One year later - how are we feeling?

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Cappy
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Cappy » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:41 pm

In a way, I kind of wish Hawk had been given the Truman scenes, and that Candy Clark's character was named "Diane Shapiro, PhD, Brandeis". :D

I just always thought it was neat a coincidence how Hawk and Coop both had these important women in their lives off screen, both named Diane.
Hester Prynne
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:14 pm

Wally Brando paying tribute to Hawk would have been fun to watch, too. :wink:
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Audrey Horne
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:51 pm

One year later? Well, I guess, um... the pitfalls of the second season I coukd always reconcile to outside forces... but this one with all the creative control Lynch and Forst had and time to plan it as a whole... er, um... I think they needed a few more rounds with their structure. Some fantastic moments, and all their actors were game... just another round of story structure. And they needed Harley Peyton on dialogue duty.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby AgentEcho » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:55 am

Cappy wrote:In a way, I kind of wish Hawk had been given the Truman scenes, and that Candy Clark's character was named "Diane Shapiro, PhD, Brandeis". :D


Yes, this is one of a small number of nitpicks I have with Season 3. I like Robert Forester but the character of Frank never seemed like anything other than a rushed solution to having to write Harry out of the script. It seems like they just replaced all appearances by Harry with Frank in the script and made a few tweaks to account for Frank being Harry's brother. Mark Frost seemed to almost "correct" this in the Final Dossier, where he mentions Frank was handling the sheriff duties temporarily and then Hawk would assume the role of sheriff. I appreciated the expanded role of Hawk in the first half and would have liked to see that carry through the rest of the season. Of all the characters aside from Harry who deserve to be the Sheriff of Twin Peaks, Hawk certainly fits the bill more than Frank (of course we know little about Frank other than what's in Frost's books).

Overall though, I am still very high on Season 3. It was one of the most captivating television viewing experiences of my life, and more of whatever reservations I had about it have improved with time than not (such as the finale, which initially, I was confounded by... but I love it now).
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby kitty666cats » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:16 pm

Audrey Horne wrote: And they needed Harley Peyton on dialogue duty.


THIS, so much this... Peyton and Engels being involved would have made S3 so much better. Writing isn't Lynch's strong suit, he's best left to creating an impeccable mood/atmosphere. Frost is a great writer, but he was spread too thin writing 18 hours with only Lynch helping. Not to mention all the ideas he was retaining for his books.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:53 am

I don’t know why some people are so quick to dismiss Lynch’s writing abilities. As others have pointed out, most of his best-regarded works were written by him solo (BV, MD, Eraserhead). Comparing the Episode 8 script to the episode as shot is a fascinating case study: aside from the two big monologues (Ed and Garland), which he wisely left untouched, Lynch seems to have altered/rewritten much of the dialogue on-set, maintaining the substance of Frost’s script, but making the actual words (to my ear) much more natural and individualized than on the page. I think he has a great ear for dialogue.

I also don’t think there’s any basis for saying Frost was spread too thin on the new show. They wrote together at a leisurely pace over several years, and everything Frost has said indicates that they only stopped writing because both were completely satisfied with the result. They didn’t have any deadline. Whether you like it or not, this is the show they both wanted to make.
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Cappy
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Cappy » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:46 am

I think one big difference between dialogue in S1/S2 and dialogue in S3 is that in Twin Peaks Classic, there was almost always a constant stream of speech, but in the Return, most of the speech is punctuated and broken up by silence.

Sure, the original had it's non-verbal eerie moments (Madeline's vision of BOB, Log Lady appearing behind Coop and Truman after they arrest Ben, most of the finale), but by and large it was a talky show. I think in S3 Lynch was really interested in giving scenes/scenarios room to breathe. Characters speak, but they aren't guaranteed any sort of reaction. The silences, I think, are a way drawing out the particular mood of the scene. Case in point, Albert's silence while Gordon's French "friend" leaves his hotel room, Charlie's silence in the face of Audrey's tirade, all the Dougie stuff, Frank Truman listening to Wally ramble, and those are just the ones that come to mind instantly.

Obviously there are scenes in the original Peaks where characters go on monologues, and other characters are silent while they listen. Bobby listening to his father describing his dream and Ed detailing how Nadine lost her eye came to mind. I feel like in these two scenes, as a viewer, my main focus is the speaker and the reactions of those listening. In The Return however, when, for example, Charlie is staring blankly at a shouting Audrey, I'm not thinking about Audrey's words and Charlie's reactions to them as much as I am thinking about the air of awkwardness and tension that exists in the scene. Lynch, as a director, might be focusing our attention onto atmospherics and moods and away from words in Season 3. You could say he's always done this, but I think he's doing it a lot more in S3 than he was in S1/2.

I think even if Peyton/Engels or anyone else was writing dialogue, there might exist a similar effect; characters would say things, and the silence would immediately devour it.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby dreamshake » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:53 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I don’t know why some people are so quick to dismiss Lynch’s writing abilities. As others have pointed out, most of his best-regarded works were written by him solo (BV, MD, Eraserhead). Comparing the Episode 8 script to the episode as shot is a fascinating case study: aside from the two big monologues (Ed and Garland), which he wisely left untouched, Lynch seems to have altered/rewritten much of the dialogue on-set, maintaining the substance of Frost’s script, but making the actual words (to my ear) much more natural and individualized than on the page. I think he has a great ear for dialogue.

I also don’t think there’s any basis for saying Frost was spread too thin on the new show. They wrote together at a leisurely pace over several years, and everything Frost has said indicates that they only stopped writing because both were completely satisfied with the result. They didn’t have any deadline. Whether you like it or not, this is the show they both wanted to make.


hear hear
Agent Earle
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Agent Earle » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:25 am

Peyton & Engels all the way for me!
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Audrey Horne
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:48 am

It's all good. it was a how are we feeling one year later answer. For me, revisiting some moments with the hand on the fast forward button. 18 hrs is a lot of Lynch for me- and for me, with everything generally the same tempo and heightened importance, it tends to negate it and sink... ev er y sing le sec ond issssssss weight ed. So, for me, he was always best when he was juxtaposed next to breezier directors and screenwriters. Episode 14 works for me when it has a pace of 13's Lesli Linker Glatter for instance.
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby mtwentz » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:55 am

I know what people mean in terms of the writing: Season 1 and 2 had so many quotable lines, whereas Season 3 does not have so many (I would also add that FWWM is not as quotable as Seasons 1 and 2 either).

I think Cappy is in to something, and I also think the mood Lynch and Frost were going for had a lot to do with it.
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LateReg
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby LateReg » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:08 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I don’t know why some people are so quick to dismiss Lynch’s writing abilities. As others have pointed out, most of his best-regarded works were written by him solo (BV, MD, Eraserhead). Comparing the Episode 8 script to the episode as shot is a fascinating case study: aside from the two big monologues (Ed and Garland), which he wisely left untouched, Lynch seems to have altered/rewritten much of the dialogue on-set, maintaining the substance of Frost’s script, but making the actual words (to my ear) much more natural and individualized than on the page. I think he has a great ear for dialogue.

I also don’t think there’s any basis for saying Frost was spread too thin on the new show. They wrote together at a leisurely pace over several years, and everything Frost has said indicates that they only stopped writing because both were completely satisfied with the result. They didn’t have any deadline. Whether you like it or not, this is the show they both wanted to make.


These have always been my thoughts exactly on Lynch's writing. Sure, he's a conjurer of atmosphere above all, but that doesn't automatically make him a weak writer. This comment doesn't apply to this thread, btw. Just in general, throughout all of Lynch's films, I've always thought he was a great writer, perfectly serving the material; I've never noticed a weakness there, but have frequently seen it cited as one. Dern's monologues in INLAND EMPIRE, for example, are amazingly entertaining, cryptic and layered. I've often pointed out how his most acclaimed films are those he's written solo, as Reindeer alluded to above, and Mulholland Drive's screenplay was appropriately awarded by critics groups/polls at the end of 2001.

Which is not to say that I don't think that Peyton/Engels' contributions to dialogue would have been unwelcome. I'm sure they would have added some great lines!
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Audrey Horne
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Audrey Horne » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:47 pm

No, I think Lynch is a fine writer... it’s hard. Blue Velvet is wonderful in that respects. But for me when Peaks was working consistantly -really during its first season at its tightest- was when it was breezy, snappy, like a 30, 40s film. And that also led to the strength when Lynch would come in and subvert the rythym of the soap material. But, for me, you need a lot of that tone to be effective when it gets subverted. A scene like Ben and Josie’s tête-à-tête in 13 comes to mind.
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LateReg
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby LateReg » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:13 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:No, I think Lynch is a fine writer... it’s hard. Blue Velvet is wonderful in that respects. But for me when Peaks was working consistantly -really during its first season at its tightest- was when it was breezy, snappy, like a 30, 40s film. And that also led to the strength when Lynch would come in and subvert the rythym of the soap material. But, for me, you need a lot of that tone to be effective when it gets subverted. A scene like Ben and Josie’s tête-à-tête in 13 comes to mind.


Well put, I can definitely appreciate and even agree with that.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: One year later - how are we feeling?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:21 pm

Peyton in particular certainly brought a ‘His Girl Friday’ snappiness to the dialogue that I particulary missed in the new show when Albert was onscreen. It’s for sure an ingredient that was missing from the new recipe, but I’m ok with that, partly because my favorite of DKL’s works tend to be the ones that have a mostly unrelenting mood (Eraserhead, INLAND EMPIRE).

Reading Peyton’s thoughts on the new show as a viewer (albeit one with a unique relationship with the world) has also been really fascinating.

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