Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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eyeboogers
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by eyeboogers »

Deep Thought wrote:Is it too simple to say Cooper is to Richard as Betty is to Diane Selwyn?
Definitely. The episode exploits our collective memory of the "Mulholland Dr." twist to insinuate that this might be reoccuring here. Is Cooper really Cooper? As the episode progresses even he starts to not believe he is truly a special agent. But then the last scene is definitive proof that he is Dale Cooper and Laura Palmer is not Carrie Page.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by Mr. Strawberry »

eyeboogers wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Is it too simple to say Cooper is to Richard as Betty is to Diane Selwyn?
Definitely. The episode exploits our collective memory of the "Mulholland Dr." twist to insinuate that this might be reoccuring here. Is Cooper really Cooper? As the episode progresses even he starts to not believe he is truly a special agent. But then the last scene is definitive proof that he is Dale Cooper and Laura Palmer is not Carrie Page.
Well, he claims to be Cooper, but why does he act so strangely? I remain very confused about the events depicted. Is it possible that Cooper went home to Vegas and this isn't him?

Back to the subject at hand, maybe using the Green Glove is not Cooper's refusal to face up to things or somehow avoid the dirty work. I mean, how does one go to battle against a supernatural being like BOB? Maybe what he's done is simply smart: Coordinate with The Giant in order to get an effective remedy in place. After all, what should Cooper do? Lure BOB into the Glass Box? Let BOB inside and then head for the Red Room?

Addressing the way this fight was executed, I have to say it's surprisingly over the top. Remember the simple but bone chilling way that BOB was typically presented? All the screaming and shaking and fire, to me at least, demonstrates how less can be more in certain situations.

Ultimately, I think that to even make BOB scary or intimidating to begin with is a huge challenge. The first time around, we weren't expecting him and didn't know what he was, and he filled us with dread as he was revealed throughout the story. But what about now, all these years later? We're so familiar with BOB at this point. Setting up a BOB encounter and making it truly frightening is no easy task.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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But the fight's over the topness may be one of the clues that what we are seeing may not be what it seems; or that it is an apocalyptic battle taking place in a small little room in the middle of nowhere, which is at least surreal and funny. Regardless of what anyone thinks of it, the scene stands out or perhaps sticks out. I think it's up to us to notice that and then think about why rather than take or critique it at face value. Which is what we're doing.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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Mr. Strawberry wrote:Addressing the way this fight was executed, I have to say it's surprisingly over the top. Remember the simple but bone chilling way that BOB was typically presented? All the screaming and shaking and fire, to me at least, demonstrates how less can be more in certain situations.
Are we referring to some other BOB? Frank Silva never exactly played it subtle. BOB was brute force, primal id and generally turned it up to eleven any time he appeared. All those shots of BOB inside the orb was just old footage of Frank doing Frank. It was not that manipulated. I loved it, but YMMV.
Back to the subject at hand, maybe using the Green Glove is not Cooper's refusal to face up to things or somehow avoid the dirty work. I mean, how does one go to battle against a supernatural being like BOB?
I think Freddie destroying BOB was the Fireman's plan, which Cooper agreed to and clearly knew something of. The problem was after. Cooper took his own initiative to attempt to kill 'two birds with one stone' - undo Laura's necessary death and try to rid the world of the larger 'extreme negative force' of Judy. As Frost says, this is hubris. Some evil can never be wholly conquered, it's a part of us. And life cannot be rewound and undone. If he'd stopped in the station - or at least looked for a different way to take on the problem of Judy/Sarah that did not involve expiating his own free-floating guilt over Laura/Caroline - everyone might have gone home happy.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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N. Needleman wrote:Are we referring to some other BOB? Frank Silva never exactly played it subtle. BOB was brute force, primal id and generally turned it up to eleven any time he appeared. All those shots of BOB inside the orb was just old footage of Frank doing Frank. It was not that manipulated. I loved it, but YMMV.
The BUF website actually revealed that most of the “Silva” footage was (very impressive) CGI, albeit definitely based closely on existing performances (particularly the scene in FWWM when Laura finds Bob looking for her diary). I think even on the original show Bob’s level of effectiveness was hit-or-miss depending on how well the director reigned Silva in. Lynch tended to get the best stuff, with the “Just You” couch scene being the high water mark (although Lynch probably also elicited Silva’s worst performance, in the extended Pilot).

Actually, this touches on a large part of the reason the scene feels cheap to me: the same few facial expressions for Bob are recycled over and over, adding to the video game feel. I’d initially assumed this was because they were pulling from a limited pool of outtake footage. But knowing now that the performance was fully created in a computer, it feels like budget-driven laziness to keep cycling the same few shots.
I think Freddie destroying BOB was the Fireman's plan, which Cooper agreed to and clearly knew something of. The problem was after. Cooper took his own initiative to attempt to kill 'two birds with one stone' - undo Laura's necessary death and try to rid the world of the larger 'extreme negative force' of Judy. As Frost says, this is hubris. Some evil can never be wholly conquered, it's a part of us. And life cannot be rewound and undone. If he'd stopped in the station - or at least looked for a different way to take on the problem of Judy/Sarah that did not involve expiating his own free-floating guilt over Laura/Caroline - everyone might have gone home happy.
Hmmm. We know Cooper told Cole about his “two birds” plan. However, the Fireman also says “Two birds with one stone” to Dale in the opening moments of TP:TR. Is your theory that in that moment the Fireman is warning Cooper against carrying out his plan? I’d assumed that the “two birds” thing was something Coop and the Fireman hatched together.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by Mr. Strawberry »

N. Needleman wrote:Are we referring to some other BOB? Frank Silva never exactly played it subtle. BOB was brute force, primal id and generally turned it up to eleven any time he appeared. All those shots of BOB inside the orb was just old footage of Frank doing Frank. It was not that manipulated. I loved it, but YMMV.
Yes, Frank Silva's performance was definitely turned up to eleven, I'm more referring to the overall presentation. For example I will never forget how much fright he shot into us as we sat there and watched him climb over the couch. He was oozing menace but the shot itself was quiet and simple, completely unlike the loud, busy action that we see in the Sheriff's Station.

N. Needleman wrote:I think Freddie destroying BOB was the Fireman's plan, which Cooper agreed to and clearly knew something of. The problem was after. Cooper took his own initiative to attempt to kill 'two birds with one stone' - undo Laura's necessary death and try to rid the world of the larger 'extreme negative force' of Judy. As Frost says, this is hubris. Some evil can never be wholly conquered, it's a part of us. And life cannot be rewound and undone. If he'd stopped in the station - or at least looked for a different way to take on the problem of Judy/Sarah that did not involve expiating his own free-floating guilt over Laura/Caroline - everyone might have gone home happy.
Darn it... Well, hey, at least someone went home happy, to Janey and Jimmy.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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Mr. Reindeer wrote:The BUF website actually revealed that most of the “Silva” footage was (very impressive) CGI, albeit definitely based closely on existing performances
That's what I mean. This is not a new performance, it's modeled off actual existing footage of Frank.
Actually, this touches on a large part of the reason the scene feels cheap to me: the same few facial expressions for Bob are recycled over and over, adding to the video game feel. I’d initially assumed this was because they were pulling from a limited pool of outtake footage. But knowing now that the performance was fully created in a computer, it feels like budget-driven laziness to keep cycling the same few shots.
Except we know from these discussions last year that Lynch actually prefers that low-budget look for some CGI and used it throughout S3. (Personally I thought it looked good)
Is your theory that in that moment the Fireman is warning Cooper against carrying out his plan? I’d assumed that the “two birds” thing was something Coop and the Fireman hatched together.
I always had to conclude the Fireman was trying to warn Cooper against "Richard and Linda". According to Gordon, Coop came up with his plan to kill "two birds with one stone" before he ever went into the Black Lodge - in mid-late Season 2. Cooper tells the Fireman he understands, but just like FWWM and trying to get Laura not to take the ring, he doesn't, not enough.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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N. Needleman wrote:Except we know from these discussions last year that Lynch actually prefers that low-budget look for some CGI and used it throughout S3. (Personally I thought it looked good)
Just to be clear, I thought the actual animation by BUF looked great; I just dislike the same animation being reused over and over. And as I’ve expressed before, I LOVE the instances of intentionally “low-budget” CGI, which look like Lynch’s paintings (and contrast wonderfully with the incredible stuff BUF did, like the frog-moth).
I always had to conclude the Fireman was trying to warn Cooper against "Richard and Linda". According to Gordon, Coop came up with his plan to kill "two birds with one stone" before he ever went into the Black Lodge - in mid-late Season 2. Cooper tells the Fireman he understands, but just like FWWM and trying to get Laura not to take the ring, he doesn't, not enough.
I sort of assumed that, since the Cooper/Gordon conversation happens at some ambiguous point offscreen, Cooper may have also had a conversation with the Giant and/or Fireman that led to this offscreen epiphany/plot.

Something that just occurred to me: in Episode 8, the Giant tells Cooper, “A path is formed by laying ONE STONE at a time.” Hm.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

N. Needleman wrote:Except we know from these discussions last year that Lynch actually prefers that low-budget look for some CGI and used it throughout S3. (Personally I thought it looked good)
Just to be clear, I thought the actual animation by BUF looked great; I just dislike the same animation being reused over and over. And as I’ve expressed before, I LOVE the instances of intentionally “low-budget” CGI, which look like Lynch’s paintings (and contrast wonderfully with the incredible stuff BUF did, like the frog-moth).
I always had to conclude the Fireman was trying to warn Cooper against "Richard and Linda". According to Gordon, Coop came up with his plan to kill "two birds with one stone" before he ever went into the Black Lodge - in mid-late Season 2. Cooper tells the Fireman he understands, but just like FWWM and trying to get Laura not to take the ring, he doesn't, not enough.
I sort of assumed that, since the Cooper/Gordon conversation happens at some ambiguous point offscreen, Cooper may have also had a conversation with the Giant and/or Fireman that led to this offscreen epiphany/plot.

Something that just occurred to me: in Episode 8, the Giant tells Cooper, “A path is formed by laying ONE STONE at a time.” Hm.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by StealThisCorn »

Let me just say - if there had been no Season 3 of Twin Peaks and I had written a fan script for one depicting the exact same scenes of Freddie punching out a Bob Orb with his super-strength green glove, I'll bet everyone here would call it silly and dumb and make zero effort to do any mental gymnastics to find a more charitable reading on its deeper meaning. I think an idea that is truly good should generally be seen as good no matter who has it. Attaching the name of Lynch or Frost to that idea does not, by itself, make an idea better. From the original series, for example, I never cared for the astrological plot about Jupiter and Saturn aligning to open a cosmic portal to the Lodges. I thought it was too literal and too physical and didn't feel like it came from the same place as Lynch's haunting, dreamy portrayals of the Red Room as a place both inside the mind and outside of time and space.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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Mr. Strawberry wrote: Well, he claims to be Cooper, but why does he act so strangely? I remain very confused about the events depicted. Is it possible that Cooper went home to Vegas and this isn't him?
You've got all the right puzzle pieces in play, but I put them together differently. I think that when you make a Tulpa you give up part of yourself. Notice the difference between Mr.C in ep.29's "How's Annie" moment and the joyless creature in "The Return". Dougie (not Cooper as Dougie but actual Dougie) is someone who has overtaken those aspects, full of appetite for joy and gluttony. So I think that what is happening in ep.18 is some combination of Dougie 2.0 having some of the righteous aspects that Cooper has now given up. Put this together with someone who is now standing between two worlds - and is starting to lose his footing in either, plus the "Richard and Linda" trap set up by Judy and you've got one confused secret agent. It is important to note that the change doesn't come when he crosses over, he is changed as soon as he exits the red room, with his new magician powers. It just gets progressively worse.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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Maybe some of you remember the repetitive boxing match on Sarah's TV? Maybe it is unrelated?

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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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I'll tell you why I love the Freddy fight scene; like Jimmy Scott singing Under The Sycamores, it's some weird creative shit that I'd never have thought of in a thousand years. Plus the visuals/sound is freaky.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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StealThisCorn wrote:Let me just say - if there had been no Season 3 of Twin Peaks and I had written a fan script for one depicting the exact same scenes of Freddie punching out a Bob Orb with his super-strength green glove, I'll bet everyone here would call it silly and dumb and make zero effort to do any mental gymnastics to find a more charitable reading on its deeper meaning. I think an idea that is truly good should generally be seen as good no matter who has it. Attaching the name of Lynch or Frost to that idea does not, by itself, make an idea better. From the original series, for example, I never cared for the astrological plot about Jupiter and Saturn aligning to open a cosmic portal to the Lodges. I thought it was too literal and too physical and didn't feel like it came from the same place as Lynch's haunting, dreamy portrayals of the Red Room as a place both inside the mind and outside of time and space.
I don't disagree with you. But the reason the scene is being discussed is because of everything - 16 totally unexpected, unpredictable hours - that came before it in The Return, and how this scene fits in with all of that, and then with what happens immediately after it. The sequence is incredibly bold from a narrative standpoint, and it seems to suggest certain things about reality, Cooper's flaws, narrative itself, fits in with the lo-fi aesthetics of The Return, etc. - all things that the season ended up being about in ways that nobody could have predicted while writing their "fan script." So I don't think it's as simple as what you suggest. It's about the exact stuff that comes before and after, and the fact that yes, the scene does stand/stick out in ways that should make you question it.
Last edited by LateReg on Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Post by LateReg »

N. Needleman wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:The BUF website actually revealed that most of the “Silva” footage was (very impressive) CGI, albeit definitely based closely on existing performances
That's what I mean. This is not a new performance, it's modeled off actual existing footage of Frank.
Actually, this touches on a large part of the reason the scene feels cheap to me: the same few facial expressions for Bob are recycled over and over, adding to the video game feel. I’d initially assumed this was because they were pulling from a limited pool of outtake footage. But knowing now that the performance was fully created in a computer, it feels like budget-driven laziness to keep cycling the same few shots.
Except we know from these discussions last year that Lynch actually prefers that low-budget look for some CGI and used it throughout S3. (Personally I thought it looked good)
My response to this is going to be predictable: I think, once again, that the fact that they did choose to recycle the same few shots is very purposeful and worthy of examination. Forget about budget limitations for a moment. If it feels cheap or any certain way, why do you think that is? Lynch is a low-fi wizard, he could have stuck any number of shots inside that orb, Lost Highway-face-on-face-low-budget-style if he chose to, but he didn't. He stuck with what he had. He probably liked what he had because of what it meant to him. So what did it mean to him? If it has a video game feel, then why? That's not inherently a bad thing if this final leftfield gonzo trick before officially pulling the rug out and moving on to the meat of the story is supposed to feel that way, right? If it sucks you out of the story because it just doesn't feel right, that's usually a bad thing, but this feels like a huge narrative gamble to me, no matter one's interpretation, so why is the scene composed in this fashion? Full circle, why is Bob's footage cyclically recycled rather than unique? For what it's worth, I've never had a problem with that element of the scene. It somehow fits the scene. It more than fits the lo-fi aesthetic by calling attention to it, it's odd, it's wild, he's trapped in this orb, he's itching to get out (or back in!), he's just a face in a bubble that can't truly thrive unless he's inhabiting a human being. That aspect has always seemed right to me.
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