationship that he kept platonic out of respect for his career. Also, maybe we never truly saw Diane, as Reindeer and I have also frequently discussed. Maybe what we are seeing on the surface is actually a representation of Cooper's point of view, nothing more. I do think that almost every element of the story is meant to be viewed both concretely and abstractly. To me, Diane is interesting no matter which way you want to think of her.


Perhaps stretching it, but given the weird anagram thing going on with Naido, Linda, and Candie/Mandie/Sandie, could Annie factor in as well as a further corruption of “Diane” (missing the “D,” but she has the “E” that is missing from Naido and Linda)? Even if not intentional, this feels appropriate to Annie’s role in Dale’s arc IMO: another permutation of the archetypal women he feels compelled to protect.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby meadowlark » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:01 pm

I have been watching Season 3 again, on DVD, and I am very much enjoying it. I would like to thank David Lynch and Mark Frost and everyone else for going to all the trouble of making this Season 3. It may well have involved a lot of hard work.

The scenes in the town of Twin Peaks are nostalgic but progressive. The conversations between Gordon Cole and Albert are funny. Of course, Evil Cooper is an unpleasant bounder, but it's informative to watch his subplot progress.

Admittedly, some scenes are a bit too slow moving. Obviously some of the "Dougie Jones" in Las Vegas scenes drag on somewhat, but at least there is some humour in them. His story is like Echo and Narcissus. Something similar happens between Chad and the drunk, in the holding cells.

There are some big surprises: the slow build-up to appearance of Agent Philip Jeffries is just incredible. Never in a million years did I think he would be inside a black metal flotation tank. Anyway, there are some well-paced, atmospheric sequences. On the whole, very good.

I am satisfied that they resolved the "How's Annie?" smashed-mirror cliffhanger. I had been pondering that for many years. In 1991, I was at school, and a friend told me a rumour that they were planning another episode the next year (1992) to round up the loose ends. Someone said they were impatient about having to wait a whole year. As it happens, we had to wait 26 years!!!
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby mtwentz » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:12 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:really? Annie and Diane? This show really went so far off course for me starting... I guess January 1991. I have the worst luck with this thing.


For me, I think there is a specific reason why I craved an Annie reunion more than an Audrey reunion with Cooper. On the original run, I pretty much missed most of Season 1 (I saw the pilot on its first airing, then missed all the rest of the episodes until the Season Finale, episode 7). So I really always had my teeth cut on Season 2, when the Coop-Audrey thing was already pretty much over (except for Coop rescuing Audrey).

I never had much invested in the Coop-Audrey romance, because I did not get to go back and watch those Season 1 episodes until pretty much after the series was over. So I've always had the Coop-Annie romance baked in my head as 'Coop's one true love'.

I guess the other thing is that Cooper and Audrey never actually shared even a kiss in the original series that a lot of us assumed Cooper would be coming back for Annie.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:28 pm

Heather Graham is freaking awesome, and I’d have loved to see her work with DKL as a more mature artist. But I don’t think Annie was ever anything more than another stone along a path. Not that Dale thought of her that way; I think his intentions were pure, and maybe they even might have become a serious long-term couple if they’d had the chance. But pretty much that whole arc was about the fact that Dale was repeating old patterns, with Annie and Caroline literally becoming interchangeable in Episode 29. MLMT shows a history of Dale falling in love with the idea rather than the reality of a woman (generally a damaged woman he perceives as needing protection), and convincing himself that she is “the one,” only for things to go horribly wrong, which he generally blames on a curse rather than any error in his own judgment. I think this is telling as to the writers’ mindset circa S2, and I think the new series continued mining the same terrain in a more abstract way.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:03 pm

Heather is great... Annie, eh... plot device. Audrey and Cooper were the bee’s knees. At this stage, I’m mostly just poking fun at my horrible luck with this show. I still think the original cast from the first season was lightning in a bottle and the possibilities of bringing them all back truly a golden opportunity.... if that’s nostalgia, oh well... it works.

One year later, I’m pretty much where I was before... in love with the first season and most of the first half of the second season... and looking at the rest in bits and pieces of oh what could’ve been. Richard was the only new character that kinda clicked for me, and not sure if Laura Dern as Diane was too meta. (And meta was my favorite part of the show originally). I think I prefer Diane to always be a tape recorder.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:05 pm

I don't think Diane is the love of Cooper's life. I think she's very important to him, but I think what 17-18 demonstrate is that their longing for nostalgia and the good old, more innocent days is forever tainted by what's happened since with Mr. C - another part of Cooper.

I think Audrey could well be that, but she too was raped and violated by Mr. C. Like Diane, they never got as far as they could without it being ruined. So both women are very similar and I can't say for certain that a 'true love' read of either is invalid (he also knew Diane much longer). I would've almost been happy seeing Audrey replace Diane in 17-18 somehow, but I liked seeing the 'real' Diane and I think Audrey having the now-legendary motel scene would be too horrific to bear.

Annie does not factor in for me. I think she was a sweet girl, but a rash rush of passion for Coop. He was trying to absolve himself and undo the past failure with Caroline - again - through her. But he didn't know her that well, and she didn't really know him.

Also: Said it before, say it again. The Freddie/BOB fight is deliberately awesome. :twisted:
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:11 pm

N. Needleman wrote:I would've almost been happy seeing Audrey replace Diane in 17-18 somehow, but I liked seeing the 'real' Diane and I think Audrey having the now-legendary motel scene would be too horrific to bear


This (except that I’m not convinced we ever saw a definitively “real” Diane). Audrey in those scenes would have been mor powerful from a storytelling/character perspective — perhaps TOO powerful — but Diane works better thematically. I’m torn between the approaches and would love to spend two hours in an alternate reality where I could watch the Audrey version, but I’m ultimately happy with the show we got.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:44 pm

If they were going this route with Coooer as Richard, then I would’ve had Audrey be in the grove clearing and go in the trip... so we think we’re still watching a conventional story... aha, she’s saved. She spies Diane outside the hotel... oh no, she’s back as an evil tulpa or is that the real Diane. The sex scene morphs between Audrey, Diane and maybe Laura. And Richard, Coooer gets the Dear John letter in the morning. I’d probably go further with having Sheryl Lee play Janey E to up the Vegas tension.

Then we’d never really know what Linda looks like, but Richard has compartmentalized these extreme examples of women, including Annie and Caroline to deal with real life abuse he has dealt her. Richard was never an FBI agent etc and had to create this perfect fantasy that keeps breaking down. He has to invent things like Mr C, Leland and Bob as qualifiers to justify things he feels guilty of. Names like Truman and nostalgic Peaks makes sense if he’s trying to create a perfect world but where it keeps breaking down.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?

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