The slow pace of The Return

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missoulamt
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The slow pace of The Return

Postby missoulamt » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:53 am

Does anyone feel there's anything good coming from the fact that The Return is so slow paced?

I am rewatching it for the first time in its entirety, and although it feels slightly stronger than on the first viewing, it strikes me how it's so *very* slow paced.

The original was not like that, at all, and I'm curious how people feel about it.

Robert Forster's part is a good illustration of this. What does he actually add to the show? It feels like they had to find someone to fill the sheriff role basically but there's not much atmosphere...
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krishnanspace
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby krishnanspace » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:11 am

There were certain scenes that were best at the slow pace and some were purposely dragged out.Also the lack of music makes the show look slow. I felt even the original show had some slow scenes.but for me, FWWM has the perfect pace.The pace is as fast as modern movies and slow where it needs to be
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mtwentz
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby mtwentz » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:41 am

missoulamt wrote:Does anyone feel there's anything good coming from the fact that The Return is so slow paced?

I am rewatching it for the first time in its entirety, and although it feels slightly stronger than on the first viewing, it strikes me how it's so *very* slow paced.

The original was not like that, at all, and I'm curious how people feel about it.

Robert Forster's part is a good illustration of this. What does he actually add to the show? It feels like they had to find someone to fill the sheriff role basically but there's not much atmosphere...


The only valid comparison between Season 1 and 2 pacing and The Return pacing is to only use Lynch directed episodes in your analysis.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
LateReg
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby LateReg » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:25 am

The pacing is in line with transcendental style, or slow cinema. I love it and its unhurriedness. If it works on you, it should put you in an almost trancelike state, almost as though the slowness is easing your mind into the proper state to receive the show's transmissions, to take in every detail, to soak in its atmosphere and luxuriate in its world, a lifelike pace that allows you to ponder everything in the frame as well as life itself, giving enough room to dream. If it doesn't, then yeah, it's just slow. That said, I no longer even feel as though the pacing is even slow. I mean, it seemed very slow at first as I was hanging on every moment for something/anything to happen, and objectively it certainly is slow, a challenge to the pace of most TV and mainstream film and, as I read somewhere, "slow cinema's revenge," but at some point in my rewatches I struggled to even figure out why I ever thought it was even slowly paced. I'm on its wavelength and so it no longer seems slow, but rather just "right."

Like MT said, elements of Lynch's original Twin Peaks episodes come close to the pacing of The Return, especially episodes 8 (season 2 premiere) and 29 (finale).
missoulamt
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby missoulamt » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:29 am

Lynch's other work doesn't come across as slow paced to me. I think one of the reasons TR feels slow paced is because many of the storylines simply aren't captivating enough. Forster as the sheriff, Dougie outstaying his welcome etc.
Kilmoore
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby Kilmoore » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:59 am

missoulamt wrote:Lynch's other work doesn't come across as slow paced to me. I think one of the reasons TR feels slow paced is because many of the storylines simply aren't captivating enough. Forster as the sheriff, Dougie outstaying his welcome etc.

Agreed. Most of the storylines go nowhere, and throughout them have the feeling of going nowhere. Nothing interesting happens, so it feels very slow.
missoulamt
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby missoulamt » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:59 am

The "Got A Light?" part is an exception though, in my opinion. That feels very Lynch all of a sudden and really pulls you in, old style. Just because it's captivating.

But coming back to the topic of Dougie. Kyle M did a good job with him but all was somehow said after 2 parts. And then he remained one of the main story arcs for the rest of the show. Crazy.
LateReg
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby LateReg » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:06 pm

We're getting back in to personal preference or perhaps personal interpretation or expectation (of this show or narrative media in general) territory here of course when it comes to how many storylines went somewhere satisfactory and how many are purposeful in their anti-climaxes, where those of us who are well known supporters might say one thing while those who aren't might say the opposite. For example: Dougie works and seems integral to me for each and every part he appears in. Frank Truman seems warm, his constant references to Harry are both sad and lovely to me.

But as far as the actual pacing, I do think that The Return features the most drawn out pacing of Lynch's career, returning to the days of Eraserhead. So, as far as an apt comparison re: pacing, I think it would be Eraserhead rather than any of Lynch's other films. The whole idea of The Return's pacing, regardless of how much interest the action on screen holds, has a mesmerizing quality to me. I'm not in it for the story as much as I am for the feeling and the ideas. The pacing amplifies both.
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Trudy Chelgren
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby Trudy Chelgren » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:59 pm

I agree totally with the Eraserhead comparison. The only difference being that I can't watch Eraserhead anymore. It's great, but too much for me.

In The Return, I felt the pacing was way less dour. I loved watching Dougie eat chocolate cake, it's something that really grounds the more 'out-there' elements of the story, keeping the slice of life stuff really central and focused too. One of the slowest scenes is Dougie drawing on the case files, and it's one of the most emotionally affecting moments of all of Twin Peaks for me. Something about that really gets to me.

The only scene I struggle to watch again is Audrey's first scene. It's agonizing the second time around. It works to introduce the doubt that builds through her thread, but it's so grating and dragged-out to me now.
IcedOver
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby IcedOver » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:03 pm

I usually don't look at any movie/show as being "slow" or "fast-paced". It's all about what feels right for the material at any given moment and in overall pacing. Pacing is very difficult to get right for anybody, but Lynch is one of the best with it. "Inland" would make a lot of people want to hang themselves, but to me it's the shortest three-hour movie I've viewed. In contrast, if you look at the three hour slogfest of, say, the "Hobbit" movies with repetitive fight scenes, that's agonizing, even though it would be considered fast. I just went to "Bad Times at the El Royale", and it's not too well paced -- overlong not because it's long but because it has less going on, on all fronts, than the filmmaker believes at any given point.

You just have to be on the wavelength of whatever filmmaker, and Lynch is that type, maybe more than any other -- you have to be in sync. I became a fan during the original airing of the show at 13-14. The season 2 premiere, with its radically different pacing, was unlike anything I had encountered to that point, especially the opening scene (not that I had experienced much at that young age, of course). That stuff bakes on in to where you get on that wavelength.

As for whether S3 is well paced, it's hard for me to say over a year removed and not having done a full rewatch. I do like the leisurely pace, the absurdist moments of watching Dougie eat and push some buttons on a remote and separate the shakers, or Jacoby painting the shovels, stuff like that. The tension a lot of us felt during the run was worry about what we thought we needed to have happen, happening. Whether by design, or as a byproduct, or possibly through carelessness/rustiness (although I'm less subscribing to the latter), Lynch is saying that those expectations and needs don't really matter. Maybe you want to advance the plot at some points but maybe you also want to show a man sitting eating soup while cars go by, a man singing a song outside his trailer, or women talking about the travails of serving burgers while one scratches her armpit rash. Both of those types of moments are equally as valid, at least on this show.
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missoulamt
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby missoulamt » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:01 pm

I also feel Inland Empire's 3 hrs go by fairly quickly. Something about that also draws you in.

But the amount of time spent on certain characters in TR is just too much. The detectives trying to get to the bottom of Dougie's missing car... Slow paced *and* uninteresting somehow. And that's a first for Lynch.

Forster's involvment just drags in general, imo. Very little atmosphere and connection to the world of TP.
IcedOver
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby IcedOver » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:01 am

I agree that Forster wasn't very captivating, less because of his fault than having little to do. In some scenes it looks like he was waiting for his orders to come in. I'm not familiar with all the BTS stuff with Ontkean, as the stories keep changing, but most likely they had to use this character last minute, and couldn't figure out much of a personality. Hawk should have been sheriff.

I do agree that in the more plot-centric moments, they did often fumble in choosing what to focus on, such as the three detectives you mention. They try to figure out who Dougie really is, but we already know, so it's kind of useless and, as I recall, doesn't lead to anything before Coop is back. I'm sure they knew since they were going on this absurdist LV tangent, they had to flesh it out, but could have accomplished it better.
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missoulamt
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby missoulamt » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:20 am

And what about Jerry Horne? His interplay with Ben brilliant in the first season. Now reduced to a non-speaking character almost, looking at his foot with despair in the woods. Not funny, just frustrating.

Almost as if a random film student was to offer his/her take on where Jerry Horne was 25 years later and decided to direct some scenes.

Which brings me to Richard's storyline. Not very interesting either. Or Shelley's daughter and her drug addict boyfriend. Same thing.

So much airtime, yet holding so little interest for the viewer.

Why is it that these storylines don't catch one's interest I wonder?

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
LateReg
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby LateReg » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:33 am

missoulamt wrote:And what about Jerry Horne? His interplay with Ben brilliant in the first season. Now reduced to a non-speaking character almost, looking at his foot with despair in the woods. Not funny, just frustrating.

Almost as if a random film student was to offer his/her take on where Jerry Horne was 25 years later and decided to direct some scenes.

Which brings me to Richard's storyline. Not very interesting either. Or Shelley's daughter and her drug addict boyfriend. Same thing.

So much airtime, yet holding so little interest for the viewer.

Why is it that these storylines don't catch one's interest I wonder?

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.


They all caught my interest. They all subverted my expectations. They all tied in to the larger whole based on my interpretation of what Lynch/Frost were going for re: the passage of 25 years and the approach to documenting the town/world and its inhabitants 25 years later, the cyclical nature of events and the state of the American psyche, the mysterious nature of the woods, Cooper's first person POV, the nature of storytelling especially in the age of prestige TV, the nature of dreams and nostalgia, etc. I could go on and on, and it just depends on how you look at it. To me, it's all profoundly interesting, and I see it as a largely non-narrative affair that shouldn't be graded according to one's preconceptions of narrative A to B to C storytelling. It can be unsatisfactory in that way, and often, frustratingly, intentionally so. Meanwhile, it forms impressions, works via rhythm and rhyme. I particularly love the fragments of Richard and Shelley's daughter's storylines, their echoes of the past and, in the case of Richard, the thoughts he inspires in regards to what psychological connection he has to Dougie, Mr. C, Cooper and eventually Cooper-Richard, as well as the effects he has on whatever is happening with Audrey. I wish I could flesh this out more, but I've already said so much of this on this board over the past year and a half that I don't want to bore those who've already read what I have to say. I even wrote a nearly 15,000 word essay on it for family and friends, so maybe I'm just spent when it comes to writing about the show. But I can't stop thinking about it. There's just so much here to engage with on so many levels.
Agent Earle
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Re: The slow pace of The Return

Postby Agent Earle » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:12 pm

missoulamt wrote:And what about Jerry Horne? His interplay with Ben brilliant in the first season. Now reduced to a non-speaking character almost, looking at his foot with despair in the woods. Not funny, just frustrating.

Almost as if a random film student was to offer his/her take on where Jerry Horne was 25 years later and decided to direct some scenes.

Which brings me to Richard's storyline. Not very interesting either. Or Shelley's daughter and her drug addict boyfriend. Same thing.

So much airtime, yet holding so little interest for the viewer.

Why is it that these storylines don't catch one's interest I wonder?

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.


I expect you'll be kindly escorted to the - now desolate - Profoundly Disappointed thread soon :)
I agree with everything you state wholeheartedly, btw.

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