World of Blue - Archived Forum 2007-2022

Maybe a Season 4 would explore "who is the dreamer" -- whether it is one dream or a collective one.

As Audrey said, "sometimes dreams harken a truth." Both Cooper and Laura dreamed of what seemed like future events -- or did the fact they dreamed them will those events into being?

Also, is the Fireman a big part of this collective dream? If the mauve space is representative of Cooper's mind/dreams, there's a parallel with the Fireman and Jack Rabbit's Palace. Jack Rabbit's Palace is the Fireman's mind. We see him levitate with eyes closed as though he's sleeping, and Laura appears as a golden orb from his dreams. Senorita Dido is the Fireman's Naido. There is also a mechanism similar to the one on top of the satellite containing the mauve room in the Fireman's palace that goes off after the Trinity explosion.

I took from it that the White Lodge was portrayed as the fortress inside Cooper's mind, in which the Fireman, the true identity of the Giant that Cooper suspected was Margaret's husband, was the caretaker of. He had to sneak through a window to get in, and was subsequently ejected just before the Mother tracked him down. Denied access again.

Jack Rabbit's Palace was an entrance to the White Lodge as envisioned by Cooper in his dream because Cooper, while out in the real world, suspected that Briggs has been to the White Lodge during one of his disappearances.

As for Audrey, it's difficult to reconcile her role in Cooper's dream, at least for me, because her scenes were changed. If I had to make a guess I would say it was Cooper's vision of Audrey's struggle to be a good person with so much negative influence in her life and much like Cooper's struggle in his own dreamscape, Audrey was trapped in a prison of her own mind, a coma from which she can't awaken after the bomb in the Bank.

- Mordeen

The character of Fireman is also very interesting indeed. The question is whether Giant and Fireman are the same character, and from I have seen I think so. I may be wrong though, and what I am going to write next is obviously speculation, as only Lynch and Frost would know the complete story, and some people would even doubt that. The great thing though is that we keep debating these facts years and decades after the show had aired, discovering or uncovering new details, which is quite telling.

Mordeen, I agree with you on the fortress, all of this was going on inside of Cooper's mind, but before we get into that, let us recap what we saw in the original TP. Giant appeared occasionally, was quite tall, and had a Señor Droolcup as his alter persona that was moving very slowly. It is only in the episode 29 that I finally had an idea on what he might represent, and it is both mythological and astronomical. Namely, Jupiter as a planet is a gas giant (the Giant) that is very slow at tracing the night sky (Señor Droolcup). It is a slow planet. Another clue is both Droolcup's and especially Giant's attire. It has the color palette of Jupiter's disk, and Giant's bow-tie mimics Jupiter's well known Great Red Spot. And at the moment when both Giant and LMFAP are seated in the waiting room, he proclaims "one and the same". Not in the sense that they are the same entity, but that it is the time of their conjunction, which indeed it is, as it opens the gate for Cooper. According to this logic LFMAP represents Saturn, which makes sense, as it is a visibly ringed planet (Jupiter has them too but they are very dim), there is a Saturn lamp on the table next to where Cooper is seated, and mythologically Saturn is in control of time, which episode 29 demonstrates when LMFAP rubs his palms, and then later again in FWWM when he circles his hand over the ring. It may have been mentioned already that carpet in the Fireman's place resembles the cloudy pattern of Jupiter's surface.

Following this script, we could argue that Señorita Dido represents goddess Juno ("Goddess of marriage and childbirth"), which again makes sense knowing what we have been shown concerning Laura's birth in Season 3. Yes, there is an abundance of mythology and psychology in TP. Why is he now called the Fireman? The answer again may be found in mythology, it is not clear to me, and I did not pursue it any further after Season 3 ended.

It is interesting though that we never saw Giant's doppleganger, and that he was not present in the "convenience room" scene in FWWM. Unless he had somebody there sit in for him... Since this thread is about season 4, if what is written above indeed makes some sense, it would be certainly a possibility to see Giant's doppleganger, as he must have one too. Whether we do get to see him is up to Lynch and Frost.

Part 3 scene with Naido (an anagram for Diane) and American girl to me represents two states of consciousness in Cooper's mind. Taking the (Jacob's) ladder up he moved to a higher state (that was cosmic), and that negative force that was after him in the lower chamber did not have access to him there. The whole scene is very, very symbolic, we will discover details about it years after we have seen it first. What would have happened had he climbed the ladder again? Had he stayed up there? Naido fell off and landed in Jack Rabbit's place, what would have happened had Cooper jumped after her? Maybe he would have awaken from his dream? For some reason this falling off of Naido reminds me of that scene from Tom Petty's "Runnin' Down the Dream" where the midget falls off and Tom sails away shortly afterwards. They do not make music and videos like that anymore.



[edit: It looks like there is a Jack Rabbit's place in that black and white video , as well as a phonograph, a ladder, NYC with a box-like building, a number 8 ball that is used to alter the dream/timeline, a midget with eyes with no irises, an upside-down version of Fireman's place/fortress, numerous explosions in the sky (from fireworks here though), Natives... notice how Tom Petty loses his shoes as he runs away from rabbits, and lastly the video opens and closes with Tom Petty and red curtains in the background, this is from 1989 of all things... There is no checkerboard pattern here but "Don't come around here no more" does have them.]

Naido is a tricky one because her name isn't a proper anagram of Diane, and she breaks the tulpa rule that they're identical to their original. This may have already been pointed out by someone but when Part 3 (my personal favorite) aired and "Naido" appeared in the credits it struck me that since the actress was Asian, perhaps the name had a symbolic meaning in an Asian language, but it doesn't. So started playing with anagrams (wanna hear what Dougie's family's first names spell?) and that didn't work either, so of course the next step was to try the name backward. Odian = to hate, or they hate depending upon usage. What's the opposite of hate? It's what's needed to open the door to the White Lodge.

- Mordeen

In my native language odian is a sort of an enitity that can perform black magic and disguise itself to appear whatever they want to viewer to see

True, Naido is not a tulpa in the sense that we have accepted the term, but she evolves into Diane, or what we think is Diane, but that seems to be a dream anyway so it is hard to see what rules are at play except some dream logic. Regarding Cooper and Diane at the motel, their love was clearly carnal at that moment, perhaps it should have been Platonic instead, and the results may have been different ("perfect love opening the lodge"). The fact that they drove to a desert (if my memory serves me right, since I did not watch that episode since it had aired), could allude to a place of temptation. The Cooper that just came out of lodge seems to me is quite a composite figure, there is something "Mr. C.-esque" to him, such a portrayal was IMO not accidental. From a certain point of view, Diane is then a scarlet woman (considering her hair color), alluding to her allegorical role. Food for though as always.

Dougie Jones anagram? Never tried it, hope it's "fit to print".

boske wrote: Following this script, we could argue that Señorita Dido represents goddess Juno ("Goddess of marriage and childbirth"), which again makes sense knowing what we have been shown concerning Laura's birth in Season 3. Yes, there is an abundance of mythology and psychology in TP. Why is he now called the Fireman? The answer again may be found in mythology, it is not clear to me, and I did not pursue it any further after Season 3 ended.

I can't help but think of Athena's birth when watching the Laura orb materialize out of the Fireman's head. From what I remember, Zeus was afraid of Athena's power, so he swallowed Athena's still pregnant mother, then one day, Athena sprang forth from his head, fully formed. The Laura orb isn't fully formed, but her homecoming photo being visible within might suggest that.

There seems to be other similarities to Greek/Roman myth littered throughout The Return. A lot of people pointed out the similarities between Orpheus and Eurydice with Cooper walking Laura through the woods. Also, the etymology of Odessa goes back to Odyssey (it's the feminine form of Odyssey, according to babynamewizard.com), and I think Frost has said that S3 is Agent Cooper's own version of the Odyssey.

It's also interesting to think about The Experiment/Mother vomiting BOB and possibly some other characters onto the world -- Cronos was forced to throw up Hades, Poseidon and a bunch of other gods by Zeus, as Cronos had swallowed them as infants, fearful of their power. Is this just a stylistic similarity, or could we use the myths to draw conclusions about the motives of The Fireman, The Experiment, and BOB? In S3, Mr. C, in league with BOB, does seem to be trying to harness or attain The Experiment's power. Was The Experiment holding BOB and other Lodge spirits in, fearful of their power? If that's the case, then maybe The Experiment didn't intentionally spit BOB onto the world as a punishment or curse for the a-bomb. Perhaps instead, the a-bomb weakened The Experiment itself, and forced it to free the entities it had been working so hard to contain.

I think if there is any war between the spirit characters of Twin Peaks, it's divided between good (The Fireman, and sometimes MIKE/The Arm) and evil (BOB, The Jumping Man). But it's interesting to think about the conflict as being between old (The Experiment, maybe MIKE/The Arm?) and new (BOB, and maybe The Jumping Man?). BOB, via Mr. C, seems to be plotting against The Experiment throughout S3, and The Fireman, an older spirit, working to destroy BOB.

The original series and FWWM touched on this briefly, what with MIKE describing BOB as a sort of "familiar" or subordinate who has somehow gone rogue, collecting garmonbozia for himself. That would suggest that MIKE might be older, part of the generation which included The Experiment and The FIreman. It's not even a certain thing that Philip Gerard is the host for The Arm -- although I am inclined to think that, Gerard could himself be the host for The Experiment, and The Experiment is named MIKE, and BOB and MIKE's rivalry from the original series takes the form of Mr. C (BOB) trying to capture MIKE/The Experiment in S3. And perhaps The Arm is just The Arm.

But getting back to The Fireman, I think he might've been The Fireman in the original series as well, he just never formally introduced himself as such. Being a non-linear spirit, he might've assumed that Agent Cooper already knew him.

krishnanspace wrote:In my native language odian is a sort of an enitity that can perform black magic and disguise itself to appear whatever they want to viewer to see

Thank you. There are layers of interpretation here, we still do not know if Naido helped Cooper or not. From the looks of it, she sacrificed for him. The clue may be that she is blind and cannot speak, yet she knows her way around and what she can potentially accomplish.

With "Ronette/American Girl", I always had the feeling that the mother she refers to was the "mother of harlots". To me it ties into the Frost first book as well (having read it before I saw part 3), as well as what we see in part 8 and the NYC box, as the thumping is identical in both places. Mystery, Babylon the Great.

krishnanspace wrote:In my native language odian is a sort of an enitity that can perform black magic and disguise itself to appear whatever they want to viewer to see

That's really interesting, because I've long suspected that when Naido turns into Diane, it's less of a revealing of a true form than it is her assuming a specific form for a specific purpose. But I can't tell whether Naido is intentionally turning into Diane for some reason, or if Cooper's intense psychodrama following Mr. C's demise somehow morphs Naido. The answer might be somewhere in between.

Cappy wrote:

boske wrote: Following this script, we could argue that Señorita Dido represents goddess Juno ("Goddess of marriage and childbirth"), which again makes sense knowing what we have been shown concerning Laura's birth in Season 3. Yes, there is an abundance of mythology and psychology in TP. Why is he now called the Fireman? The answer again may be found in mythology, it is not clear to me, and I did not pursue it any further after Season 3 ended.

I can't help but think of Athena's birth when watching the Laura orb materialize out of the Fireman's head. From what I remember, Zeus was afraid of Athena's power, so he swallowed Athena's still pregnant mother, then one day, Athena sprang forth from his head, fully formed. The Laura orb isn't fully formed, but her homecoming photo being visible within might suggest that.

There seems to be other similarities to Greek/Roman myth littered throughout The Return. A lot of people pointed out the similarities between Orpheus and Eurydice with Cooper walking Laura through the woods. Also, the etymology of Odessa goes back to Odyssey (it's the feminine form of Odyssey, according to babynamewizard.com), and I think Frost has said that S3 is Agent Cooper's own version of the Odyssey.

It's also interesting to think about The Experiment/Mother vomiting BOB and possibly some other characters onto the world -- Cronos was forced to throw up Hades, Poseidon and a bunch of other gods by Zeus, as Cronos had swallowed them as infants, fearful of their power. Is this just a stylistic similarity, or could we use the myths to draw conclusions about the motives of The Fireman, The Experiment, and BOB? In S3, Mr. C, in league with BOB, does seem to be trying to harness or attain The Experiment's power. Was The Experiment holding BOB and other Lodge spirits in, fearful of their power? If that's the case, then maybe The Experiment didn't intentionally spit BOB onto the world as a punishment or curse for the a-bomb. Perhaps instead, the a-bomb weakened The Experiment itself, and forced it to free the entities it had been working so hard to contain.

I think if there is any war between the spirit characters of Twin Peaks, it's divided between good (The Fireman, and sometimes MIKE/The Arm) and evil (BOB, The Jumping Man). But it's interesting to think about the conflict as being between old (The Experiment, maybe MIKE/The Arm?) and new (BOB, and maybe The Jumping Man?). BOB, via Mr. C, seems to be plotting against The Experiment throughout S3, and The Fireman, an older spirit, working to destroy BOB.

The original series and FWWM touched on this briefly, what with MIKE describing BOB as a sort of "familiar" or subordinate who has somehow gone rogue, collecting garmonbozia for himself. That would suggest that MIKE might be older, part of the generation which included The Experiment and The FIreman. It's not even a certain thing that Philip Gerard is the host for The Arm -- although I am inclined to think that, Gerard could himself be the host for The Experiment, and The Experiment is named MIKE, and BOB and MIKE's rivalry from the original series takes the form of Mr. C (BOB) trying to capture MIKE/The Experiment in S3. And perhaps The Arm is just The Arm.

But getting back to The Fireman, I think he might've been The Fireman in the original series as well, he just never formally introduced himself as such. Being a non-linear spirit, he might've assumed that Agent Cooper already knew him.

Yes to all of that. And as Giant had said to Cooper "it does not matter who I am, but where you have gone". It is hard to know what motivates these entities and what their relationship is. Regarding Athena, that would explain LMFAP's line "she is my cousin, but doesn't she look almost exactly like Laura Palmer?"

Regarding FWWM convenience store scene, Formica table could also be thought of as a representation of organic life as a whole ("green is its color") where its denizens are no more than mere ants to these entities that feed off of their pain and suffering. Cooper and Jeffries did get themselves into something way out of their league.

Very interesting discussion, and I have little to add except to say that I don't think Naido is meant to be thought of as a Tulpa. Diane was a Tulpa up through her demise in Part 16. IF (big IF) we see the real Diane in Part 17/18, then Naido was simply something else, a way of imprisoning Diane, but not a Tulpa. Also, even though it's not an exact anagram, it still seems to serve the purpose of concealing Diane in plain sight. Which is one reason I don't think it was ever supposed to be Audrey enclosed within Naido as someone had recently suggested. Someone had also once pointed out that some Asian languages sometimes put an "o" at the end of certain words, but I'm not up on that sort of thing other than seeing it here and there in foreign films. I really love the other ideas about Naido in this thread, though, especially from Krishnanspace and Cappy's followup thought, which I had never considered.

Mordeen wrote: (wanna hear what Dougie's family's first names spell?)

Yes. I believe I've seen this posted somewhere, either here or on the woolhouse boys FB. I forgot though. Remind us!

Soolsma wrote:

Mordeen wrote: (wanna hear what Dougie's family's first names spell?)

Yes. I believe I've seen this posted somewhere, either here or on the woolhouse boys FB. I forgot though. Remind us!

Yeah it was on the Woolhouse Boys Secrets spoiler group. I also thought Sonny Jim and Janey-E were names too bizarre to not have a hidden meaning so I added Dougie in on a hunch and played with the letters and the hyphen.

S O N N Y J I M J A N E Y - E D O U G I E

MY JOSIE JUDY ANNIE - GONE

Cosmic coincidence or intentional? Who knows, but weird nonetheless.

- Mordeen

krishnanspace wrote:In my native language odian is a sort of an enitity that can perform black magic and disguise itself to appear whatever they want to viewer to see

Awesome. I like that even better.

- Mordeen

Mordeen wrote:

krishnanspace wrote:In my native language odian is a sort of an enitity that can perform black magic and disguise itself to appear whatever they want to viewer to see

Awesome. I like that even better.

- Mordeen

But it's a folk lore that people in the rural areas believed around a 100 years ago