'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

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LateReg
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby LateReg » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:08 pm

mtwentz wrote:If you notice in EP 17 and EP 18, Cooper loses Laura in the woods. At first I thought the episode 18 scene was just a repeat of the EP 17 scene, but there are slight differences, so it seems Cooper has tried to save Laura at least twice. This plays into the 'time and time again' phrase from Evolution of the Arm.


And there's plenty more nods to time throughout the series, as well as the possibility of time being off its axis. A major one - the time and time stamps fluctuating on certain clocks, such as Diane's phone - COULD be a mistake, but it's such an easy edit in post production that I'm inclined to believe it's intentional, or was at least left in to add to the temporal confusion.

Could you do me a favor and point out the differences between Cooper's walk in the woods in Parts 17 and 18? Much appreciated.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:23 pm

LateReg wrote:
mtwentz wrote:If you notice in EP 17 and EP 18, Cooper loses Laura in the woods. At first I thought the episode 18 scene was just a repeat of the EP 17 scene, but there are slight differences, so it seems Cooper has tried to save Laura at least twice. This plays into the 'time and time again' phrase from Evolution of the Arm.


And there's plenty more nods to time throughout the series, as well as the possibility of time being off its axis. A major one - the time and time stamps fluctuating on certain clocks, such as Diane's phone - COULD be a mistake, but it's such an easy edit in post production that I'm inclined to believe it's intentional, or was at least left in to add to the temporal confusion.

Could you do me a favor and point out the differences between Cooper's walk in the woods in Parts 17 and 18? Much appreciated.


I'll have to look again, haven't watched for ages. And I may be confusing Cooper in the Woods being different with the Black Lodge being different.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:19 pm

I don't really even know what "Russian Doll" is (I don't watch any shows off the internet), but I also am annoyed when things are too tidy. However, what has annoyed me somewhat when reading "interpretations" of S3 or the whole of "TP" is that so many fans strive to do just that - connect all these plot elements using fan fiction tactics (i.e., going outside of anything that's on screen, and also outside of common sense about the way the creators work) so that they have some concrete-to-them explanation to put the show in a tidy case box marked "solved". (Of course the main thing these folks harp on is that it's all a literal sleep dream or hallucination - uh, no.) It's not meant to be "solved" but experienced. S3 has a shit ton of technical and storytelling problems, but I found its looseness refreshing.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:00 am

IcedOver wrote:I don't really even know what "Russian Doll" is (I don't watch any shows off the internet), but I also am annoyed when things are too tidy. However, what has annoyed me somewhat when reading "interpretations" of S3 or the whole of "TP" is that so many fans strive to do just that - connect all these plot elements using fan fiction tactics (i.e., going outside of anything that's on screen, and also outside of common sense about the way the creators work) so that they have some concrete-to-them explanation to put the show in a tidy case box marked "solved". (Of course the main thing these folks harp on is that it's all a literal sleep dream or hallucination - uh, no.) It's not meant to be "solved" but experienced. S3 has a shit ton of technical and storytelling problems, but I found its looseness refreshing.

If it was just a dream or hallucination, it would essentially be about one person and their internal conflict, and everyone else would merely be figments of their imagination. I prefer to believe that Hank is real.

So from now on when I hear arguments in favor of the dream / hallucination theories, I will repeat to myself:
Hank is real. Fear the Domino.
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby IcedOver » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:42 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:If it was just a dream or hallucination, it would essentially be about one person and their internal conflict, and everyone else would merely be figments of their imagination. I prefer to believe that Hank is real.

So from now on when I hear arguments in favor of the dream / hallucination theories, I will repeat to myself:
Hank is real. Fear the Domino.


Well of course these folks draw ammunition from the line "who is the dreamer?" which it was unwise to include because the line of text does not even invite one to ask who a specific dreamer is. It's a universal idea about a dream as metaphor. So they say it's Coop or Laura, the whole show being part of their fantasy, brain death as Laura died, whatever poppycock nonsense fan fiction they can cook up. I read comments from some people who believes it was all part of Freddie's dream! If anybody is a "dreamer" whose dream the characters live inside, it's the creators of the show.

Then you have some folks talking about alternate realities. A guy on Reddit is saying that because a camera frames Janey differently in one shot (can't even figure out what he's talking about), that is a "mirrored reality" that happens within a scene. Another said that because an establishing shot of Buckhorn is reused, that time has reset. I suspect some drugs or perhaps just youth are involved in many of these ideas.
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IcedOver
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby IcedOver » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:43 am

IcedOver wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:If it was just a dream or hallucination, it would essentially be about one person and their internal conflict, and everyone else would merely be figments of their imagination. I prefer to believe that Hank is real.

So from now on when I hear arguments in favor of the dream / hallucination theories, I will repeat to myself:
Hank is real. Fear the Domino.


Well of course these folks draw ammunition from the line "who is the dreamer?" which it was unwise to include because the line of text does not even invite one to ask who a specific dreamer is. It's a universal idea about a dream as metaphor. So they say it's Coop or Laura, the whole show being part of their fantasy, brain death as Laura died, whatever poppycock nonsense fan fiction they can cook up. I read comments from some people who believe it was all part of Freddie's dream! If anybody is a "dreamer" whose dream the characters live inside, it's the creators of the show.

Then you have some folks talking about alternate realities. A guy on Reddit is saying that because a camera frames Janey differently in one shot (can't even figure out what he's talking about), that is a "mirrored reality" that happens within a scene. Another said that because an establishing shot of Buckhorn is reused, that time has reset. I suspect some drugs or perhaps just youth are involved in many of these ideas.
I DON'T FEEL GOOD!!!!!
LateReg
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby LateReg » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:28 am

IcedOver wrote:I don't really even know what "Russian Doll" is (I don't watch any shows off the internet), but I also am annoyed when things are too tidy. However, what has annoyed me somewhat when reading "interpretations" of S3 or the whole of "TP" is that so many fans strive to do just that - connect all these plot elements using fan fiction tactics (i.e., going outside of anything that's on screen, and also outside of common sense about the way the creators work) so that they have some concrete-to-them explanation to put the show in a tidy case box marked "solved". (Of course the main thing these folks harp on is that it's all a literal sleep dream or hallucination - uh, no.) It's not meant to be "solved" but experienced. S3 has a shit ton of technical and storytelling problems, but I found its looseness refreshing.


100% agree with all of this (except the technical and storytelling problems).
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby 4815162342 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:58 pm

so, there are a couple of strange repeats and inconsistencies? ditto for the original series. again, time travel is confirmed, but I don't see a clear loop, just repetition with variations, based on changes made. but thanks for answering my question!
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Re: 'Russian Doll' Makes Me Appreciate S3 More (Spoilers for RD)

Postby LateReg » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:14 am

4815162342 wrote:so, there are a couple of strange repeats and inconsistencies? ditto for the original series. again, time travel is confirmed, but I don't see a clear loop, just repetition with variations, based on changes made. but thanks for answering my question!


I suppose there's not a "clear" loop, but I think there's just as much evidence of one as there is in Lost Highway. Lost Highway much more cleanly seals off the loop, for sure, but only with a single line. Repetition and cycles are a large part of all of Twin Peaks, of course, but in The Return it feels not just like history is repeating itself (Becky involved in the same situations as her mother) as cycles of abuse continue, but also that Cooper trapped in the past, frozen in time, unable to let go, desperately trying to change things, stuck in a loop on the way to enlightenment. It's tricky though when you have lines like "time and time again", which could signal either a loop or simply a cyclical pattern. But it's not like Lynch is ever going to spell out the loop, anyway. In 18 hours he shows us one bit of Red Room repetition that to many fans coincides with the show's themes to mean that it is just one of many times that Cooper, who himself has followed a White Knight pattern that has also only been subtly addressed, is going through the same motions.

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