Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

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perno
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by perno »

There are other examples of time reversal.

When the one armed man speaks to Leland/Laura while they're in the car (FWWM), he "clearly" refers to Laura's death as it had already happen. (quote from memory : "You should have seen the look on her face when it was opened. There was a stillness. Like a formica table top.")
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by kevbayer »

Although i do agree that we do see a couple of flash forward scenes (the annie scene being the most obvious) ,i don't see it likely that the Jeffries scene is from the future, only because we need to make a lot of assumptions at that point. Most notably that The dale/bob conflict was resolved and dale was essentially back to normal. It is more likely that Jeffries and Dale have not known each other personally. It would also seem that if it was a flash forward scene that Dale would already know certain things about the portals/time differences ect because of his time spent in the lodge.

Also when Albert states he has been gone for a year, that would also coincide with the amout of time Teressa Banks has been gone.

Although I also believe that it is more likely that Judy's identity is the Laura of the red-room as well
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by Brad D »

actually jefferies was gone for 2 years according to gordon.
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

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kevbayer wrote:i don't see it likely that the Jeffries scene is from the future, only because we need to make a lot of assumptions at that point. Most notably that The dale/bob conflict was resolved and dale was essentially back to normal.
Err... No. Unless I have missed something.
The scene isn't from the future. It obviously takes place at the time of the Theresa Bank's murder, just after Desmond disapeared to be precise.

But it seems that Jeffries himself come from the future as he seems to know the evil nature of Dale possessed by BOB (the "who do you thnik it is ?" thing).

We can guess (not be sure, just guess) that Jeffries' disappeared 2 years ago to go to the lodges. He must has spent at least 3 years in so he was able to see what happens to Dale/BOB just before he comes back to tell what he knows just after the TB's murder.

Time is a very mysterious thing in the lodges... :)
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by forgiveness »

jmichael wrote: I think it's the later - that he's been in the Lodge and saw what would be considered the future. He is clearly from the same time frame as Gordon, Cooper and Albert - they all know him and Albert references his being missing for a year.
But even if Jeffries came from a time proceeding the finale everyone would know him and be aware of his absence, although Dale seems only to have heard of him before. Why else would Cole introduce them?
perno wrote:There are other examples of time reversal.

When the one armed man speaks to Leland/Laura while they're in the car (FWWM), he "clearly" refers to Laura's death as it had already happen. (quote from memory : "You should have seen the look on her face when it was opened. There was a stillness. Like a formica table top.")
Agreed completely. Thanks for mentioning that one!
kevbayer wrote:Although i do agree that we do see a couple of flash forward scenes (the annie scene being the most obvious) ,i don't see it likely that the Jeffries scene is from the future, only because we need to make a lot of assumptions at that point. Most notably that The dale/bob conflict was resolved and dale was essentially back to normal. It is more likely that Jeffries and Dale have not known each other personally. It would also seem that if it was a flash forward scene that Dale would already know certain things about the portals/time differences ect because of his time spent in the lodge.

Also when Albert states he has been gone for a year, that would also coincide with the amout of time Teressa Banks has been gone.

Although I also believe that it is more likely that Judy's identity is the Laura of the red-room as well
I didn't mean that the Jeffries scene takes place from the future. I meant that Jeffries, himself, is from the future. Unfortunately for Coop, I don't see the Dale/BOB conflict as being resolved until 25 years following the finale. Although in the script, Jeffries appears in the F.B.I. office one year after Banks' death, in the film it was changed to a few days after her death.

And yes, as Brad D states, Jeffries had been gone for 2 years.
perno wrote: Err... No. Unless I have missed something.
The scene isn't from the future. It obviously takes place at the time of the Theresa Bank's murder, just after Desmond disapeared to be precise.

But it seems that Jeffries himself come from the future as he seems to know the evil nature of Dale possessed by BOB (the "who do you thnik it is ?" thing).

We can guess (not be sure, just guess) that Jeffries' disappeared 2 years ago to go to the lodges. He must has spent at least 3 years in so he was able to see what happens to Dale/BOB just before he comes back to tell what he knows just after the TB's murder.

Time is a very mysterious thing in the lodges... :)
Yes, perno, there is no question that the scene where Jeffries appears happens the day following Desmond finding the ring. I agree wholeheartedly that Jeffries is from the future since he seems aware of Dale's possession by BOB. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Jeffries first name is Phillip, ala Phillip Gerard, and he points at Dale in distrust which seems to recall "Without chemicals he points".

Also in the shooting script, Jeffries seemed to be shocked when he learns the date. Infact, it is almost as if his vanishing occurs because of this.
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by Jerry Horne »

One of the things about that whole sequence that fascinates me is Jeffries appearing right when Desmond disappears. What's the connection? Is there a one in, one out type of thing going on?
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by perno »

forgiveness wrote:
jmichael wrote: I think it's the later - that he's been in the Lodge and saw what would be considered the future. He is clearly from the same time frame as Gordon, Cooper and Albert - they all know him and Albert references his being missing for a year.
But even if Jeffries came from a time proceeding the finale everyone would know him and be aware of his absence, although Dale seems only to have heard of him before. Why else would Cole introduce them?
I must miss something... Or I don't understand.
Where is the problem ?

Let's say it works this way :

Year 0 : Jeffries works on the Judy's case and disappears and goes to the Lodges.
Year 1 : Dale Cooper enter the "blue rose" section of the FBI. So, he has no chance to meet Jeffries who's gone for a year.
Year 2 : Theresa dies. Jeffries come back from the future (year 3).
Year 3 : Laura dies. Coop goes to the Lodge. Bad Coop goes out. Jeffries knows the story and leaves the Lodges to tell what he knows but arrives in the past (year 2).

Where am I wrong ?
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by forgiveness »

Jerry Horne wrote:One of the things about that whole sequence that fascinates me is Jeffries appearing right when Desmond disappears. What's the connection? Is there a one in, one out type of thing going on?
But Jeffries doesn't appear at exactly the moment that Chet disappears. It is evening when Chet returns to the trailer park while it is morning when Phillip arrives. Thanks to Dale's speech to Cole we know the exact time. Despite the time difference between Deer Meadow and PA the times still don't coincide.
perno wrote:
I must miss something... Or I don't understand.
Where is the problem ?

Let's say it works this way :

Year 0 : Jeffries works on the Judy's case and disappears and goes to the Lodges.
Year 1 : Dale Cooper enter the "blue rose" section of the FBI. So, he has no chance to meet Jeffries who's gone for a year.
Year 2 : Theresa dies. Jeffries come back from the future (year 3).
Year 3 : Laura dies. Coop goes to the Lodge. Bad Coop goes out. Jeffries knows the story and leaves the Lodges to tell what he knows but arrives in the past (year 2).

Where am I wrong ?
No that's pretty well what I think too, except for Jeffries working on a case involving a Judy.

It's hard to explain. I was saying that the reasoning that Jeffries comes from the same time frame and not the future because Cole, Albert and Dale seem to know him this isn't really a valid argument. Regardless of what time frame Jeffries comes from Cole, Cooper and Albert would have heard of Phillip Jeffries because he vanished 2 years before Teresa died, before Jeffries appears in the FBI office.

The fact that Phillip seems to know Dale, however, while Dale doesn't seem to have met Phillip up to that point makes Jeffries coming from the future seem more likely.
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by kevbayer »

I dont think that we can assume the Jeffries knows about Dale/bob, his distrust in Dale is more likely to come from him never meeting Dale because of his absence

Am I missing something that Jeffries says that confirms he knows of the conflict or just because he distrusts Dale?
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by perno »

"Who do you think it is ?" is very different from "Who's this guy ?"
Jeffries doesn't only distrusts Dale... He also try, in some way, to make the others distrust him too.
Very unlikely if he hadn't seen him before.
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Re: Between Two Worlds: Josie's Fate

Post by Jonah »

Bumping this old thread as I came across it again today and I think it's such a great article on the Twin Peaks Archive site that it deserves to be seen again by a lot of new people on the board since word of the series revival has gotten out. Speaking of which, I came across it here again because with the new show coming back, I've been thinking a lot of Josie's fate again, and hoping we see more of it. I was always really enraptured by the concept of ghosts in the wood presented throughout the series (also in relation to Briggs, Ghostwood Properties, and other subtle allusions) that I was delighted with the weird and wonderful Josie-in-the-drawer-pull scene. And when I first learned of her originally intended to be present in the Red Room too, with her head gaping out beyond the curtains, I was blown away. This really makes me yearn for what might have been - and hope for what still could be. I hope this element is picked back up, but in the meantime, these photos and the discussion in the article is really worthy of being revisited, IMO: http://twinpeaksarchive.blogspot.ie/201 ... -fate.html
I have no idea where this will lead us, but I have a definite feeling it will be a place both wonderful and strange.
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