Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

missoulamt
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am

Ah, what a shame. I thought they were connected somehow sparking off my imagination and thinking there was a connection between the worlds of TP and IE somehow :)
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby AXX°N N. » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:06 pm

missoulamt wrote:Is the orb scene the same thing as Freddie's fight scene? :)

I refer to the P17 scene with Freddie and the orb, to myself, as the orb scene. :)
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
missoulamt
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:53 am

Started rewatching FWWM yesterday. The part where Laura goes home in the middle of the day, hesitating to go into her bedroom because of Bob possibly being there, and the jolt of fear that literally goes through the body when you start noticing he's in the room. Almost as if you were there in the room yourself. Followed by the evening dinner scene with Wise and Lee. Nothing in the Return comes close to that level of intensity, in my opinion. Especially Freddie's fight scene...

Seeing it again I was reminded how FWWM remains really scary to this day. The Return is lightweight by comparison.
User avatar
eyeboogers
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:38 am

missoulamt wrote:Started rewatching FWWM yesterday. The part where Laura goes home in the middle of the day, hesitating to go into her bedroom because of Bob possibly being there, and the jolt of fear that literally goes through the body when you start noticing he's in the room. Almost as if you were there in the room yourself. Followed by the evening dinner scene with Wise and Lee. Nothing in the Return comes close to that level of intensity, in my opinion. Especially Freddie's fight scene...

Seeing it again I was reminded how FWWM remains really scary to this day. The Return is lightweight by comparison.


I understand your point, and "Fire Walk With Me" is my favorite film. However, while "The Return" to some (me included) falls short on jump-scares, it ultimately is the more frightening of the two. F.ex. when part 18 finished it left me in a somewhat hyperventilating state. And I've heard that others had a similar experience after the ending. "The Return" succeeds in creating a sort of existential fright, something that goes way deeper than any boogeyman. There is this this eerie feeling of "this is just wrong/off" in every frame of this series. It is the same thing that makes the nostalgia-crowd hate "The Return". The sense of unredeemable loss of innocence/opportunity combined with the slower than even real life pacing, the lack of music. It all combines to something that is deeply and utterly scary. This is how the artists get you to pay attention to their key message dig yourself out of the shit, even if it's not easy to do so, especially when it's not easy to do so. Pretty cool stuff in my book.

With all that defending done, there are things that are supposed to deliver those jump-scares. And for me, they are not working. The experiment breaking out of the glass box. Sarah Palmer attacking the bar creep. In terms of these not delivering I attribute it to Lynch using CGI instead of making it work in the camera. As such I think those scenes as conceived by Lynch/Frost have all the right ideas in them. The original show had the same issues whenever it defaulted to 1990's version of CGI.
Agent Earle
Posts: 871
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:22 pm

eyeboogers wrote:It is the same thing that makes the nostalgia-crowd hate "The Return". The sense of unredeemable loss of innocence/opportunity combined with the slower than even real life pacing, the lack of music. It all combines to something that is deeply and utterly scary. This is how the artists get you to pay attention to their key message dig yourself out of the shit, even if it's not easy to do so, especially when it's not easy to do so. Pretty cool stuff in my book.



No, it's not. (Addressing what I underlined).
I've got tons of other problems with this series - meaningless subplots that lead nowhere, some questionable acting quality, bad special effects, nonsensical weirdness for weirdness' sake, needless characters and the good ones underused, writing that leaves a lot to be desired, complete and total sloppiness when it comes to assuring the continuity with the previous series (to name just a few) -, but pitch black tones that you describe are actually the one thing that I don't have the slightest little problem with. And I agree with you, the things you describe in that context are pretty cool stuff. It's just that in The Return, everything feels so damn insubstantial and whatever-ish.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 2019
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby N. Needleman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:08 pm

missoulamt wrote:Started rewatching FWWM yesterday. The part where Laura goes home in the middle of the day, hesitating to go into her bedroom because of Bob possibly being there, and the jolt of fear that literally goes through the body when you start noticing he's in the room. Almost as if you were there in the room yourself. Followed by the evening dinner scene with Wise and Lee. Nothing in the Return comes close to that level of intensity, in my opinion. Especially Freddie's fight scene...

Seeing it again I was reminded how FWWM remains really scary to this day. The Return is lightweight by comparison.


There's a thread for these random musings you have and it's not this one.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
LateReg
Posts: 869
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby LateReg » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:17 am

eyeboogers wrote:
missoulamt wrote:Started rewatching FWWM yesterday. The part where Laura goes home in the middle of the day, hesitating to go into her bedroom because of Bob possibly being there, and the jolt of fear that literally goes through the body when you start noticing he's in the room. Almost as if you were there in the room yourself. Followed by the evening dinner scene with Wise and Lee. Nothing in the Return comes close to that level of intensity, in my opinion. Especially Freddie's fight scene...

Seeing it again I was reminded how FWWM remains really scary to this day. The Return is lightweight by comparison.


I understand your point, and "Fire Walk With Me" is my favorite film. However, while "The Return" to some (me included) falls short on jump-scares, it ultimately is the more frightening of the two. F.ex. when part 18 finished it left me in a somewhat hyperventilating state. And I've heard that others had a similar experience after the ending. "The Return" succeeds in creating a sort of existential fright, something that goes way deeper than any boogeyman. There is this this eerie feeling of "this is just wrong/off" in every frame of this series. It is the same thing that makes the nostalgia-crowd hate "The Return". The sense of unredeemable loss of innocence/opportunity combined with the slower than even real life pacing, the lack of music. It all combines to something that is deeply and utterly scary. This is how the artists get you to pay attention to their key message dig yourself out of the shit, even if it's not easy to do so, especially when it's not easy to do so. Pretty cool stuff in my book.

With all that defending done, there are things that are supposed to deliver those jump-scares. And for me, they are not working. The experiment breaking out of the glass box. Sarah Palmer attacking the bar creep. In terms of these not delivering I attribute it to Lynch using CGI instead of making it work in the camera. As such I think those scenes as conceived by Lynch/Frost have all the right ideas in them. The original show had the same issues whenever it defaulted to 1990's version of CGI.


Fire Walk With Me is one of the most visceral movies ever made. The last 30 minutes or so, especially, are completely terrifying. So, no, The Return does not achieve that level of visceral intensity, as few things do. But The Return is a more deeply satisfying and intellectual work of art - I've said before and I stand by it that it functions on more levels at once than any other film/series I've ever seen, and it is a thought-provoking, philosophical, psychological, emotional, historical, self-reflexive tour de force. But I was scared by the glass box and at least shocked and unnerved by Sarah Palmer - but both those scenes function better as artful, deeply meaningful experimentation to me, just like the whole of The Return. All that said, Part 8 is as visceral as they come even if not in the same way as FWWM, and I do find the Freddie fight to be visceral in and of itself as well. Meanwhile, the entire Part 18 is as UNSETTLING/UNNERVING as anything I've ever seen, and the final moments are easily as terrifying as FWWM, imo, and even more haunting. I don't think anything has ever affected me in that way; it has given me actual, creeping, tingling, 10 second-plus chills all 11 times I have seen it.

But I think the problem is that we'd compare the two separate beasts in the first place. The Return is not FWWM, or the original series for that matter. Isn't that part of its point, to not be those things? To break free of those comforts? To depict change as an inevitable thing? That we shouldn't long for those things? Don't get me wrong, I get the criticism and the comparison, and it's fair game to say that you wish it did this or that. But it is a different beast entirely, and that isn't necessarily a flaw. And the Freddie scene is not the same as those in FWWM, as it is not supposed to be.

Edit: There's an essay I read recently that focused on The Return as a work of art that refuses to erase the past or cover the lines of aging while pondering the cost of resurrection and the impossibility of returning to the past, unlike the newest Star Wars films (at least Force Awakens and Rogue One), for example, with their insertions of dead actors on living bodies. It instantly made me ponder the Bob orb. Lynch didn't try to recreate Bob, didn't stick a dead actor's head on a living stand-ins body, which he could have to create the illusion that he was still alive. Instead he showed the limitations, gave us another doppelganger of sorts rather than the impossible real thing we'd all crave, a mere imitation of what once was and in essence made us remember that he was gone. That's something to think about in this context and conversation.
User avatar
AXX°N N.
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby AXX°N N. » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:01 pm

LateReg wrote:Edit: There's an essay I read recently that focused on The Return as a work of art that refuses to erase the past or cover the lines of aging while pondering the cost of resurrection and the impossibility of returning to the past, unlike the newest Star Wars films (at least Force Awakens and Rogue One), for example, with their insertions of dead actors on living bodies. It instantly made me ponder the Bob orb. Lynch didn't try to recreate Bob, didn't stick a dead actor's head on a living stand-ins body, which he could have to create the illusion that he was still alive. Instead he showed the limitations, gave us another doppelganger of sorts rather than the impossible real thing we'd all crave, a mere imitation of what once was and in essence made us remember that he was gone. That's something to think about in this context and conversation.


I think this is a really interesting line of thought, and I find it true. The original had a similar dynamic, where on one hand it was this immersive other world, but yet at the same time self-reflexive and clearly playing with established tropes. The Return, as sequel, is hyper-aware of its being a sequel, with a bevy of things to touch base on, but not to the extant of presenting artifice that tries to hide the 'shortcomings' of the real-world. The plot defies expectation of what time has done to the characters, or you could even say defies the subconscious expectation that time for the characters, in a television way, even exists or has consequence; and yet because it is so deaf and dumb to the will of the characters, presents the passage of time as it operates in reality, as a blind force wholly separate from desire.
Recipe not my own. In a coffee cup. 3 TBS flour, 2 TBS sugar, 1.5 TBS cocoa powder, .25 TSP baking powder, pinch of salt. 3 TBS milk, 1.5 TBS vegetable oil, 1 TBS peanut butter. Add and mix each set. Microwave 1 minute 10 seconds. The cup will be hot.
missoulamt
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:11 am

It's easy to over-intellectualize things. I read one comment earlier in the thread where the poster suggested that one must do as Dr. Amp says, dig yourself out of the shit, to really learn to appreciate the greatness of the Return :) It becomes a little far fetched.

At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me. Not because I was expecting it to follow in the same footsteps as the original, but because I was hoping it would be as strong.
Agent Earle
Posts: 871
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:52 am

missoulamt wrote:It's easy to over-intellectualize things. I read one comment earlier in the thread where the poster suggested that one must do as Dr. Amp says, dig yourself out of the shit, to really learn to appreciate the greatness of the Return :) It becomes a little far fetched.

At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me. Not because I was expecting it to follow in the same footsteps as the original, but because I was hoping it would be as strong.


AMEN.
User avatar
Xavi
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:23 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Xavi » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:02 am

missoulamt wrote:It's easy to over-intellectualize things. I read one comment earlier in the thread where the poster suggested that one must do as Dr. Amp says, dig yourself out of the shit, to really learn to appreciate the greatness of the Return :) It becomes a little far fetched.

At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me. Not because I was expecting it to follow in the same footsteps as the original, but because I was hoping it would be as strong.


As strong as the original? In which Nadine had super power and that felt "A okay," whereas in TPS3 a guy with a green glove felt, uhh, weak? Does that make sense?
missoulamt
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:11 am

But that was in S2, wasn't it? And we all know S2 was deliberately made to be inferior to S1, so that S1 would appear stronger. Just the same way Freddie's fight scene was deliberately made to be unimpressive. Dig yourself out of the shit... ;)
missoulamt
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:09 am

Your comment about Nadine's superpowers vs Freddie's made me think. The difference is that you cared about Nadine. The same way you cared about Ed. That hadn't changed when Nadine walked up, showel on shoulder, to Ed let him know he was free. One of the stronger scenes from TR. It was beautiful and emotional and they still had chemistry.

There was nothing about Freddie, the Mitchum bros and their girlfriends and Hutch and Chantal that made me particularly care about them. The fact that DL and MF tried to inject as many of these minor storylines as possible probably didn't help.

There were a few exceptions. You cared about Dougie when he looked at Sonny Jim. Bushnell, when he stood up for Dougie. Or Norma standing up to the smiling salesman. Or Bobby still missing Shelley. I could go on... Interestingly, most of these characters are from the original.

I don't think it's down to nostalgia since you cared about them from the get go.
User avatar
eyeboogers
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby eyeboogers » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:21 am

missoulamt wrote:It's easy to over-intellectualize things. I read one comment earlier in the thread where the poster suggested that one must do as Dr. Amp says, dig yourself out of the shit, to really learn to appreciate the greatness of the Return :) It becomes a little far fetched.
.


I think you missed the point of my post entirely. First re-read the post, then re-watch "The Return", and then we can have this discussion. The Dr.Amp/Nadine/Ed plotline is not a tangent, it is the one corner of the 18 hours where the point he artists are trying to make is made explicit.
Poiuyt
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:26 am

Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Poiuyt » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:55 pm

I learned to dig myself out of the shit by not watching the new series ever again. Feels good

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests