'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

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mtwentz
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'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:34 am

***************Russian Doll Spoilers*****************

I really enjoyed Russian Doll for what it is, don't get me wrong, it's one of the few shows I have watched and enjoyed since The Return.

However....

As I watch the 'time loops' explained, it really makes me appreciate more and more the approach Lynch and Frost took toward The Return.

The phrase time loop is never mentioned once. Frost/Lynch don't tell you anything directly- you the viewer are forced to infer: Sarah freaks out at Turkey Jerky's; a boxing match is looped over and over again in Sarah's bedroom; the beginning of The Return could very well be the 'end' chronologically...

I'm not saying The Return was perfect; I agree with Mr. Reindeer it appears to be a hot mess at certain points in the narrative. But it's just really satisfying when a show forces you to draw your own inferences and conclusions instead of spoon feeding you everything.

Agree? Disagree? Let the debate begin :-)
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Kilmoore
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:17 am

The problem for me isn't that things aren't explained, it's just that there is very little evidence that there is anything to explain in the first place. I honestly believe Lynch and Frost just threw mystic sounding stuff into the script, without ever intending it to fit into existing Twin Peaks material or even to have any internal logic at all.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:21 am

Kilmoore wrote:The problem for me isn't that things aren't explained, it's just that there is very little evidence that there is anything to explain in the first place. I honestly believe Lynch and Frost just threw mystic sounding stuff into the script, without ever intending it to fit into existing Twin Peaks material or even to have any internal logic at all.


So you don't think Sarah watching the TV playing the boxing scene on a loop signalled 'time loop' ?
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby LateReg » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:16 am

The Return is perfectly imperfect, just as INLAND EMPIRE, in Lynch's words, actually makes perfect sense. It is exactly as it needs to be. Describing it as a hot mess - which I wouldn't, as I see everything as locking perfectly into place on an intuitive level, and think that the series flows perfectly - doesn't necessarily have to have a negative connotation, but rather serve as more of a description of a series that traverses many emotions and genres and takes multiple viewings to understand how/whether it works. I'm slowly recovering, but even before The Return and then more so throughout and ever since, I had grown less enamored of too-tightly plotted narratives that stifle their spiritual potential by focusing on plot. So with Russian Doll, it's not so much that they explain everything, but that the series doesn't breathe the way that I've come to prefer. Russian Doll has some nifty ideas, but its all about connecting those ideas in a concrete way, and the filmmaking follows suit. Once again my fault in that is not so much with the (imo) easily derived conclusions about human connection or soulmates, but with the way the series feels as a result of its lack of true abstraction...once again, not simply narrative abstraction, but the overall tones and pacing of the piece that for me allow more spiritual dimensions to emerge. So in The Return, you see Sarah's TV in a time loop, and you FEEL the loop. Other programs would directly explore the loop itself and abandon the feeling itself. I did enjoy the series of course, but not nearly as much as I had hoped to. For all of its ideas, twists and refreshing brevity, it still feels symptomatic of the style of modern TV.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Kilmoore » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:40 am

mtwentz wrote:So you don't think Sarah watching the TV playing the boxing scene on a loop signalled 'time loop' ?

Maybe. Or maybe it symbolizes the monotony of her life. Maybe it's her favorite match she watches over and over again. Maybe it's something she watched back when Laura was alive and she obsessively re-watches it to live in her memories. The point is, there is a vague clue, from which you can draw up a number of theories, but nothing else to back those theories up. It's just fanfic based off random bits that either do or don't have a meaning in the first place.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:59 am

Kilmoore wrote:
mtwentz wrote:So you don't think Sarah watching the TV playing the boxing scene on a loop signalled 'time loop' ?

Maybe. Or maybe it symbolizes the monotony of her life. Maybe it's her favorite match she watches over and over again. Maybe it's something she watched back when Laura was alive and she obsessively re-watches it to live in her memories. The point is, there is a vague clue, from which you can draw up a number of theories, but nothing else to back those theories up. It's just fanfic based off random bits that either do or don't have a meaning in the first place.


I disagree. I think there a lot in The Return open to interpretation, but I think the time loop is pretty universally acknowledged by fans. And it began with 'Time and time again' in the Lodge.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Kilmoore » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:03 am

mtwentz wrote:I think the time loop is pretty universally acknowledged by fans

Is it now? I find that argument to be quite the weasel words. "Oh tons of people agree with me, just trust me." I haven't seen the time loop being any universally accepted truth anymore than any other theory. Of course, I can be convinced that it is if dozens of people back you up here.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:55 am

Kilmoore wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I think the time loop is pretty universally acknowledged by fans

Is it now? I find that argument to be quite the weasel words. "Oh tons of people agree with me, just trust me." I haven't seen the time loop being any universally accepted truth anymore than any other theory. Of course, I can be convinced that it is if dozens of people back you up here.


Hardly anyone left on here now:-)
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Andromedeaux » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:31 pm

mtwentz wrote:***************Russian Doll Spoilers*****************

I really enjoyed Russian Doll for what it is, don't get me wrong, it's one of the few shows I have watched and enjoyed since The Return.

However....

As I watch the 'time loops' explained, it really makes me appreciate more and more the approach Lynch and Frost took toward The Return.

The phrase time loop is never mentioned once. Frost/Lynch don't tell you anything directly- you the viewer are forced to infer: Sarah freaks out at Turkey Jerky's; a boxing match is looped over and over again in Sarah's bedroom; the beginning of The Return could very well be the 'end' chronologically...

I'm not saying The Return was perfect; I agree with Mr. Reindeer it appears to be a hot mess at certain points in the narrative. But it's just really satisfying when a show forces you to draw your own inferences and conclusions instead of spoon feeding you everything.

Agree? Disagree? Let the debate begin :-)


Yes, agree. Russian Doll had so much potential. I hated the ending, everything tied up nicely and reciprocal. The problem with pristine endings is that life isn't like that usually. It's weird and chaotic. Great filmmakers, musicians, artists, writers are aware of this and aren't afraid if something fails because it is too messy. sometimes life has beautiful moments, coincidences tidy endings, but much more often it brings something totally unexpected. The return does this so well.

Timeline resolution isn't a big deal for me, it's that it was done in a trite and easily digestible way.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby LateReg » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:22 am

Kilmoore wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I think the time loop is pretty universally acknowledged by fans

Is it now? I find that argument to be quite the weasel words. "Oh tons of people agree with me, just trust me." I haven't seen the time loop being any universally accepted truth anymore than any other theory. Of course, I can be convinced that it is if dozens of people back you up here.


I agree with mtwentz that the time loop is acknowledged by most fans. That's not to say that everyone agrees that that's exactly what's happening or how it's happening, but that when it is pointed out, it becomes a part of most people's theories about the show. And there is a ton of evidence to support the theory, even if there is none to prove it. When I was watching it, perhaps around part 7, I started to get the sense that something was going on with time, and I remember a lot of people on this board did as well; critics such as Film Comment's Violet Lucca had also stated that something fishy is going on with time. These thoughts are making the rounds and have been both during and after the series. Over time, these theories will become as "solid" as any about the original series or Mulholland Drive or INLAND EMPIRE. I think I may have made this exact comment before, but interpreting an abstract work of art is not fan fiction. No matter how outlandish the interpretation, it's still based on the text that the creators have provided. And I personally haven't seen anything on THIS board that is not in some way backed up by the text and the central ideas within it.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby 4815162342 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:33 pm

sorry for jumping in, I've been away awhile. What is the widely accepted time loop? Could someone briefly explain?

It is clear that some kind of time travel is involved, but I don't see a loop.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:19 pm

4815162342 wrote:sorry for jumping in, I've been away awhile. What is the widely accepted time loop? Could someone briefly explain?

It is clear that some kind of time travel is involved, but I don't see a loop.

If you notice in EP 17 and EP 18, Cooper loses Laura in the woods. At first I thought the episode 18 scene was just a repeat of the EP 17 scene, but there are slight differences, so it seems Cooper has tried to save Laura at least twice. This plays into the 'time and time again' phrase from Evolution of the Arm.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:30 am

mtwentz wrote:
4815162342 wrote:so it seems Cooper has tried to save Laura at least twice

Right, so Cooper has tried and failed at least twice. Still, where's the loop?
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:46 am

Kilmoore wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
4815162342 wrote:so it seems Cooper has tried to save Laura at least twice

Right, so Cooper has tried and failed at least twice. Still, where's the loop?


He also seems to keep reliving the Red Room sequence from E2, again with slight variations. So, the idea is that he gets out of the Red Room and keeps going through the same sequence of events, and when he loses Laura in the woods, ends up right back where he started.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:49 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:
mtwentz wrote:

Right, so Cooper has tried and failed at least twice. Still, where's the loop?


He also seems to keep reliving the Red Room sequence from E2, again with slight variations. So, the idea is that he gets out of the Red Room and keeps going through the same sequence of events, and when he loses Laura in the woods, ends up right back where he started.


Yes, and I think the parameters of the loop are up for debate. It could be from the time he escapes the Lodge up until the time he walks with Laura in the woods and she disappears, or it could be the loop is from Coop's Lodge escape up until he and Carrie approach the Palmer house. Of the exact nature of the loop might change each time (as it does in Russian Doll).

However, I think most of us agree is that as long as Coop keeps rescuing Laura, he will not be able to escape the time loop.
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