Freddie's fight scene in part 17

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Agent Earle
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:15 pm

Xavi wrote:
missoulamt wrote:It's easy to over-intellectualize things. I read one comment earlier in the thread where the poster suggested that one must do as Dr. Amp says, dig yourself out of the shit, to really learn to appreciate the greatness of the Return :) It becomes a little far fetched.

At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me. Not because I was expecting it to follow in the same footsteps as the original, but because I was hoping it would be as strong.


As strong as the original? In which Nadine had super power and that felt "A okay," whereas in TPS3 a guy with a green glove felt, uhh, weak? Does that make sense?


Nadine was always strictly a second- or even third-tier character, sort of a comic relief, you might say (together with Dick Tremayne, Andy, Lucy, Lana and the Milfords... you get the point). Even when S 2 was at its most "unbearable", Cooper's (and the Palmers', though they pretty much exited the narrative by that point) storyline was always handled with utmost care, seriousness and professionalism (though haters of Windom Earle's comic book villain-ness might disagree :) ). Whereas the guy with a green glove was brought into what is the very main core of the TP universe in terms of plotting, overall thematic importance, resonance, the series' longevity etc. etc. Come to think of it, watching the climatic battle between Bob and Freddy in some sense felt as if super-powerful Nadine would step out of her confines of ridiculousness and become the major force that defeated this all-encompassing, omnipresent evil that became the original series' main antagonist by the S 2 finale (later given additional prominence by FWWM). In other words, it felt like something that a 7-year old me might find a cool idea.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:00 am

Amen.
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mtwentz
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby mtwentz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:12 am

Is Freddy with the Green Glove wny weirder than One Saliva Bubble or BOB and LMFAP coming from a Creamed Corn planet?
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eyeboogers
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby eyeboogers » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:16 am

Honestly I think it is a matter of you guys not seeing the forest for the trees. On my original watch I outright hated the second half of ep.17. Definitely the green glove scene felt flat and unearned. But by about ten minutes into ep.18 I realised what the writers were up to, and it all fell into place. Episode 17 and that fight scene is that way because thematically you cannot have episode 18 without it. It is only long film, an uninterrupted story, where each element has a cause and effect. If all of the explanation people have given you - that even Mark Frost has given you, still don't make sense to you, then there's no point in continuing this debate. I don't think you want to like it for whatever reason.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:07 pm

missoulamt wrote:At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me.


We got that many pages ago. Your feelings are clear. This thread isn't your forum to repeatedly insult and condescend to anyone who liked a scene (or series) you didn't.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Hester Prynne » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:20 am

This is a little out there, but I read an interesting Reddit post about Laura/Carrie Page, and the poster suggested what has happened in 18 is that Cooper and Laura have exited the story of Twin Peaks as fictional characters and into our world. When Laura hears Sarah calling her name at the end of 18, she realizes she was never real and no one else was either.

On a rewatch, it felt like riding uphill on a slow roller coaster, and at the end of 16, accelerating down and slamming through the end of 18, even with 18's slower pace. Reminded me a lot of how I felt watching the MD ending the first time. In the context of the Freddie scene, I think it's right at the end of 16 where the show takes a turn with Audrey's dance, and we start questioning what we've been watching before. I think Freddie's fight scene and the rest of the Sheriff's Department scene is an extension of that in some way - that it is wild and over the top to make us question what is really happening and if it's really happening - especially with Cooper's superimposed face saying "we live inside a dream." It feels like characters exerting control to manipulate and choose their own destinies in a fictional story where they have no control. I like Cappy's idea that it is the destruction of Bob as a plot device. We also see the destruction of Laura Palmer's murder as a plot device as well - the focal point of the original show.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:00 am

N. Needleman wrote:
missoulamt wrote:At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me.


We got that many pages ago. Your feelings are clear. This thread isn't your forum to repeatedly insult and condescend to anyone who liked a scene (or series) you didn't.


Tone it down a notch, Needle - nobody was insulting and condescending nobody. I get it that this thread is devoted to another topic, but since it's a rather broad one and can well tie into one's general feelings about the new season, it's hard to not get into those when contemplating about the topic at hand. People are allowed to express their feelings regarding the series, aren't they? I mean, there have been a lot of repeating til now, sure, and on many various threads, but it came from BOTH sides.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:55 am

Agent Earle wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:
missoulamt wrote:At the end of the day, it's all down to personal taste and what moves you. On a whole, TR felt disappointing to me.


We got that many pages ago. Your feelings are clear. This thread isn't your forum to repeatedly insult and condescend to anyone who liked a scene (or series) you didn't.


Tone it down a notch, Needle - nobody was insulting and condescending nobody. I get it that this thread is devoted to another topic, but since it's a rather broad one and can well tie into one's general feelings about the new season, it's hard to not get into those when contemplating about the topic at hand. People are allowed to express their feelings regarding the series, aren't they? I mean, there have been a lot of repeating til now, sure, and on many various threads, but it came from BOTH sides.


Actually no, Missula started attacking those that saw qualities in the scene and series as being brainwashed or over intellectualising things. It would make sense to start this thread if Missula was curious about why others liked it, but if it was only to write page after pag about how the only right thing to think is that the scene is a crime against humanity, then it should have been a diary entry not a forum thread.
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:32 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Actually no, Missula started attacking those that saw qualities in the scene and series as being brainwashed or over intellectualising things. It would make sense to start this thread if Missula was curious about why others liked it, but if it was only to write page after pag about how the only right thing to think is that the scene is a crime against humanity, then it should have been a diary entry not a forum thread.


It's in the eye of the beholder: I wouldn't interpret what he wrote as "attack", more as his own stance about a certain cognitive approach to the newest TP material and whether he deems the material itself to be worth it. But I can see how I may be bias in passing such a judgement, given that I share Missula's thinking about the quality of the new series, I'll give you that.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:53 pm

He's said repeatedly that many of us are deluding ourselves. He can stop making value judgments about the rest of us now.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
missoulamt
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby missoulamt » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:06 am

Hopefully we can stay on topic without getting personal. It's a discussion forum after all where a difference of opinion is a good thing.

Would Nadine killing off Bob in the original have felt like a suitable finale? Probably not.

I don't see how Freddie with the green glove is more appropriate.

Bob should be handled with care, because of his epic nature and it was fine up to that scene. But when "battling" with Freddie it suddenly went to a comic relief situation almost. As if TP was a computer action game. It was in stark contrast to the subtlety of the original. Bob was often over the top there as well, but it was always frightening. The feeling watching Freddie's fight scene was not one of fear but disbelief at how they chose to go about it.
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trismegistus
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby trismegistus » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:53 am

I know it may have been twenty five plus years and never officially aired on TV but anyone else here remember the last time Bob was killed? Does anyone find any parallels?
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Xavi
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Xavi » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:43 am

missoulamt wrote:Hopefully we can stay on topic without getting personal. It's a discussion forum after all where a difference of opinion is a good thing.

Would Nadine killing off Bob in the original have felt like a suitable finale? Probably not.

I don't see how Freddie with the green glove is more appropriate.

Bob should be handled with care, because of his epic nature and it was fine up to that scene. But when "battling" with Freddie it suddenly went to a comic relief situation almost. As if TP was a computer action game. It was in stark contrast to the subtlety of the original. Bob was often over the top there as well, but it was always frightening. The feeling watching Freddie's fight scene was not one of fear but disbelief at how they chose to go about it.


Factually the green glove superpower did not come out of the blue, whereas Nadine's superpower in "the original" did. It lasted until TPS3 for Nadine to progress from an annoying flat character to a mature emphatic human being, thanks to Dr Amp's golden shovel.

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zeronumber
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby zeronumber » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:51 am

I distinctly recall that early draft had plotted Jack Nance as the bearer of the green glove. Sadly this was not to be.

Yet it would have set this particular arc strataspheric if it only had been.

I can only imagine...

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Freddie's fight scene in part 17

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:22 am

I thought Nadine was a great character in S1. Like most of the comic relief in S1, her nagging angry persona was amusing without being over the top, and she had an underlying poignancy that climaxed in E7/E8 (and returned briefly in E29). I don’t think it’s fair to write off her nuanced S1 portrayal just because she ended up having one of the stupidest storylines in S2.

I don’t believe there was ever an “early draft” of TP where Nance wore the glove, since he died in 1997. The sense I get is that DKL conceived Green Glove as a non-TP-related Nance vehicle, presumably at some point in the ‘90s.

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