Let's talk about Judy

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LostInTheMovies
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Let's talk about Judy

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:23 am

I'm cross-posting this from an IMDb thread because I find the idea so intriguing but will preface this by saying I'm usually weary of imposing theories on Lynch, who obviously works intuitively and is often best appreciated on an uncanny/emotional level rather than figuring out "where he was going." That said, when this notion occurred to me I really, really liked it.

The original poster in the thread had suggested Judy was Bob's original victim (or even a manifestation of the "eternal victim" who once had a relationship with Bob and Mike).

*

What if Judy was, as the OP states, a victim of Bob - but what if she was to be the NEXT victim? And what if she was to be played by Sheryl Lee yet again, allowing her to complete the triptych of blonde/brunette/redhead that Lynch had promised her before the show was cancelled?

The idea occurred to me when I was thinking about Maddy - how apparently her name was explicitly selected to evoke Madeleine from Vertigo, the Hitchcock character possessed by a dead relative (and, as it turns out, one half of a dual identity). Of course, Laura's name itself evokes the 1944 film Laura, in which everyone rhapsodizes over a dead girl before it turns out she's not really dead.

But, I wondered, what happened to the other half of Madeleine's identity - the character Kim Novak plays in the second half of the film? Why didn't they ever name a character after her? Though Vertigo is one of my favorite films, I had trouble remembering the other character's name until, suddenly, like a monkey whispering in my ear, it occurred to me: "...Judy!"

Now, I'm not one to attribute master plans or over-analytical theories to Lynch; I believe his claims that he usually makes things up as he goes along (for example Bob and the Red Room), taking inspiration from his subconscious before weaving it into a larger thread. I still think the most likely explanation is that he and Engels liked the sound of this mysterious "Judy" and figured they'd expand on it at leisure in future films.

That said, there are also times when Lynch has elements planned beforehand (think, by most accounts, Leland being the murderer) and we know that Twin Peaks is rife with very self-conscious film references despite Lynch not proclaiming much interest in cinephilia - Waldo the bird (property of Dr. Lydecker) is a also a Laura reference, and Gordon Cole is from Sunset Boulevard.

Furthermore, we know how much Lynch loved working with Sheryl Lee and how he kept inventing reasons to bring her back. Thinking of Judy as Bob's next victim, someone who would be falling under the Black Lodge's spell in the intended follow-up film makes a lot of sense out of the numerous non sequiturs Judy references in the film. First of all, "We're not gonna talk about Judy" since the Black Lodge exists outside of time and space - so Bowie knows about her, but the people outside aren't ready or able to hear about it yet. Secondly, of course, the monkey whispering at the end which always seemed, while coolly enigmatic, a bit of a distraction from the tragedy and catharsis of the Laura ending, becomes a preface for the next film in which Judy will be the focus and signifies a kind of passage of victimhood from Laura to Judy (although I guess if we're being strictly chronological, the monkey should say, "Maddy!").

I feel slightly embarrassed typing all this, like one of those Shining acolytes claiming Kubrick was making a film about his role in faking the moon landing, but I'll admit I really like this idea. Not only does it tie into the idea of a larger Twin Peaks universe, but it means Lee would have continued to play a role in that universe, just as Novak played both Maddy and Judy as different aspects of the same character. I wonder if a Judy Fire Walk With Me would have been like Mulholland Drive in a way, watching a character go from light to dark.

While Lynch and Engels may not have (and probably didn't) intended any of this, I wonder if as they'd explored Judy in future films their thinking would have gone in this direction. I'm not one to hope for alternate realities especially when I like what we've got (Lost Highway, Mulholland Drive, and Inland Empire are great movies I wouldn't want to lose) but contemplating this one is poignant.

Then again, it's not too late now for a Lee-Lynch-Judy project. Lynch said in 2000 that Twin Peaks was dead as a doornail. But then, so was Laura Palmer...

Link to the original thread: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105665/boa ... /204062964
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Jasper
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby Jasper » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:19 am

I didn't read the imdb thread, but what I've heard was that Judy was probably going to be played by Joan Chen, and she might be something like Josie's evil(er) sister (or something). I think there was something about Judy being in Buenos Aires, which tied in with Bowie/Jeffries. At least some of this info came from Engels in response to a question, though I don't think it was a definitive confirmation. After all, who knows how much of this stuff had been worked out by Lynch or Lynch and Engels together. Anyway, I'm sure someone has the Engels quote, and perhaps it was even someone from this board doing the asking.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:43 am

Here's an article revised from Wrapped in Plastic: http://abovethestore.blogspot.com/2009/ ... 2050874494. Includes the Engels quotes and some speculation based on various drafts of the screenplay. Since concepts and directions were open and fluid in Fire Walk With Me, the big question remains "What WOULD Judy have become?" Which of course we'll never know - but I like to think that Lynch, still "owing" Lee one more character (and hair color) would have been led in that direction. No offense to Joan Chen, but it would certainly be a more compelling development.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby gavriloP » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:58 pm

Even though agent Jeffries ask us not to talk about Judy, he himself mentions her couple of times in the original FWWM shooting script. It might not be clear what he's talking about altogether but he's sure that Judy is positive about that. But more importantly, later he refers to that meeting above the convenient store, he says that it happened in Seattle at Judy's and that IS interesting.

On a technical level it seems clear to me that Judy was one of the future-concepts for the show/movies. You know, a device that they would flesh out later. Nevertheless I find it very interesting that the boy magician (only one in the show, so he has to be the one chanting between two worlds) has a monkey behind his mask, same as Laura in the end. This to me tells that the boy magician is the first victim and the one who got it all started. I don't know what to think about that monkey's whisper. Then again, all the interaction with the lodgefolk seem to originate to that place above the convenient store, Judy's place so perhaps the magician is from there too :)
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:35 am

Someone on another board mentioned that the boy might be Leland's spirit manifestation. When you describe him as the first victim, that underscores this point since we know Leland was abused by Bob as a boy.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby AgnililaOzwald » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:13 pm

there is also a similarity between Blue Velvet and Shadow of a Doubt...the cross-over between different worlds in DL's mind might even include Hitchcock's movies...which despite being less overt about it are equally esoteric and conspiratorial...
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby frompureair » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:38 pm

Also noticed on the missing pieces after it shows the 6 on the phone post it shows Jeffries getting off the elevator on the 7th floor which is in the FBI headquarters. I know Lynch is big into numbers but I always took this that he was sort of "Between two worlds" between the two floors for an undisclosed amount of time and not sure exactly how long he had been there because to him it seemed like the time of an elevator ride. Again I could theorize on the Bowie deleted scene all day but that's what's so great about TP its supposed to be interpreted differently for everyone and that's its charm it can be different to everyone. True Art at its finest.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby Jasper » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:55 pm

frompureair wrote:Also noticed on the missing pieces after it shows the 6 on the phone post it shows Jeffries getting off the elevator on the 7th floor which is in the FBI headquarters. I know Lynch is big into numbers but I always took this that he was sort of "Between two worlds" between the two floors for an undisclosed amount of time and not sure exactly how long he had been there because to him it seemed like the time of an elevator ride.


It's interesting that when Jeffries returns to Buenos Aires he is in a stairwell, between floors.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby BlackOwl » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:00 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:Someone on another board mentioned that the boy might be Leland's spirit manifestation. When you describe him as the first victim, that underscores this point since we know Leland was abused by Bob as a boy.

I always thought that boy was Leland's innocent soul, moments before BOB possesed him.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby Jasper » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:48 pm

gavriloP wrote:Even though agent Jeffries ask us not to talk about Judy, he himself mentions her couple of times in the original FWWM shooting script. It might not be clear what he's talking about altogether but he's sure that Judy is positive about that. But more importantly, later he refers to that meeting above the convenient store, he says that it happened in Seattle at Judy's and that IS interesting.


Jeffries says he "found something" in Seattle at Judy's, then "there they were". I think it's pretty clear that what Jeffries found was the ring, and he was transported to another place. The Missing Pieces footage supports this, with Jeffries at Cole's desk, mournfully moaning about the ring.

I think Jeffries found the ring and got lost, just like Agent Desmond. The ring continually recirculates, as when it hitches a ride out of the lodge on Annie's finger. "And everything will proceed cyclically". These things happen over and over and over. The MFAP circles his hand above the ring, producing a sound like that heard when a finger circles the rim of a wine glass.

I suppose the question is whether this circle/cycle can ever be broken, or if it's a fact of existence.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby Ygdrasel » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:02 pm

It's fairly common knowledge that Judy may have been planned as some relative to Josie or something. The idea of her as a 'redhead Laura' is more thematically interesting but honestly I think Sheryl Lee would wear out her welcome being killed by BOB a third time so I'd hope that wasn't the plan. Regardless, I once pondered some four or five theories about this but I have to agree on Judy being BOB's "next" victim.

The first mention of her is when Jeffries asks for a "Ms. Judy" at the hotel. His presence as a hotel guest suggests vacation time. A first name basis with Judy suggests that he knew her well. Looking her up and getting mail from her at said hotel suggests a hookup.

So Jeffries was on vacation at that hotel. He figured he'd look up an old friend. So he heads up to "Judy's" room where he "found something". That something was the ring which transports him to the Lodge same as Desmond after him and Cooper after that (granted, Cooper was transported in a different way).

Two years pass in Twin Peaks. Jeffries reappears. As far as he knows, maybe a few weeks has passed. He's just coming back from vacation. No big deal. As for "We're not gonna talk about Judy" - Well, FBI agents are still human. He probably figures they'll meet him with prying into his vacation time and his mystery girl. If Judy were someone of serious importance, I think we'd have gotten a bit more acknowledgement than Albert jerkishly parroting Jeffries' own words back at him, so the idea that she was of no special consequence (to the others, anyway) seems to fit which wipes 'past victim' or 'ongoing investigation' from the possibility list.

He then repeats himself "We're not gonna talk about Judy at all." because he has something more important to talk about: The Black Lodge. Which he does.

The next and last mention of Judy is near the film's end. The monkey whispers "Judy" just before the scene cuts to that iconic image of Laura's dead face.

Now, you can't talk about Judy without talking about that blasted creepy monkey so...Having seen the monkey whisper that name, we can go back to Jeffries for a new connection. During his remembrance, Pierre instructs BOB to 'fell a victim' (Laura) and then his face is briefly shown to be a monkey. Whereas my other theories on the Judy/monkey thing liken the monkey to just a variant on BOB's owls, I've been toying with a different idea: The monkey is a Lodge spirit itself. While The Jumping Man is the head honcho, MIKE and BOB the appointed overseers, the Tremonds messengers and the Electrician/Woodsmen labor workers...The Monkey is the Lodge Reaper. Its purpose is to select ideal victims from which the most potent garmonbozia may be harvested.

It first appears through Pierre after his instructions to take a new victim - a victim which is already planned to be Laura.
It appears again, immediately after Laura's death, designating a new victim: Judy.
Hence Judy is the would-be next victim. Plans can change, of course...


@Jasper: I imagine the cycle could be broken in theory. Good luck ever figuring out a way to destroy the Black Lodge though.
Twin Peaks has layers, man. Twin Peaks is an onion. 8)
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby OK,Bob » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:00 am

Jasper wrote:
frompureair wrote:Also noticed on the missing pieces after it shows the 6 on the phone post it shows Jeffries getting off the elevator on the 7th floor which is in the FBI headquarters. I know Lynch is big into numbers but I always took this that he was sort of "Between two worlds" between the two floors for an undisclosed amount of time and not sure exactly how long he had been there because to him it seemed like the time of an elevator ride.


It's interesting that when Jeffries returns to Buenos Aires he is in a stairwell, between floors.

Let's add to that: Consider that DL curiously inserted a closeup of Laura near the end of the Convenience Store scene.. a closeup of her in a trance (as we later see) on the landing in the stairwell at her home.

Another tidbit that ties in with the going up and down between the two worlds is Coop's "The Hindus say love is the ladder to heaven..."
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby OK,Bob » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:46 am

frompureair wrote:Also noticed on the missing pieces after it shows the 6 on the phone post it shows Jeffries getting off the elevator on the 7th floor which is in the FBI headquarters. I know Lynch is big into numbers but I always took this that he was sort of "Between two worlds" between the two floors for an undisclosed amount of time and not sure exactly how long he had been there because to him it seemed like the time of an elevator ride.

"If man is 5, then the devil is 6... God is 7" - The Pixies Monkey Gone to Heaven
[Hmmm... that song title evokes a monkey moving between two worlds]

The following, regarding 6 and 7 in the Bible, is from a Yahoo Answers post (bear in mind that DL was reportedly moved by a passage in the Bible during the making of Eraserhead, his "most spiritual film" and he had the Major reading from Revelations in FWWM. Though not a Christian man near as I can tell, he's known to borrow from its symbolism):

One, Two, Three, Four, Six, Seven, Eight, Ten, Twelve and Forty.

Here is a discussion of the meanings of the numbers six and seven, with Bible references, since you mention them. If you'd like information about more of the significant numbers in the scriptures, let me know. :)

Six. This number at times represents imperfection. The number of “the wild beast” is 666 and is called “a man’s number,” indicating that it has to do with imperfect, fallen man, and it seems to symbolize the imperfection of that which is represented by “the wild beast.” The number six being emphasized to a third degree (the six appearing in the position of units, tens, and hundreds) therefore highlights the imperfection and deficiency of that which the beast represents, or pictures.—Re 13:18.

Seven. Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness. At times it has reference to bringing a work toward completion. Or it can refer to the complete cycle of things as established or allowed by God. By completing his work toward the earth in six creative days and resting on the seventh day, Jehovah set the pattern for the whole Sabbath arrangement, from the seven-day week to the Jubilee year that followed the seven-times-seven–year cycle. (Ex 20:10; Le 25:2, 6, 8) The Festival of Unleavened Bread and the Festival of Booths were each seven days long. (Ex 34:18; Le 23:34) Seven appears often in connection with the Levitical rules for offerings (Le 4:6; 16:14, 19; Nu 28:11) and for cleansings.—Le 14:7, 8, 16, 27, 51; 2Ki 5:10.

The “seven congregations” of Revelation, with their characteristics, give a complete picture of all the congregations of God on earth.—Re 1:20–3:22.

The “seven heads” of the “wild beast” (Re 13:1) show the limit to which the beast would be allowed to develop. Although the “scarlet-colored wild beast” is called “an eighth” king, it springs from the seven and does not exist apart from the seven-headed wild beast (Re 17:3, 9-11), as is true also of the “image” of “the wild beast.” (Re 13:14) Similarly, the two-horned “wild beast” is actually coexistent with the original “wild beast” whose “mark” it tries to put on all persons.—Re 13:11, 16, 17.

Jehovah was long-suffering with Israel but warned them that if, despite his discipline, they ignored him, he would then chastise them “seven times,” thoroughly, for their sins.—Le 26:18, 21, 28.

In historical sections of the Scriptures, seven frequently occurs to denote completeness, or doing a work completely. The Israelites exercised full faith and obedience by marching for seven days around Jericho, encompassing it seven times on the seventh day, after which the city wall collapsed. (Jos 6:2-4, 15) Elijah showed full faith in the efficacy of his prayer to God by commanding his servant up on Mount Carmel to go looking at the sky seven times before a rain cloud appeared. (1Ki 18:42-44) Naaman the leper had to bathe seven times in the Jordan River. He, as a mighty Syrian general, had to display considerable humility to carry out this procedure recommended by the prophet Elisha, but for his obediently doing it, Jehovah cleansed him. (2Ki 5:10, 12) The purity, completeness, perfection, and fineness of Jehovah’s sayings are likened with poetic force and intensity to silver refined in a smelting furnace, clarified seven times. (Ps 12:6) Jehovah’s mercy is magnified by the statement: “The righteous one may fall even seven times, and he will certainly get up.” (Pr 24:16) His deserving all praise is declared by the psalmist: “Seven times in the day I have praised you.”—Ps 119:164.

The book of Revelation abounds with symbolic use of the number seven in connection with the things of God and his congregation, and also the things of God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil, in his all-out fight to oppose God and his people.—Re 1:4, 12, 16; 5:1, 6; 8:2; 10:3; 12:3; 13:1; 15:1, 7; 17:3, 10; and other texts.

Multiples of seven are used in a similar sense of completeness. Seventy (ten times seven) is employed prophetically in the “seventy weeks” of Daniel’s prophecy dealing with Messiah’s coming. (Da 9:24-27; see SEVENTY WEEKS.) Jerusalem and Judah lay desolate 70 years, because of disobedience to God, “until the land had paid off [completely] its sabbaths.”—2Ch 36:21; Jer 25:11; 29:10; Da 9:2; Zec 1:12; 7:5.

Seventy-seven, a repetition of seven in a number, was equivalent to saying “indefinitely” or “without limit.” Jesus counsels Christians to forgive their brothers to that extent. (Mt 18:21, 22) Since God had ruled that anyone killing Cain, the murderer, must “suffer vengeance seven times,” Lamech, who apparently killed a man in self-defense, said: “If seven times Cain is to be avenged, then Lamech seventy times and seven.”—Ge 4:15, 23, 24.
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby pythonesque » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:11 am

Ygdrasel wrote:If Judy were someone of serious importance, I think we'd have gotten a bit more acknowledgement than Albert jerkishly parroting Jeffries' own words back at him, so the idea that she was of no special consequence (to the others, anyway) seems to fit which wipes 'past victim' or 'ongoing investigation' from the possibility list.


What gave me the impression that Judy might have more significance than that was Cooper's reaction (in the theatrical take) when Jeffries mentions Judy. Before Jeffries even finishes the sentence about "We're not going to talk about Judy at all, we're going to keep her out of it," Cooper turns to Cole in alarm and says "Gordon..." Then Cole says, "I know, Coop..." I've always taken this to suggest that Judy was in the dream that Cooper told Cole about off-screen.


Ygdrasel wrote:Now, you can't talk about Judy without talking about that blasted creepy monkey so...Having seen the monkey whisper that name, we can go back to Jeffries for a new connection. During his remembrance, Pierre instructs BOB to 'fell a victim' (Laura) and then his face is briefly shown to be a monkey. Whereas my other theories on the Judy/monkey thing liken the monkey to just a variant on BOB's owls, I've been toying with a different idea: The monkey is a Lodge spirit itself. While The Jumping Man is the head honcho, MIKE and BOB the appointed overseers, the Tremonds messengers and the Electrician/Woodsmen labor workers...The Monkey is the Lodge Reaper. Its purpose is to select ideal victims from which the most potent garmonbozia may be harvested.

It first appears through Pierre after his instructions to take a new victim - a victim which is already planned to be Laura.
It appears again, immediately after Laura's death, designating a new victim: Judy.
Hence Judy is the would-be next victim. Plans can change, of course...


Wow, I don't think I've come across a theory that better explains why the monkey says 'Judy'! I like it.
Kmkmiller
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Re: Let's talk about Judy

Postby Kmkmiller » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:13 am

weary of imposing theories on Lynch,


i have a lot of input on the numerology and Judy. but for now i just want to say it still bugs me this attitude. it's like you have to play dumb. and i don't like to play dumb in some hope that i won't offend someone... no. it's not an imposition on Lynch to think about his work.... AGHAST!!!! intellectually. symbolically. semiotically... interpretively.... it ruins nothing. it makes it more fun!

sheese. put your disclaimers away, kids!!!

say it loud!!!!

say it proud!!!!!!!!!!

I HAVE A THEORY ABOUT THAT LYNCH MOVIE!!!!!!!!!

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