How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

General discussion on Twin Peaks not related to the series, film, books, music, photos, or collectors merchandise.

Moderators: Brad D, Annie, Jonah, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne

User avatar
MoondogJR
RR Diner Member
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:13 am
Location: Belgium

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by MoondogJR »

I was about 7 or 8 years old when I first saw fragments of Twin Peaks. My mother and older brother where watching it and I remember beeing very fascinated about it. However, I was too young to fully comprehend.

A couple of years later (I guess I was 13 or so) they rebroadcasted the series in Belgium. The effect of the fragments I saw when I was 8 never wore off. I remembered the eerie music, the quircky characters… I loved it from minute one. I remember my brother and I watched that entire rebroadcast every week, late at night. That was 17 years ago and to this day, we both are still massive TP-fans and often use quotes out of the blue.

Years past by and Twin Peaks was always in the back of my mind. I couldn’t forget it, it felt like the world of Twin Peaks was the life I was supposed to lead. I was very angry at myself that I never recorded the rebroadcasted episodes. I wanted to rewatch the series, but Internet was not what it is now, I couldn’t find the VHS-release in stores nor the internet and the DVD’s weren’t out yet. It goes without saying that I was frustrated for a very very long time :)

Until the day I was wondering at a second hand market. I passed a quy who was selling all his old VHS-tapes and I saw a copy of one VHS-casette of TP. I was overwhelmed. The guy told me he had all of them, that I should search between his hundreds (thousands?) of other tapes and wished me the best of luck. I searched the entire afternoon and found them all. I hugged the guy, paid him whatever he asked for it (I didn’t care) and rushed home.

At home, in my excitement, I forgot that I didn’t have a VHS-player. Off course I went to a pawnshop to buy one instantly! That night, I didn’t sleep. The day after, I didn’t go to classes. It was my very first Twin Peaks marathon and I held many more since.

This is a great thread and I wanted to share this. I know this was al little off topic (sory for that :oops:) but later I will react to the different turning points you summed up from the series!
"Your log and I are on the same page."
User avatar
LostInTheMovies
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

MoondogJR wrote:I passed a quy who was selling all his old VHS-tapes and I saw a copy of one VHS-casette of TP. I was overwhelmed. The guy told me he had all of them, that I should search between his hundreds (thousands?) of other tapes and wished me the best of luck. I searched the entire afternoon and found them all. I hugged the guy, paid him whatever he asked for it (I didn’t care) and rushed home.
Great story! I would imagine that this viewing was better than any other you had or will have, HD, special features, whatever. There's something to be said for struggling long and hard to see what you want to see. Makes you savor the experience even more, like a "holy grail" attained.
User avatar
LostInTheMovies
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

MoondogJR wrote:I passed a quy who was selling all his old VHS-tapes and I saw a copy of one VHS-casette of TP. I was overwhelmed. The guy told me he had all of them, that I should search between his hundreds (thousands?) of other tapes and wished me the best of luck. I searched the entire afternoon and found them all. I hugged the guy, paid him whatever he asked for it (I didn’t care) and rushed home.
Great story! I would imagine that this viewing was better than any other you had or will have, HD, special features, whatever. There's something to be said for struggling long and hard to see what you want to see. Makes you savor the experience even more, like a "holy grail" attained.
User avatar
Audrey Horne
Lodge Member
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The Great Northern

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by Audrey Horne »

Moondog, that is an awesome story!

I had all the episodes on VHS except for the first half of 9 (which the VCR recorded another station!) and commercials and interviews between. I pulled some stuff for dugpa for the bluray and in the search and hunt realized I only had about half of them still. A bunch of commercials lost forever... Ugh!
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
User avatar
MoondogJR
RR Diner Member
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:13 am
Location: Belgium

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by MoondogJR »

Audrey Horne wrote:Moondog, that is an awesome story!

I had all the episodes on VHS except for the first half of 9 (which the VCR recorded another station!) and commercials and interviews between. I pulled some stuff for dugpa for the bluray and in the search and hunt realized I only had about half of them still. A bunch of commercials lost forever... Ugh!
Yikes :(
I keep my VHS-tapes safe and I never play them because I'm afraid they'd break or something... Although I think the transfer to DVD is done very well, I still like my VHS-tapes most of all! :)
"Your log and I are on the same page."
User avatar
BOB1
RR Diner Member
Posts: 372
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Poland

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by BOB1 »

Very cool story indeed!
There's something to be said for struggling long and hard to see what you want to see.
vs.
Internet was not what it is now
?

Obvious conclusion: internet sucks! :)
Bobi 1 Kenobi

B. Beware
O. Of
B. BOB
User avatar
Ross
Global Moderator
Posts: 2199
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by Ross »

I finally had some time to sit down and respond to this.

I was a Twin Peaks fan(atic) from day one, and 24 years later I’m still obsessed with it, so this should be fun. I will mention before I get into this though that I don’t have many of the same criticisms that others have about the show. I loved the whole run- then and now. Sure there are things that I’d change, but nothing I hate. So I’m guessing I might offer a different perspective on some things.

1. The pilot
I watched a lot of tv as a kid, and I guess I still do. But nothing before or since has sparked my interest in the way that Twin Peaks did. Back then, Lynch, Frost, and others were pushing the show as “TV for people who don’t watch TV”. I think the idea behind this was just that it was so different than anything else on TV. Of course, with all the acclaim certain shows get these days, I don’t think they would sell it that way today. In fact, (some) TV is much more acclaimed than film now.

I was a senior in high-school that first season, so the same age as Laura and the other younger cast. And I think being that age and watching it for the first time added a lot to the experience. I’m sure my love for the show has lasted so long in part because of when I first saw it.

Anyway, before the pilot aired I had heard some buzzings about the show that got me interested. Mostly that this was unlike anything ever seen on TV. And they started promoting the “Who killed Laura Palmer” angle before it hit the air as well. I had no idea who Lynch was at the time. I had heard of Blue Velvet, but had never seen it. So the Lynch angle wasn’t a draw for me then. But the strong buzz, and the murder mystery angle, got me to tune in. I still vividly remember watching the pilot. My dad was watching something else on the main TV, so I ended up watching alone in our basement. My mom watched on a portable black & white TV in the kitchen. From the start of the opening credits, I was mesmerized. The visuals with Badalamenti’s music had me hooked. I kept thinking, what is this great music? To this day I’ve never seen a more perfect pilot episode. Everything in it set up the show perfectly. Most TV series have OK pilots and then they end up finding themselves and getting better. TP was unique in that everything clicked in that first two hours. I was instantly hooked. I remember my mom was really affected by the scene of Sarah on the phone. Again, so unlike anything seen on TV before. After that, I taped every episode, and those tapes got watched countless times over the years. I was thankfully able to tape the pilot episode when they repeated it in the summer.

I got both of my brothers to start watching it after that. But as far as I remember, there wasn’t much talk from other kids at school about the show, in fact that first year the only other people I knew that were watching it were my two brothers and my mom. But I remember the media hype starting. There was an article in the USA Today newspaper about the show’s popularity and the “viewing parties” that were going on. I was surprised, and excited, that it was getting so much acclaim and attention. I think people tend to think that ratings were huge the first season, but they weren’t. The pilot’s ratings were, but the remainder of the season did just so so. Many thought it was too weird, or off-putting. But the media hype and “cool factor” kept it in the mainstream. But there was a lot of talk that it may not get renewed for a second season. It was far from a sure bet.

2. The appearance of Bob in episode 1
Honestly, I don’t remember exactly what I thought at that point, but I loved the bizarre, mysterious, and even horror under-pinnings. As to who that was, I don’t think I had any guess.

3. The Red Room dream in episode 2
I remember this pretty vividly as well. I remember turning off the TV after the episode ended, and just thinking, Wow! Definitely the oddest, weirdest thing I had ever seen. But so fascinating. I think when some people go back and revisit the show they are surprised at how early that came in the run of the show. And it definitely got people talking. They might have lost some viewers, but gained more. Even if a lot of people were saying WTF, it sure had them talking. Personally, I loved the idea that it was some kind of code. And the sequence with Bob/Mike was scary, and since I have always been a horror fan, I loved those aspects of the show. It was also really cool seeing Laura.

4a. The season finale - the fact that Laura's killer was not revealed
4b. The season finale - Cooper being shot

I wasn’t mad at all about the killer not being revealed. But I WAS surprised. I honestly thought he would be. Not sure exactly where that expectation came from, but it was there. And a lot of people were pissed. It was really the first turning point against the show. There was a bit on the finale on some entertainment show (most likely ET?) where they were showing people’s negative reactions to the ending. I loved all the cliffhangers, and was pretty convinced that at least some of the characters would die.

I can’t remember the exact date, but I know the cassette(!) single of the Twin Peaks Theme and Julee Cruise’s Falling came out sometime before summer (and before the full soundtrack). People on here know how much I love the music of TP, and know my blog. So this first release was very special and I used to listen to the tape on a continuous loop.

That summer I prepared to leave for college in the fall. I hoped my brother would be able to tape all the episodes for me while I was away. I was relieved that the series was renewed, but worried about its move to the Saturday “death slot”. There was a lot of talk about that in the media over the summer. With ABC touting it as a new “must see” night. I watched the reruns of the first season that summer (even though I had them taped). I bought the Twin Peaks soundtrack on CD (the first CD I ever bought), and bought the Diary.

5. The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer - did you read it before watching season 2? Did it point you in a certain direction?
Even though the first season had ended by pissing off viewers, and it was moving to Saturdays, there was still a good buzz going into the second season, Lynch was on Time, the soundtrack was a hit, etc. I know I read the diary in those first few weeks away at school, and really wondered how Bob was going to fit into the show. I wondered how the killer could just be some guy that wasn’t one of the main characters. USA Today had a full page article on the second season premiere, and if I remember correctly, pretty much said Laura was killed by the “dream demon” Bob of the diary. And at that point I had no inkling that Bob would actually be “possessing” one of our main characters. Maybe others had that figured out, but I don’t think I had.
Back to the diary, I remember really liking it, but for as many times as I’ve rewatched the series and FWWM over the years, I never went back and read the diary. Not entirely sure why. I think for me TP was so much about the visual and aural aspects, that the printed story doesn’t do as much for me.

6a. The season 2 premiere - the very long opening with the waiter
I remember the scene doing exactly what it was meant to do- make you feel antsy and anxious. It certainly didn’t make me mad or anything, and I appreciate it even more over the years. However, this is where the backlash really kicked into high gear. There was a review at the time that stated that during these scenes with the waiter “you could just hear the collective TVs of America turning the channel”.
6b. The season 2 premiere - the appearance of the giant (which certainly takes the vaguely supernatural air of the show in a new direction)
I loved the supernatural slant, in fact its definitely part of the reason I prefer eps 9-16 even more than season 1. But it certainly added to others tuning out. I think it may have also added to the feeling that many people had that the show was going nowhere, and that Lynch & Frost were just making it all up and throwing in things that were just weird for weirdness sake. Another really strange thing was that during the original broadcast (at least in Chicago) of the Giant’s “clues”, all of his dialogue was dropped out. I think it was some sort of glitch- but my brother was convinced Lynch did it on purpose to fuck with people. I didn’t hear the scene properly until perhaps the Bravo reruns?
6c. The season 2 premiere - the violent flashback to Laura's murder, with Bob making his first sustained appearance
God I loved this scene. Still the scariest scene in TP. I remember the weird theories. There was the guy who was convinced Bob was giving Laura CPR!!! And others that thought Laura was turning into a vampire!!! (Her back teeth during her scream look a little like fangs – especially in standard def).

People often complain that TP suffered from Lynch’s absence from the series, but ironically, the turning point against the show really started with this LYNCH directed episode. (And of course Lynch was away for a lot of season one).
Personally, I love the episode, and think the 2nd season premiere is certainly one of the most important episodes of the series. It sort of “resets” everything in so many interesting ways.

One more point to make is that I remember people complaining about the new still-frame “Next On” segments for season two. Saying that were another case of the show being enigmatic while showing nothing.

7. Bob crawling over the couch in episode 9
Amazing.

8a. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - the fact that it was Leland
8b. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - the fact that it was also Bob
8c. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - Maddy's murder

The highlight of the series for me. Still amazed that Maddy’s murder made it through the censors. A lot of people had jumped ship already by this time. The biggest argument people have today about the show is that it solved the Laura mystery too soon. Some of this has to do with the fact that Lynch didn’t want to. But the biggest complaint at the time was that it WASN’T giving people that answer. And a lot of people had given up on it. So prolonging it would never have helped the show back then. To me, it feels like a natural progression. And it gives us a sensational payoff. One of the most amazing things about TP is that after all the buildup, one might be afraid that any resolution would end up being a letdown, when in fact they managed to elevate the show to new heights.

As for the Leland thing, I honestly can’t remember if I was surprised or not. I don’t think that I was really ever trying to guess the killer back then, just going along for the ride. And in the end Leland made the most sense. And the duality with Bob was ingenious.

9. The way the discovery & capture of Leland/Bob is handled in episode 16
For years this was my favorite episode. I still like it quite a lot, but I’d put the Lynch episodes ahead of it. I understand the complaints that it wraps up things too quick though.

10. Leland's wake in episode 17, with the comic subplots emerging and the writers trying to move past the mystery
I think the thing that disappointed me the most was the fast forward of the three days. I understand it though- they wanted to move past it. But there are things I would have loved to see. How did Sarah react? What exactly did Ronette see? Just Bob as in her vision? Or Leland in real life & Bob in her vision? Or Bob AND Leland?? And most of all, I did feel a bit cheated that we didn’t get to see Donna react to the news. After all, pretty much every scene with her in the series up until then was her trying to figure out who killed Laura and then to find out it was Laura’s own dad, whom she had just had that harrowing & bizarre interaction with…

But I actually still love the series post-Laura. Actually, my complaint with the second half of the series has always been about what we DIDN’T see rather that what was there, most of which I still like quite a bit. Lynch complains that the Laura story was forced out. But just because they solved the murder didn’t mean it had to end. They could have kept Sarah in the story. Had Donna visit Ronette. Etc. Better leading to the Black Loge story.

11. The realization that the Cooper-Audrey storyline was not going to play out
Of all the questions and complaints about the show, this is the one I least identify with. Don’t get me wrong- I love Audrey, and there was crazy good chemistry between them. But I never ONCE thought they would actually go through with a romance where Cooper reciprocated and actually had sex with a high school student. It just never entered my mind as something they would do, or something that I wanted to happen. So I was pretty surprised to learn years later that that was actually what was planned! And that so many fans actually wanted that to happen.

For me, I just don’t believe Cooper would betray his inner code of conduct like that. Almost any other character I would believe. But not Cooper. I would have been all for them continuing the flirtation as it was, but that wasn’t the plan, and that’s not what Kyle objected to (or claimed to object to depending on whose side of the story you believe). I think its important to remember that.

I will say though, that one of the bigger mistakes the show made was dropping their interaction once they decided a romance wouldn’t happen. I would have liked their friendship & mentoring to continue, and maybe see Audrey’s reaction to Annie. But their reduced interaction didn’t seem unnatural at the time, as Cooper’s investigation was over and Audrey was dealing with her dad.

12. The stretch of episodes 17-23 (you know the ones)
See my answer for number 10. But I still do like quite a lot of what IS actually in these episodes. One point to make here is that since there was no internet back then, I lived with only my own ideas and opinions for most of the years. Even when Wrapped In Plastic came along, their (mostly positive) opinions on these episodes were close to mine. It wasn’t until much much later that I found out how much disdain there was for these. I was actually quite surprised to learn so. I never even hated the Evelyn story. Granted, its slight, but its still done with style and some really great music.
I do remember my one brother asking where the series was going during these episodes though, and he didn’t return to watch it when it later returned from hiatus.
In some bizarre way, the more unfocused feel of these episodes makes sense, as in life after getting the answer to something you were so focused on.
Highlights for me include:
-Ben & his home movies
-The tape “Hobgoblins” message from Earle (one of the best written & delivered speeches in the whole run)
-Michael Parks
-The whole ending of ep 20: Dead Dog Farm, Leo, the vagrant’s body.
-Earle’s intro
I was really bummed when I read in the USA Today that the series was going on hiatus.

13. Where you felt the show picking up again
For me the show always fell distinctly into four parts: Season 1, Episodes 8-16, Episodes 17-23, and Episodes 24-29. I really love the last six episodes, and enjoy them just about as much as any other span of episodes. I feel like most of the characters are at their most appealing here. I think Welsh is fantastic, and I think everything ramps up towards the conclusion. And then there’s Annie. I fell in love with that character just as quickly as Cooper did. To me, she was exactly the kind of person I would see him with. Kind, gentle, guarded and yet open, wounded and yet happy. Everything worked for me, and every scene they are in together is a series highlight for me.

14. The finale
I was so sad that TP was coming to an end. And going out with no fanfare (and another hiatus!) I still remember seeing the brief commercial for the finale (which isn’t on the blu ray).

I was impressed with it at the time, and my love for it only grew more over time. The first thing I noticed about it was the soundtrack. “Dark Mood Woods” was amazing and instantly created a mood unique to this episode. I loved that Cooper finally entered his dream world. I loved seeing Sarah, Ronette, Laura. Maddy & Leland again. I was pretty shocked by the ending. And was pretty upset that that might be the end.

As for the other stories, Norma/Big Ed & Nadine came full circle. I never thought Ben was dead. But I did think Audrey, Andrew & Pete were did. I was very surprised about Audrey until I heard that she would have survived.

I remember watching the pilot again soon after and realizing the Bobby/Shelly/Heidi bit was repeated and thinking how cool that was.

At the time there was talk that another network, or even first run syndication might continue the series. But I don’t know if those avenues were even pursued. The backlash was so bad at the time that I don’t think anyone wanted to touch it. Fox had said they would have picked it up if it was cancelled after season one, but I guess they had no interest by this time. I remember the letters to TV Guide about the finale were NOT kind.

Of course Lynch then decided to do a movie…

15. Fire Walk With Me
Since my love for TP never waivered, I was excited beyond belief to see FWWM. I was initially disappointed to hear it was a prequel. But there was the promise of more to come, and I hoped there were going to be hints of that in the film. There was so little written about it beforehand, with no internet. It wasn’t until close to it coming out that I learned LFB had been replaced. That really bummed me out, and I had no idea she Kyle, & Fenn were all jumping on the anti-Peaks bandwagon.

I saw it opening night while away at school (taking a summer class). It was actually pretty packed being a college town. The next weekend I saw it with my brother while back hone. I think there were two other people in the whole theater(!) I did manage to see it a third time during its short run.

I actually loved the film from the beginning, and never really understood the criticism. In fact, the absolute hated from critics was really disheartening at the time. I remember when I found the Video Watchdog issue on the film, and finally saw there was SOMEONE else who loved it!

I was surprised to see so many characters left out- mostly because I had heard they WERE in the movie. I had read interviews/articles with Ontkean, Chen & others saying they had filmed scenes. So I kept waiting for them to appear. It wasn’t until later that I learned they had all been cut.

Other than that disappointment, my only complaints with FWWM were always the cosmetic things. WHY did they use a different house? Why didn’t they throw a wig on Norma? Etc. Etc. I wanted it to visually match the series. But the movie itself I’ve always loved.

16. Post-FWWM
I discovered Wrapped In Plastic, and was a loyal fan until it ended. My interest in TP never really went away, and I watched my taped-off the air VHS tapes for years. I was also hopeful for many years that TP might return, but gave up on that after a while. It wasn’t until I became a member of Dugpa many years ago that I realized how many fans dislike so much of the series. I was surprised, and I actually stepped away from it for a while. But the soundtrack releases pulled me back in. First the 2nd season soundtrack, and then the Archive releases. For the better part of a year and a half I poured over the series studying all of the different music tracks and combinations. This was not only a dream come true for me, but it also really renewed my love of the series. I spent countless hours on my site/covers/mixes.

17. The Missing Pieces
Wow. I had given up on ever seeing these. 22 years is a long time to wait. When the preview for the "Missing Pieces" dropped, it was chill-inducing and surreal. Images that only existed in my head were finally being seen.

And while watching the scenes themselves didn't bring me that same level of surreal that the preview did (the preview had already done that), it was still an experience that can hardly be described, and can't really compare to anything. For me, finally seeing all of these scenes brought a huge sense of satisfaction, when it could have easily been one of disappointment.

The film and the Missing Pieces complement each other so well. So I don't mind having them as two separate pieces of the whole. I only wish we could have seen these from the beginning.

18. Twin Peaks 2016
I can’t really put into words how excited I am about this. Pretty much everything Frost said in his initial interviews were things I had been hoping for for years. I had always had this small hope that something might happen in that “25 years later” time period. But I was really shocked by the news. Aside from the best part- Frost & Lynch writing all, and Lynch directing all, I’m hopeful for:
New music from Badalamenti
Kyle M
Michael Ontkean
Heather Graham

2016 can’t come soon enough. And the whole experience will be completely different than it was in the early 90s.
"I can see half my life's history in your face... And I'm not sure that I want to."
http://twinpeakssoundtrackdesign.blogspot.com/
User avatar
LostInTheMovies
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Ross wrote:I finally had some time to sit down and respond to this.
Love that people keep responding. This was particularly a blast to read - I was glued to the screen. A few random thoughts in response...
But the media hype and “cool factor” kept it in the mainstream.
1. This is something I've been noticing in my own research. That probably the biggest factor in the show's success early on was just how heavily the press went for it (at a time when the press was not nearly as diffuse as it is now and thus carried much more weight). It seems like the writing on the wall was really the fact that the critics turned on it early on season 2, or many of them anyway. It's still amazing to me how much sheer vitriol the media had towards Twin Peaks in '91-'92. Treating it like a punchline - there's a lot of anger there. Like they felt hoodwinked or something, or were withdrawing from an addictive drug.
Another really strange thing was that during the original broadcast (at least in Chicago) of the Giant’s “clues”, all of his dialogue was dropped out. I think it was some sort of glitch- but my brother was convinced Lynch did it on purpose to fuck with people.
2. Haha, I just read about this on alt.tv.twin-peaks as well. The closest thing I can think for myself is watching Between Two World and trying to wrack my brain to figure out what Laura's cryptic statements meant. Turns out it was basically just a teaser for 2016. Sometimes we can all overthink Lynch. ;)
People often complain that TP suffered from Lynch’s absence from the series, but ironically, the turning point against the show really started with this LYNCH directed episode. (And of course Lynch was away for a lot of season one).
3. Great point. There seems to be a lot of revisionism going on whenever there's a retrospective. Along with what I mentioned in point #1 above, it wasn't just Twin Peaks the media turned on, it was also (maybe especially) David Lynch. The backlash was EXTREMELY personal. Later, especially post-Mulholland Dr., you get all these articles making it sound like critics turned on the show because Lynch was less involved. BS. They didn't get it then which makes me extra-curious to see if a similar pattern follows in 2016.
So prolonging it would never have helped the show back then. To me, it feels like a natural progression. And it gives us a sensational payoff. One of the most amazing things about TP is that after all the buildup, one might be afraid that any resolution would end up being a letdown, when in fact they managed to elevate the show to new heights.
4. Totally agreed. Lately I've come to the conclusion that the killer's reveal wasn't just a necessary evil, but a necessity period. The show could've ended there or continued in a new direction but it was time to unveil the mystery. The more times I watch ep. 14, 29, and FWWM (to my mind, the best parts of the saga) the more baffled I am by Lynch's and Frost's continued suggestion that perhaps the mystery NEVER should have been solved. What a different experience that would have been and as you say, it wouldn't have reached the same heights, even if the quality had been more consistent.
I think the thing that disappointed me the most was the fast forward of the three days. I understand it though- they wanted to move past it. But there are things I would have loved to see. How did Sarah react? What exactly did Ronette see? Just Bob as in her vision? Or Leland in real life & Bob in her vision? Or Bob AND Leland?? And most of all, I did feel a bit cheated that we didn’t get to see Donna react to the news. After all, pretty much every scene with her in the series up until then was her trying to figure out who killed Laura and then to find out it was Laura’s own dad, whom she had just had that harrowing & bizarre interaction with…
5. Such an excellent observation (not trying to be overly sycophantic here, I'm just really on the same page). It seems like the writers were really nervous about alienating the audience with too much darkness and morbidity. Considering this episode was shot a few weeks after the season 2 premiere, I wonder if there were any last-minute changes made in response to the public/press backlash? Maybe there was a desire to return to the festive air of season 1 when everyone was smitten with the quirky, offbeat air of the town. But this forgets that the most popular episode was the pilot, which is relentlessly grim till Coop shows up and has a more realistic texture than the other stuff. It does feel so strangely out of character for the series to glide over characters' reactions to news that is even more shocking than Laura's death. If I had to identify the series' biggest dramatic blunder, this would probably be it.
But I actually still love the series post-Laura. Actually, my complaint with the second half of the series has always been about what we DIDN’T see rather that what was there, most of which I still like quite a bit. Lynch complains that the Laura story was forced out. But just because they solved the murder didn’t mean it had to end. They could have kept Sarah in the story. Had Donna visit Ronette. Etc. Better leading to the Black Loge story.
6. I'm admittedly not so fond of mid-season 2, but you're right, it's what we DON'T see, more than what we do, that really burns. "just because they solved the murder didn’t mean it had to end" - exactly. As I put it recently when discussing this run of episodes, "ending Laura's story - not revealing her killer - was Twin Peaks' true folly." This also makes me very curious to see how they pick up this thread in 2016, because I really believe they will. I don't think Lynch, given FWWM, Between Two Worlds, even that video he created on his website about 10 years ago (which someone recently re-posted here), would want to return to Twin Peaks if he didn't have a place for Laura in it.
For me, I just don’t believe Cooper would betray his inner code of conduct like that. Almost any other character I would believe. But not Cooper. I would have been all for them continuing the flirtation as it was, but that wasn’t the plan, and that’s not what Kyle objected to (or claimed to object to depending on whose side of the story you believe). I think its important to remember that.
7. Funny, I just brought this up on another thread. Could it have been the writers, more than MacLachlan, who goofed up here? Were they resentful/bitter that their vision of the story ended, so they nixed any other possibilities? While MacLachlan may have had ulterior motives I agree that consummation was the wrong route but as you put it "their friendship & mentoring" had a lot more potential. Ah well...
I never even hated the Evelyn story. Granted, its slight, but its still done with style and some really great music.
8. My frustration with this segue may be a bit different than other fans'. While I agree there are a lot of issues with it, the biggest issue to me is not with the location or the characters themselves per se - it's that the story is so poorly developed. If you're doing this type of noir, you have the femme fatale tempt the foolish guy into commiting murder HIMSELF. And though I don't think it would necessarily have made sense for James to go through with it, to have him tempted in this direction would have worked on a statement of his conflicted feeling about Laura: that he could have maybe saved her (and Maddy), but didn't act quickly enough. What a great follow-through, and a way to keep the implications of the Laura story going! Instead, they essentially have James sit there as a passive witness to the Marsh shenanigans, receiving copious amounts of exposition and then being set up without actually being involved in the drama itself in any way. It's just terrible storytelling and evidence to my mind that for all his talent with dialogue and characterization (which were, don't get me wrong, tremendous) Harley Peyton really should not have been in charge of developing plotlines.
In some bizarre way, the more unfocused feel of these episodes makes sense, as in life after getting the answer to something you were so focused on.
9. An intriguing point. I really resented these episodes on the first go-through (and skipped them on the second) but today I find them endlessly fascinating. Even if they don't work for me as part of the narrative they make a weird sort of psychological sense and almost feel perversely necessary as a build-up for the momentous comeback. Though that may also just be a case of Stockholm Syndrome on my part. ;)
-Ben & his home movies
10. Agreed. Very nice moment. I also find it interesting that they play over the end credits - the only time we DON'T see Laura's portrait after her mystery ends. I wonder if this was "allowed" because a) Duwayne Dunham was closer to Lynch than most directors, b) he actually shows Laura's portrait onscreen during the episode when Ben talks to Hank; the last time we will see her onscreen aside from end credits (until the finale). Just speculation, but intriguing.
-The tape “Hobgoblins” message from Earle (one of the best written & delivered speeches in the whole run)
11. This, the visit to Donna's house, the black teeth in #28, and Lynch's direction of him entering Glastonberry Grove are my favorite Windom Earle moments.
-Michael Parks
12. Though I never find the OEJ story as absorbing as I wish, I quite like this performance. So juicy.
And then there’s Annie. I fell in love with that character just as quickly as Cooper did. To me, she was exactly the kind of person I would see him with. Kind, gentle, guarded and yet open, wounded and yet happy. Everything worked for me, and every scene they are in together is a series highlight for me.
13. I would guess as much from your avatar! While a Coop/Audrey climax feels like a lost opportunity, I have a soft spot for Annie. Even the awkwardness of their interactions has a certain charm to it for me. I like their conversations in the diner and the bar and I feel like at this point in the show you can really feel Frost's presence again, tying together thematic threads and giving the characters a sense of growth, risk, and tension. I even like that ridiculous penguin joke.
In fact, the absolute hated from critics was really disheartening at the time. I remember when I found the Video Watchdog issue on the film, and finally saw there was SOMEONE else who loved it!
14. I wonder if one major critic had stood up to the mob and gone to bat for the film, the way, say, Pauline Kael did with Bonnie & Clyde after it got savaged in the summer of '67...could there have been some kind of turnaround in its reputation? I'll never get over the shock I felt in 2008 when I watched the film for the first time and visited Metacritic the next day, only to discover the film had a 28/100 rating! My jaw hit the floor. I had issues with the film on first viewing, but also felt it was one of the most powerful movies I'd ever seen. I get maybe disliking the film, or feeling uncomfortable - but they were so dismissive. I couldn't believe they were writing about the same film I had just seen. Still can't!

15. Love that you added additional categories. The journey continues...
User avatar
Ross
Global Moderator
Posts: 2199
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by Ross »

LostInTheMovies wrote: Love that people keep responding. This was particularly a blast to read - I was glued to the screen. A few random thoughts in response...
Thanks! I always feel like my opinions on TP are kind of different than the majority. And thanks for the responses- Loved reading them!
5. Such an excellent observation (not trying to be overly sycophantic here, I'm just really on the same page). It seems like the writers were really nervous about alienating the audience with too much darkness and morbidity. Considering this episode was shot a few weeks after the season 2 premiere, I wonder if there were any last-minute changes made in response to the public/press backlash? Maybe there was a desire to return to the festive air of season 1 when everyone was smitten with the quirky, offbeat air of the town. But this forgets that the most popular episode was the pilot, which is relentlessly grim till Coop shows up and has a more realistic texture than the other stuff. It does feel so strangely out of character for the series to glide over characters' reactions to news that is even more shocking than Laura's death. If I had to identify the series' biggest dramatic blunder, this would probably be it.
That's really interesting. My assumption was always that they wanted to move past it once solved, and didn't want to have to show everyone's reaction. I had never really thought about the characters finding out potentially being too dark or morbid. There may be something to that, and I've never heard any discussion on those decisions. We really should have seen Donna's reaction, at least.
11. This, the visit to Donna's house, the black teeth in #28, and Lynch's direction of him entering Glastonberry Grove are my favorite Windom Earle moments.
The Hobgoblins speech is so amazingly well written- and so well performed by Welsh, who hadn't even appeared onscreen yet!
13. I would guess as much from your avatar! While a Coop/Audrey climax feels like a lost opportunity, I have a soft spot for Annie. Even the awkwardness of their interactions has a certain charm to it for me. I like their conversations in the diner and the bar and I feel like at this point in the show you can really feel Frost's presence again, tying together thematic threads and giving the characters a sense of growth, risk, and tension. I even like that ridiculous penguin joke.
This is exactly how I see it as well. I love that Cooper was able to grow and change. And the charm is in their awkwardness. They just fit together so well for me. Plus the line I quote in my signature sums up their coupling perfectly. Beautiful yet tragic at the same time.
"I can see half my life's history in your face... And I'm not sure that I want to."
http://twinpeakssoundtrackdesign.blogspot.com/
User avatar
LostInTheMovies
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Ross wrote:The Hobgoblins speech is so amazingly well written- and so well performed by Welsh, who hadn't even appeared onscreen yet!
Whoops - I was thinking of another sequence: the videotape where he talks about dugpas. I'll have to revisit the Hobgoblins speech again. Is that in the one that Caleb Deschanel directed? I really like the way he shoots that scene, with a lingering, moodily-lit close-up of Cooper (far and away my favorite part of that episode).
User avatar
Ross
Global Moderator
Posts: 2199
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by Ross »

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Ross wrote:The Hobgoblins speech is so amazingly well written- and so well performed by Welsh, who hadn't even appeared onscreen yet!
Whoops - I was thinking of another sequence: the videotape where he talks about dugpas. I'll have to revisit the Hobgoblins speech again. Is that in the one that Caleb Deschanel directed? I really like the way he shoots that scene, with a lingering, moodily-lit close-up of Cooper (far and away my favorite part of that episode).
Episode 18 (Duwayne Dunham). Cooper gets the tape and chess move from Earle. I just love the dialogue and delivery. An ingenious intro to Earle when he won't even appear onscreen for three more episodes.
"I can see half my life's history in your face... And I'm not sure that I want to."
http://twinpeakssoundtrackdesign.blogspot.com/
User avatar
N. Needleman
Lodge Member
Posts: 2113
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by N. Needleman »

....Sooo, I was advised to check this thread out by LostInTheMovies and it's pretty neat, so I guess I thought so as not to derail another thread I'd put the rest of my impressions as a first timer here.

I watched the show live on ABC with my mom when I was about 8 or 9, and then returned to it as a young teen when it was running on Bravo. My mother brought me in around Episode 2 or 3 and made it clear she thought Leland was the killer. She did not elaborate much as to why, but she said "his reaction was too much" re: Laura's death. I was afraid of Leo and was fascinated by Dr. Jacoby and his glasses.

As I said in the Andy "plank" scene thread re: Episode 8, I was always fascinated by it, and the introduction of more spirits to the show like the Giant did not really faze me as a kid - I think it was just instinctual for a child to assume that of course there are more "ghosts" in such a weird and wonderful place and story. I was terrified of BOB, however, and would flee the scene any time he appeared, especially for Ronette Pulaski's nightmare at the close of that episode. I also was keenly aware of the weird stillness and pauses David Lynch kept adding, and they always frightened me.

I was also devouring all the ancillary material I could find, and I remember walking into a bookstore to read Laura's Secret Diary - it's inconceivable today that that was actually a promotional tie-in book for a major network primetime series that anyone could read, but I did (and did not tell my mother). I was very young and even skimming it its content freaked me out, so I put it down and didn't look at it again for years. I could tell someone had abused Laura Palmer but I didn't know who, even though I was already wary of Leland - Ray Wise's performance had always kind of freaked me out, but I just never made the connection until the reveal. Between the episodes airing and the book I had a sense that the show was much more enchanting and interesting with these strange new things, but also was becoming much more adult and scary. And I was right.

My memories are pretty sketchy after that. I can tell you I was very frightened of Harold clawing his face a few episodes later and the way Maddy screamed, and then I fled and hid under a table in Episode 14 when the final sequence started with the record player skipping - I just listened to it from down the hall, which may have been worse, honestly. Maddy was my favorite character at the time so it was all pretty rough. I remember the Louis Armstrong bit early in the episode and I didn't know who the killer was, but the goodbye scene with Leland and Sarah had me ill at ease and I had a sinking feeling Maddy wasn't going anywhere. My dazed mom had to recap it all.

The next week I tried to rally and come back, but during a commercial break in China Beach, which my mother loved, they showed some promo which had that clip from Episode 14 with BOB laughing in the mirror like an animatronic puppet. That's still incredibly scary to me, and when I saw that I ran to my bedroom and stayed there for most of the remainder of Season 2. ;) I saw episodes here and there, bits and pieces but it's mostly impressions. My poor mother then was faced with the task of explaining the series finale to me, which was a real narrative, I can tell you. I think she thought the Red Room was "a carnival tent". She was very precise on the details though. I didn't summon up the courage to rewatch the series and make it all the way through until the mid-late '90s, when I was a teenager and they were running it on Bravo.

So there you go!
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
LostInTheMovies
Bookhouse Member
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:48 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by LostInTheMovies »

N. Needleman wrote:....Sooo, I was advised to check this thread out by LostInTheMovies and it's pretty neat, so I guess I thought so as not to derail another thread I'd put the rest of my impressions as a first timer here.
Ah this is great. I am fascinated by people who saw it as a kid. I'm a few years younger than you - I was 6 when the pilot aired - but even if I had been 9 I doubt I would have been allowed to watch it... Sounds like you were the same age as Brad Dukes, and had the same reaction as he did to the reveal lol.

Love the idea of the Red Room as a carnival tent for some reason.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Lodge Member
Posts: 2113
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by N. Needleman »

I mean, I think back then we let kids get away with a lot more (or maybe that was just my mom - she used to watch a lot of stuff like Helen Mirren in Prime Suspect with me as well). And also, for that moment in time, the show was really the biggest thing on TV and everyone watched it, so I think it trickled down to a lot of kids with their parents. They bought into one thing and ultimately got something even weirder, and I'm sure that was perceived as a bait and switch for a lot of people. But in my household it was just more like what we'd already been watching.

I was a little superfan - I had the Dale Cooper tapes, the soundtrack cassette, then some sort of tie-in guidebook that I think TV Guide had done after Season 1 (not the Town Guide written later, which I've always wanted to read). I even had a giant poster of Cooper and Truman on my bedroom wall, looking down on me. But after Episode 14, I was so terrified of BOB or even the suggestion of something involving BOB that I couldn't even look at the poster! And it was just Coop and Harry with donuts!

I was always especially fascinated with Sheryl Lee, first as Maddy then later, Laura, especially after seeing FWWM when I got older. My favorite characters back then were probably Maddy, Cooper, Harry, Lucy, Shelly, Norma and Ed (Peggy Lipton was so classy and graceful) and then Catherine. My tiny little gay self had a thing for the bitchy grande dames. Oddly enough I only grew to really appreciate Audrey when I got older.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
Rami Airola
RR Diner Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:31 am

Re: How did you react to these turning points in Twin Peaks?

Post by Rami Airola »

I was 8 years old when it first aired in Finland (it was the spring of 1991, I was born in August 1982). I saw most of the episodes.


1. The pilot
This is weird. The way I remember it, is that instead of Sarah having a vision of the necklace, she remembers seeing Bob. When half of the series aired again on 1995 (they stopped the series in episode 14), I think I remember seeing the necklace-vision for the first time. I wonder if they showed us the European pilot, but then again I don't remember seeing the "Mike shoots Bob" scene until I many many many years later bought the VHS of the European pilot that was released in Finland separately. Maybe they showed the European version, but cut before the last half hour.

2. The appearance of Bob in episode 1
Again, I recall I saw this in the pilot the first time I saw the series. I was horrified by the sudden image. In episode 1, it was also scary to see Laura's face suddenly appearing over Donna's face. There was something very frightening in it.

3. The Red Room dream in episode 2
I was already horrified by the weird shaking this weird person was doing. And when he turned around, looked very weird and sounded even more weird, I was absolutely terrified, but also very interested in it. I had already a habit of watching horror movies. I was both terrified and fascinated about all kinds of scary stories. I think I was even somewhat traumatized by the scene, as for years and years I saw nightmares about the midget and very often when I closed my eyes I was too scared to open them again because I was afraid that the midget would suddenly be right in front of my face, looking and sounding all weird! :D Even though I was so young, I always knew that movies are just movies, and they are not real, but at nights the mind goes to weird places. And besides, Michael J. Anderson wasn't acting his weird appearance because that was all him. That was how he really looked like, so in theory it could've been possible that he would've had appeared in my room some night, and man that thought was scary as hell.

4a. The season finale - the fact that Laura's killer was not revealed
4b. The season finale - Cooper being shot

Didn't do much for me. I guess I knew that the hero wasn't going to die. Also, I didn't think of it as a season finale as I recall the series just continued the next week.

5. The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer - did you read it before watching season 2? Did it point you in a certain direction?
I loaned it from the library after the series had ended. I remember we were at the library with our class. I was either still on the second grade or then I was on third. Can't really remember. Anyways, kids at school knew about Twin Peaks and people knew I liked it. So when we were at the library, a girl in my class came to me and said she found a Twin Peaks book. I got very excited and loaned it immediately. I read it through very quickly. I was a good reader. I learned to read when I was 4 years old. I guess it was pretty much my first PORN book also :D It had pretty damn raunchy stuff for a kid. I remember also that later at school we all had to draw a picture of some situation in the book we loaned. I draw Bob singing the Matilda song. My teacher commented that I perhaps shouldn't be reading a book like that.

6a. The season 2 premiere - the very long opening with the waiter
Can't remember what I thought about it.

6b. The season 2 premiere - the appearance of the giant (which certainly takes the vaguely supernatural air of the show in a new direction)
Freaked me out.

6c. The season 2 premiere - the violent flashback to Laura's murder, with Bob making his first sustained appearance
I think I was covering my face with my hands at that point.

7. Bob crawling over the couch in episode 9
The absolutely most horrifying scene ever. After that I saw many many nightmares about Bob for years.

8a. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - the fact that it was Leland
I recall I knew it already. It might be that people in general knew it already. Maybe it was spoiled in the magazines or something way too early.

8b. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - the fact that it was also Bob
8c. The killer's reveal in episode 14 - Maddy's murder (maybe the most disturbing thing I've seen in a TV show or even movie)

I had taped the episode on VHS, and I watched it the morning I had to go to school. My parents were gone and I was alone. The sudden appearance of Bob and his terrifying laugh scared me greatly. I remember being afraid to be alone at home after that, so I went to school so early that no-one else was there yet.
Even though it scared me, I was hugely fascinated by it. I remember explaining to my friend what I had just seen on Twin Peaks. We were together at the toilet room and I showed how Maddy was cornered and how Bob was showing the "come on" gesture with his hands. For some reason that detail was totally terrifying, and I still find it one of the best little details in the series. It makes Bob even more menacing.

9. The way the discovery & capture of Leland/Bob is handled in episode 16
At this point, every single thing that was dealing with Bob was hyper fascinating to me. I remember thinking that if a person with Bob inside him touches water, it makes Bob leave. :D

10. Leland's wake in episode 17, with the comic subplots emerging and the writers trying to move past the mystery
I just remember Sarah talking about a man with a dirty grey hair. That alone got me pumped enough to watch this and following episodes.

11. The realization that the Cooper-Audrey storyline was not going to play out
Didn't much care about this subplot at that age.

12. The stretch of episodes 17-23 (you know the ones)
Waited for Bob or some other terrifying stuff to appear. It was ok. The only subplot I really didn't care about at all was all the mill stuff with Catherine. Well, the scene where we find out that Tojamura is Catherine freaked me out. It was such a shock to suddenly hear a woman's voice from a man's mouth! :D

13. Where you felt the show picking up again
Didn't think about things like that at that age.

14. The finale (and I know it was a 2-parter in '90 but I'm particularly keen to hear how the Lynch half played)
Taped it on VHS and watched many many times. After this I was a Twin Peaks and David Lynch fan for life. I was into horror, but nothing else really was quite like that.

15. Fire Walk With Me
It was shown on television in early 1995. I taped it and watched it through on a daily basis for quite a long time. I think that after a few years I had already seen it more than 30 times. Back then it was the best movie I had ever seen, and it still is.
Post Reply