The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

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The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:56 pm

Hey all, it's my first post here, but I've been a reader of these forums for awhile. I find Twin Peaks incredibly fascinating and one of the most unique and compelling mythologies I've ever seen. Since I got my pre-ordered blu-ray set of the entire series and film, my mind has been filled with Peaks again lately.

Finally seeing the extended/deleted footage on my blu-ray for the Buenos Aires/Convenience store sequence, which till now could only be read about in the shooting script, was just incredible. I was wondering if people got any new hints, theories or ideas from it though? It filled me with so many questions.

Agent Jeffries tells Cole that he’s “been to one of their meetings". Is it that he knows that Cole already knows who he means, as part of the Blue Rose investigation perhaps? As soon as Jeffries mentions the Ring, Cole practically tells Albert to get lost, like it’s too secret for him to hear about. Jeffries also specifically mentions “Feburary, 1989”, which is the same month Laura Palmer will be killed? Did he already know because of the non-linear time of the Black Lodge?

Agent Jeffries found “something” in Seattle “at Judy’s”. Was it the Ring in Seattle at Judy’s? Is that what caused him to disappear for 2 years (like Agent Desmond)? When we first see him though he is in Buenos Aires, Argentina. So did he "reappear" and then go to Argentina looking for Judy (recall she left a note for him with the hotel staff) without telling anyone in the FBI he was back yet?

Why would the Ring be at Judy’s anyways? And if it was, then how in the world, and why, did Teresa later get it? It's great to see the extended scenes of Teresa to flesh out Leland's discovery of her and her attempted blackmail of him, but, frustratingly, it still doesn't explain what she has to do with the mythology.

And does this mean the Convenience Store is actually in Seattle, and maybe even Judy’s store? I’ve always wondered whether we are supposed to think the Convenience Store was a real or metaphysical place like the Red Room/Black Lodge. Does anybody have a firm idea on this place?

We see BOB's face laughing (in the same lightning as the monkey that whispers Judy) as Jeffries is zapped back to Buenos Aires. Why is BOB teleporting him to Philadelphia and back? I noticed that Argentinian man fearfully asks, “Are you the man?" to Philip and then the next scene has Mike Nelson and Bobby say “Mike IS the man”. Were those deliberately connected?

Does “the chrome reflects our image” have anything to do with how mirrors sometimes show BOB when he is possessing someone in the series? Just WHAT is with that light flashing behind that…thing…beside the black-bearded Woodsman? The way the camera zooms into that part of the room reminds me very much the way the camera zooms into BOB running through the hospital at the end of Episode 8 during Ronette’s dream.

Their descent “from pure air” reminds me of the sylphs or faeries who occupied the strange middle place between angels and humans in the mixed Christian and pagan folklore of medieval Europe.

Does the Electrician’s utterance of “Animal life” finally provide a clue to the mystery of the Owls (that aren’t what they seem) that never quite got answered in the series? Along with the other spirit saying “Electricity,” does this mean that they can “go up and down between the two worlds” through these mediums? I was surprised to see that Mrs. Tremond asking, “Why not be composed of materials and combinations of atoms?” in the shooting script was not on film here, but it would seem to tie into this. When BOB counters that he "has the fury of [his] own momentum", the Grandson says to "fell a victim", which I assume means possess someone. So does that mean this scene takes place at least 40 years before he possessed Leland, as MIKE said Bob had been "nearby for nearly 40 years", or does it refer to an attempt to possess Laura Palmer, since her face briefly fades into the Red Room at the end of this sequence? But if so you would think MIKE wouldn't have tried to stop BOB from doing that, since he gives Laura the Ring (which appears to prevent him from completing the ritual, causing him to kill her) and the Little Man wouldn't have been seen triumphantly laughing as she is killed.

The Jumping Man’s face screeching in the background seems like the same kind of white face with yellow teeth that we have seen overtake the faces of Windom Earl, Laura and Leland. He seems really important but I can't figure out what or who he is supposed to represent.

Because this sequence ends with the Little Man and BOB leaving the Convenience Store for the Red Room, does this indicate that it takes place just after MIKE “cut off his Arm” (who we know is the Little Man) and ended his partnership with BOB, since in Cooper’s dream MIKE explained that, “We lived above it [the convenience store]. But when I saw the face of God, I was changed…” etc? Of course that presumes he wasn't just lying to Cooper, because later at the road incident with Leland and Laura, MIKE/Gerard shouts how he "stole the corn" he had "canned above the store". I assumed that referred to BOB feasting on Teresa's garmonbozia when it had been set aside for MIKE since she was wearing the Ring. But that hints the Store was still in use, right?

When Little Man says “Fire walk with me” and BOB claps his hands and they both go through the red curtains, does this mean they created the Red Room or did it already exist? I guess that goes into what the Red Room represents anyways, which Lynch has never and said could not give an answer on. Yet the next time Mrs. Tremond and the Grandson are seen next, they seem to be in physical form on Earth ("materials and combinations of atoms"), in Fat Trout Trailer Park (with the Ring?) as "Chalfont" or later in "Mrs. Tremond's" house with Donna Hayward.

The shot of the Lodge spirits fading into the forest reminds me of the lines from the series about wood holding “many spirits”. Is the idea that the trees of Ghostwood forest are possessed or inhabited by these spirits?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:06 pm

And does this mean the Convenience Store is actually in Seattle, and maybe even Judy’s store? I’ve always wondered whether we are supposed to think the Convenience Store was a real or metaphysical place like the Red Room/Black Lodge. Does anybody have a firm idea on this place?


p. 181
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2rN ... on&f=false

It is as real as the Planet in Eraserhead and the man living inside it; an artistic expression (of Mythopoeic thought?) that takes the form of a narrative of incest/marriage/masks/murder/dentistry but bleeds through the nature of reality as expressed by a painter/filmmaker who's dealing with the "human form" inserted into a larger context. Is the room at the end of 2001 "real"? How does the Star Child get to appear? Why does the Monkey speak? What is the nature of consciousness? There is a Lacanian/Zizekian line of thought, the Jungian perspective, the Quantum realm and so on. Why do we see through the staircase handle (as it becomes translucent) after Phillip Jeffries returns to Buenos Aires? "He's the one who's doing it. I can see him through the wall."

http://offscreen.com/view/enigmatic_mr_lynch

"Hello again. Can you see through a wall? Can you see through human
skin? X-rays see through solid, or so-called solid objects. There
are things in life that exist, and yet our eyes cannot see them.
Have you ever seen something startling that others cannot see? Why
are some things kept from our vision? Is life a puzzle?

"I am filled with questions. Sometimes my questions are answered.
In my heart, I can tell if the answer is correct. I am my own judge.

"In a dream, are all the characters really you? Different aspects of
you? Do answers come in dreams?

"One more thing: I grew up in the woods. I understand many things
because of the woods. Trees standing together, growing alongside one
another, providing so much.

"I chew pitch gum. On the outside, let's say of the ponderosa pine,
sometimes pitch oozes out. Runny pitch is no good to chew. Hard,
brittle pitch is no good. But in between there exists a firm,
slightly crusted pitch with such a flavor. This is the pitch I chew."
Last edited by Fernanda on Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:28 pm

Fernanda wrote:an artistic expression (of Mythopoeic thought?) pertaining to a narrative of incest which bleeds through the nature of reality as expressed by a painter/filmmaker.


But the Convenience Store is never specifically connected with Laura's story of incest and murder. It originates from the tacked on ending Lynch made of the European pilot, where MIKE and BOB appear to have been living people who can die from a gunshot, albeit eccentric and quite insane. In its original context, the idea that they lived together in an apartment "above a convenience store". Which he means "like it sounds' (i.e. homosexual relationship?) when they were partners in serial rape/murder, makes logical sense.

But re-edited into the sequence of Cooper's dream in Episode 2, it appears far more cryptic, mysterious and nonsensical. Especially with the revelation that MIKE and BOB aren't physical beings, but inhabiting spirits. And then in the film we see the Room Above the Convenience Store, which looks physical with the script pointing out "storm windows flapping in the wind", "plastic chairs", "dilapidated walls" etc. But yet we only see the surreal Lodge characters there (but apparently Jeffries was there too at some point). MIKE, inhabiting Philip Gerard accuses BOB, inside Leland, of "stealing the corn" he had "canned above the store". This line makes me wonder if it is, in fact, just a metaphysical space after all, i.e. the Store represents our world with us being ears of Corn. And above it=the world of the spirits who claim, prey on and feed off of us.

And then there's the fact that the Room Above the Store seems to precede the Red Room/Black Lodge. We see BOB and the LMAP leave the Store through red curtains and when we see them next, it is inside the Red Room/Black Lodge.

In Laura's dream where Cooper tells her not to take the Ring, does she first pass through that same Room Above the Store? She sees Mrs. Tremond in one room and the Grandson in another room (who snaps his fingers and sends her to the Red Room). Was one of these rooms the same as the Convenience Store scene?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:58 pm

p. 195
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2rN ... rn&f=false

But the Convenience Store is never specifically connected with Laura's story of incest and murder. It originates from the tacked on ending Lynch made of the European pilot


He shot the Club Silencio scene in Mulholland Drive for the closed ended pilot to be sold to international markets (same deal he got for Twin Peaks as a condition for financing) but when the pilot was discarted he incorporated those ideas into the cinematic version of the film.

After the fact, the Hermeneutics of the film text allow you to make the connections but I'm sure he wasn't aware of it on a purely intellectual level, as he was writing it, but then the thing acquires a life of itself and becomes a functioning "organism", as a work of art. Michael J. Anderson mentions that Lynch would write something and by the time he was on set he would alter some aspect of the idea or maybe an accident would happen and he would say "I bet that's what I meant by it."

Laura's face (when she's under the fan) is superimposed with the image of the ring on the table inside the Red Room after Bob and the Dwarf first enter the Lodge in the missing pieces. Whether Laura is an expression of primordial/iconic femininty or an abstraction herself is a case to be made, but she is connected with the Red Room the moment Mike and The Arm first enter it. There are paralells between Laura and Judy inasmuch as Judy is connected with the convenience store and Laura with the lodge. Maybe one is the mask of the other. Maybe it is all happening inside the "personalized" consciousness of "Judy" or maybe the utterance is something that makes visible the "unifying word", as Nochimson puts it. Bowie suggests she's a real person who also happens to have a store named after her in Seattle (an echo of Horne's), but why would he be looking for her in Buenos Aires? So we have this division of name, person, and place named after the person.

COOPER
What did you find out from her parents?

HAWK
Little. Ronette recently quit her job at the
perfume counter of Horne's department store.

COOPER
Is that Benjamin Horne?

HAWK
Yes, sir, family business. Everything else is good
except that at ten o'clock there was a one-armed
man snooping around intensive care.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2578&start=45

Convenience Store / Marketplace
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=ovM ... ce&f=false
Last edited by Fernanda on Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:48 pm

Laura's face (when she's under the fan) is superimposed with the image of the ring on the table inside the Red Room after Bob and the Dwarf first enter the Lodge in the missing pieces... she is connected with the Red Room the moment Mike and The Arm first enter it. There are paralells between Laura and Judy inasmuch as Judy is connected with the convenience store and Laura with the lodge. Maybe one is the mask of the other... Bowie suggests she's a real person who also happens to have a store named after her in Seattle (an echo of Horne's), but why would he be looking for her in Buenos Aires? So we have this division of name, person, and place named after the person.


Well, as Lucy says, "maybe a person could be in the place?"

I think those are very good questions. Of course, according to Bob Engels there was going to be this whole storyline involving Windom Earle, Josie Packard, Judy and Jeffries down in Buenos Aires, so that could be why he went looking for there when he reappeared. On a side note, I've read that post of yours you linked to twice now and I'm still not sure I fully understand all the points being made, but I thought there were some well made connections there.

While I'm not looking at these things quite literally, I suppose I'm trying to conceptualize them from the perspective inside the fictional world, rather than through the lens of real world references, allusions, symbology or psychological deconstructions. So while MIKE, BOB, the Red Room, Judy, Laura, the Store may all represent and be intended to convey a myriad of things related to human psychology and Lynch's other works, I'm looking at them from the perspective of how they work and are connected within that world of Twin Peaks.

So, for example, the suggestion that, from the beginning, when we first see the Little Man and BOB enter the Red Room, we see Laura's face, implying there is a connection, is interesting. But I would assume, within that world, BOB and MIKE, respectively, are ancient, maybe even timeless. So thus I would think the Red Room has been there for a long time before Laura was ever conceived. Is it the space somewhere between the real world and humanity's dreams/nightmares (Cooper first goes there in a dream)?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:24 pm

I suppose I'm trying to conceptualize them from the perspective inside the fictional world, rather than through the lens of real world references, allusions, symbology or psychological deconstructions.


"One of the ways to collapse the dimensions between space
and time and bring us back into the eternal Present is to personalize the de-psychologized
big Other. The personalized big Other makes it extremely difficult to negotiate
established frameworks insofar as its personalization challenges the beliefthat
hierarchical structures are concrete by exposing the fact that they are composed of
capricious individuals. What I am suggesting is that humanity is not approaching some
teleological end but the foundation oftheir forgotten beginning. In order for the beginning
to begin an accidental event must trigger some kind of egalitarian chain reaction that
results in everyone's simultaneous recognition ofthe equality of everyone else or the fact
that there is no big Other. Without such an occurrence, I agree with Michael Chion's
claim that Eraserhead and by extension Twin Peaks, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive
are films about the impossibility of death."

But I would assume, within that world, BOB and MIKE, respectively, are ancient, maybe even timeless.


An additional piece of evidence supporting the theory ofthe Lodge's excessive
place within a (post) symbolic reality (a place that is not symbolic reality as we know it
yet exists within the same confines ofreality insofar as it does not reconstitute ourselves
with the Real) is provided by the "Twin Peaks Collectible CardArt." In "The Semiotics of
Cobbler: Twin Peaks' Interpretive Community", David Lavery points out that Bob's birth
date, according to his collectible card, is the beginning oftime (9). This seemingly trivial
fact directly relates Bob with the origins ofsymbolic excess. In other words, after the
constitutive Event severed our relationship to the Real (thereby transforming the Real's
absolute presence into manifold undetectable traumatic particles and engendering Time),
a series of dimensions was created each ofwhich exists coincidentally/symbiotically with
the other. Bob symbolizes the excess ofthe temporallhistorical plain or that which cannot
be openly acknowledged within symbolic reality yet fmds a place in post-symbolic
excessive reality (a place that began with the beginning oftime and Eternity). Bob IS the
realistic 'big Other' generated by the insubstantial fantastic appearances ofthe 'big Other'
in the temporal dimension. Bob's unrelenting jouissance is terrifying in the sense that he
physically embodies the temporal appearances ofthe 'big Other' and displays the
underlying pathology inherent within political figureheads. Coincidentally, it is important
to remember that Bob's excessive reality is only excessive in relation to the temporalspatial
symbolic realm: in relation to Reality, both the post-Realistic and the post-postRealistic
realms are equally excessive.

The traumatic relationship between the post-Realistic realms is displayed formally
and narrativelywithin Phillip Jeffries' scene in Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me. Its brief
appearance within the Twin Peaks narrative symbolically depicts fleeting emotionally
traumatic Realistic contact for individuals inhabiting the symbolic realm insofar as both
phenomenons (both Phillip Jeffries' scene within Twin Peaks and Trauma within the
individual) occupy an extremely ephemeral and disconcerting place within their
respective narratives (phillip's scene within Fire Walk is one ofthe primary reasons for
the vitriolic critical response the movie received). At the same time, Phillip's artistic
display of Trauma does not reflect ACTUAL Trauma insofar as it is a representation of
Trauma and therefore its distinguished counterpart (an artistic display symbolizing a
Traumatic presence [eventually] negates its relation to actual Trauma [if it ever had one to
begin with.]

The content of Phillip Jeffries' moment within Twin Peaks reflects the
Traumatic/Etemal relationship between the post-Realistic realms while also establishing
the spatial/temporal consistency of the Lodge. Phillip enters Gordon Cole's office after
finding a way to arrest the flow oftime. Phillip basically creates a non-temporal bubble
from the elevator on Cole's floor leading up to Cole's office in which time ceases to flow
as it normally is recorded within symbolic reality. We then watch Phillip's disconcerted
presence as it tries to maintain a concurrent existence within both symbolic realities (that
of 'our' reality and that ofthe Lodge). Naturally, attempting to maintain the form ofboth
the Grandson and Phillip Jeffries in two separate dimensions is somewhat traumatic as
Phillip's harrowing scream demonstrates near the end ofthe scene when the Lodge
encompasses him once more. Phillip's establishment ofthe non-temporal bubble around
Cole's floor and the brief interrelations between the two dimensions allows him to briefly
return to the form of Phillip Jeffries (as the Grandson's presence returns to our symbolic
realm).

The inversion of our temporallhistorical flow of time (the excess generated within
post-symbolic reality by time's constant flow and historical stasis within our symbolic
realm [time always flows but nothing Ideally changes]) is presented by the Lodge's ability
to maneuver throughout the different time periods established within our dimension
(time's absent current within the Lodge objectively depicts the excess of the synchronous
repetitive structure oftime within our symbolic reality). The concurrent scenes within
Phillip Jeffries' scene combines with the lack of time within the Lodge to expose the
Lodge's symbiotic relationship to pre-Lodgian reality insofar as the direct display ofthe
subsequent realms engenders their coincident relationship (they are each constituent parts
of a series and each of them support a universal [in their opposition] that cannot be ideally
reached [for if it was the unbearable presence of the Now would reconstruct everything]).
Inhabitants ofthe Lodge can navigate spatial and temporal boundaries precisely because
the inhabitants of symbolic reality cannot. Nevertheless, the inhabitants of the Lodge
remain bound by diminutive spatial and temporal designations insofar as their constitutive
lack of spatial and temporal guidelines is generated and sustained by a reality that is
framed by such guidelines. Both symbolic and post-symbolic reality are linked together
by a series of spatial/temporal oppositions that attempt to reconstitute a complete
relationship with the Real.

The uncanny temporal and spatial guidelines within the Lodge also allow us to
understand the bizarre hierarchical relationship between entities from the Lodge and the
process of Fire Walking.

JEFFRIES
(to Bellhop)
Hey... hey...

BELLHOP
(half crying)
Oh, Mr. Jeffries. De shit it come out of
my ass! Santa Maria, where did you go?

They stare at each other as the blackened wall continues to smoke.

56. INT. SURVEILLANCE ROOM - DAY

Cooper and Cole sit in front of the monitor. Cooper plays back the
surveillance tape. _It_shows_Jeffries_coming_up_behind_Cooper_.
_Then_moving_past_him_. Cooper turns to Cole.

COOPER
He was here.

DISSOLVE TO:

57. EXT. HAYWARD HOUSE

Laura Palmer continues down the sidewalk towards us.

On screen it reads:



"THURSDAY - SEVEN DAYS BEFORE"

Laura stops and turns. We suddenly find ourselves in front of the
Hayward House.

LAURA
Donna?... Donna?...

LAURA'S POV

DONNA HAYWARD gathering her books and coming out the door.

DONNA
Just a minute, Laura.

58. ON THE SIDEWALK

Donna joins Laura.

LAURA
If I am going to get through math today,
you're going to have to bring me up to
speed quick.

DONNA
You didn't do your homework?

LAURA
Noooo...

DONNA
(a pal)
Okay, this test is going to be about the
theorems I told you about last week. You
remember the...

LAURA
Don't tell me now. Tell me right before
the test. I won't be able to remember
long enough.

DONNA
You graduating this year will be proof
that miracles happen.

LAURA
Thanks.

Laura tweaks Donna's cheek.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:45 pm

Naturally, attempting to maintain the form of both the Grandson and Phillip Jeffries in two separate dimensions is somewhat traumatic as Phillip's harrowing scream demonstrates near the end ofthe scene when the Lodge encompasses him once more. Phillip's establishment of the non-temporal bubble around Cole's floor and the brief interrelations between the two dimensions allows him to briefly return to the form of Phillip Jeffries (as the Grandson's presence returns to our symbolic realm).


Woah woah, hold up. How do we know exactly, that Philip Jeffries and the Grandson are "one and the same"? I never got that impression from the film.

The uncanny temporal and spatial guidelines within the Lodge also allow us to
understand the bizarre hierarchical relationship between entities from the Lodge and the
process of Fire Walking.


What do you mean? Please define: "the process of Fire Walking".
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:14 pm

"The process of Fire Walking"
(drawing from author Matthew Clarke)

(Page 74)
https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/11893

The Fire Walking individual must traumatically navigate his or her manifold
temporal/historical symptoms in an attempt to encounter their fundamental fantasy.
If the Fire Walker successfully meets his fundamental symptom and is able to preserve a sense
of self (within other selves), then she will encounter the ultimate irony maintaining the·
Lodge's reality: Bob's incomprehensible authority.

Windom Earle collides with Bob's de-personalized presence during Twin Peaks
Episode 29. Earle has manipulated his Fire Walk with an enormous amount of success as
is demonstrated by the fact that the words he speaks take on a corporeal form while those
Agent Cooper utters do not. Moreover, Earle is already able to overcome the temporal
and spatial limitations restraining him within the terrestrial realm, a fact that is illustrated
by the space he shares with Annie Blackburn, Caroline Earle, and Laura Palmer. Earle's
vibrant free-flowing presence within the Lodge logically assumes that his power is
unlimited and he attempts to take Agent Cooper's soul (or become Agent Cooper). Upon
doing so, Bob immediately terminates his efforts and thus acquires ownership of Earle's
presence.

Bob's authority within the Lodge is generated by his embodiment of realistic
excess. Bob's inversion of the appearance of the 'big Other' (the Law, the Party) within
symbolic reality allows him to BE corporeal authorial presence within the Lodge. Bob is
the Law, Authority, the ideal version of Frank Booth or the Baron Harkonnen. His
identity is the Rock which the most successful Fire Walkers (those who are able to free
themselves from manifold temporal/spatial symptoms) cannot surmount. The limitations
Bob places upon freedom are comparable to the symbiotic relationship between the
symbolic dimension and the post-symbolic. As stated previously, Phillip Jeffries' scene
within Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me demonstrates the way in which the seemingly
absent temporal and spatial dimensions ofthe Lodge maintain a relationship to symbolic
time and space insofar as they are dependent upon symbolic time and space in their
opposition to them. That is, the Lodge's absence of temporal and spatial demarcations
(-x) are the realistic excess of symbolically real time and space (where time flows and
bodies cannot become one another)(x). Both the Lodgian and symbolically real timespace
continuums coincide in a series that approaches the absent temporal and spatial
dimensions of the Real, the unbearable presence of Eternity or the Now (X). Thus, ideal
freedom does not exist within the Lodge even though its framework suggests that it would
support such an axiom.
Hence, Windom Earle's belief that he had found freedom is
confronted by the presence of Bob, who reminds him that Bob is the closest possible
asymptotic link to Reality and Freedom. Bob is the rock preventing absolute freedom
from unraveling within the Lodge, the hindrance freely maintaining the Lodge's
framework.

How do we know exactly, that Philip Jeffries and the Grandson are "one and the same"? I never got that impression from the film.


Independent film director Brandon Moll has suggested that the Grandson is Phillip
Jeffries' bodily form within the Black Lodge. After Jeffries mentions that he has found
something, the Grandson is shown looking out from behind a mask made of clay and this
coincidence evidences the idea that they are the same person. Further, the Grandson is
present at the meeting of evil forces (Bob and the Man From Another Place) even though
he assists Laura Palmer and Donna Hayward throughout Twin Peaks. His goodness is
symbolically demonstrated in this scene by his mask which is not molded to his face (as is
the identical mask that is shown on the face of the wicked man in red jumping up and
down). It seems as if Jeffries has infiltrated Bob's gang unbeknownst to Bob and has not
been destroyed by Bob's malice.
Last edited by Fernanda on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Robin Davies » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:48 am

Fernanda wrote:Independent film director Brandon Moll has suggested that the Grandson is Phillip Jeffries' bodily form within the Black Lodge. His goodness is symbolically demonstrated in this scene by his mask which is not molded to his face
"Goodness"?
He tells BOB to "fell a victim". Doesn't this make him the original bad guy?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:54 pm

After Jeffries mentions that he has found something, the Grandson is shown looking out from behind a mask made of clay... the Grandson is present at the meeting of evil forces (Bob and the Man From Another Place) even though he assists Laura Palmer and Donna Hayward throughout Twin Peaks. His goodness is symbolically demonstrated in this scene by his mask which is not molded to his face (as is the identical mask that is shown on the face of the wicked man in red jumping up and down). It seems as if Jeffries has infiltrated Bob's gang unbeknownst to Bob...


I'm still reading the PDF you linked to, but I don't think this interpretation of the Grandson is in keeping with all the facts. In the film, when we see the Grandson, he first tells BOB to "fell a victim". To me, I think this echoes Cooper's line from Episode 17, where he tells Sarah that Leland "fell victim to one of these when he was young and trusting". Furthermore, if the mask, which has no eyes and no mouth, represents possession, it is fitting that the Grandson is not wearing the mask until the next time he is seen after he tells BOB this. Lifting it once, shows the Grandson. Lifting it again, shows the monkey. While I'm not sure specifically why a monkey, I think it may be symbolic of the host body being a puppet.

His "assistance" of Laura Palmer and even Donna Hayward is not hard to rationalize alongside MIKE and the Little Man's help to Cooper in giving him clues to see beyond the physical, mundane dead ends of the case and to the spiritual realities underneath it. BOB has become so powerful by this point that he is a free agent, and not cooperating with the Lodge. Remember, he was once MIKE's "familiar", i.e. a servant role, before whatever happened with MIKE splitting from his Arm weakened his ability to control BOB, perhaps thus facilitating the need for the creation of the Ring. By leading Cooper to Leland and then pressuring BOB to leave his host, it would appear he was forced back to the Black Lodge and come back under control. Of course, by taking possession of Cooper at the end, it would seem he is free again.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:37 pm

The issue 58 of Wrapped in Plastic has an interview with Robert Engels.
He says:
"There's a great part of Twin Peaks that's builton sort of an altered reality just behind the reality that is happening. The exact same thing is happening two nanoseconds behind the thing that you're seeing. Or there is another one just in front of it that's exactly the same. For me, that means the Red Room is much more metaphysical. That would explain the two Coopers very easily - there is another Cooper just behind the other Cooper. It wasn't that we consciously put those things in the series, but David and I talked about that. It was a cool thing to think about as you wrote."
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:18 am

In that sense the red room appears to be the very domestication/balance between Bob's unrestrained momentum and The Arm's reaction to invoke Walking, to which Bob consents, thus laying out the rules of air on fire (Wow Bob Wow), unboundedness and finally containment


So how really do you think the Red Room domesticates/balances out BOB's furious momentum and the Arm's desire to Walk/stay together and take things slowly?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:12 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2618&p=30547#p30547

From Hotel Room (1993)

"For a millennium, the space for the hotel room existed undefined. Mankind captured it, gave it shape and passed through. And sometimes in passing through, they found themselves brushing up against the secret names of truth."

The only times when Bob says "Fire Walk With Me" are in the script AFTER Little Mike first says it; in the Atmospherics deleted scene when they're both Doppelgängers, and in the note. During Cooper's dream it is clear that he has the same tattoo as Mike. In the same dream from episode 2 Bob is seen walking towards the screen/Cooper. Even Bob has a Doppelgänger. This is Cooper's Red Room (One-Eyed Jack's: Audrey's Rescue => Red Room: Annie's Rescue) different from Leland's at the end of FWWM.

Doppelgänger: a look-alike or double of a living person who is sometimes portrayed as a harbinger of bad luck. In some traditions, a doppelgänger seen by a person's relative or friend portends illness or danger while seeing one's own doppelgänger is said to be an omen of death.

The word doppelgänger is a loanword from German Doppelgänger consisting of the two substantives Doppel (double) Gänger (walker or goer).

Sarah Palmer was reading a book on how to speak German before she sees the white horse.

It takes two rings to form a marriage. When Mike says "with this ring I thee wed" (although we don't yet see a ring), Bob claps his hands and a circle of fire appears before we move into into the Red Room. In the script the Red Room appears after Bob says "Fire Walk With Me", but MFAP says it first; the script doesn't mention a wedding in that scene. After they walk into the Red Room we see the Owl Cave ring supperimposed over Laura's image under the fan.

The Red Room seems to be mostly Bob's "creation" or his response to MFAP's proposal, as well as the stage where reality's metaphysical psychodrama between masculine and feminine energies is played out (intercourse between the two worlds/One-Eyed Jack's: "men go there, women work there", the new girl in episode 2, Nadine's smooth drape runner, the grease, the mink oil) the way it's mythologized in the series notwithstanding, though the FWWM script's last scene without the angel takes place inside the BLACK LODGE/RED ROOM). "David Lavery points out that Bob's birth date, according to his collectible card, is the beginning of time. This seemingly trivial fact directly relates Bob with the origins of symbolic excess. In other words, after the constitutive Event severed our relationship to the Real (thereby transforming the Real's absolute presence into manifold undetectable traumatic particles and engendering Time), a series of dimensions was created each of which exists coincidentally/symbiotically with the other."

In episode 29 after the "three stages of coffee" magic trick indicating the passage of time (in reverse), Cooper spills the coffee (Lynch specifically instructed Michael J. Anderson NOT to spill the corn during the filmming of the convenience store scene) after which The Man From Another Place says Fire Walk With Me/Wow Bob Wow (circularity.) Now instead of a circle of fire we see uncontained flames overcome the screen. Cooper's doppelgänger RUNS after him when Cooper becomes scared ("He is BOB, eager for fun. He wears a smile, everybody run.")
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:30 pm

and in the Atmospherics deleted scene when they're both Doppelgängers. During Cooper's dream it is clear that he has the same tattoo as Mike. In the same dream from episode 2 Bob is seen walking towards the screen/Cooper. Even Bob has a Doppelgänger. This is Cooper's Red Room (One-Eyed Jack's: Audrey's Rescue => Red Room: Annie's Rescue) different from Leland's at the end of FWWM.


Where is this deleted scene? I never knew BOB was ever filmed with a doppelganger of him. I saw the LMFAP had one in Episode 29, even though I never understood, since he is already evil, why he would have a "shadow self".

How is Cooper's Red Room different from Leland's at the end of the film? Or Laura's when she goes there in her dream? Or Windom and Annie's when they go there in Episode 29? They all appear to have the same features, despite those features rather oddly matching up with the material details of Cooper's investigation into Laura's murder (red drapes, Waldo's shadow, dancing Little Man, zig-zag flooring matches Leland's zig-zag suit coat, "sometimes my arms bend back", "that gum you like", music in the air, etc.).
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Fernanda » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:51 pm

It's in the Atmospherics Red Room feature (disc 10) as well as the menu from the same disc. Each Atmospherics has deleted bits inserted into them.

How is Cooper's Red Room different from Leland's at the end of the film?


Lynch mentions something about this in Lynch on Lynch. He says the Red Room changes according to the person who enters it, or from whose perspective it is seen. They each play out according to a person's specific subconscious references, although Annie does leave the Red Room wearing Caroline's dress. There's a bleed-through effect to what happens there and what comes out of it, sort of like Allegra Geller's game in eXistenZ.

Log Lady Intro (Episode 9): "Does our thinking affect what goes on outside us, and what goes on inside us? I think it does."

Since he is already evil, why he would have a "shadow self".


All things considered, FWWM opens with a television set being smashed; it indicates among other things that things will be different to say the least. LMFAP doesn't seem evil in Cooper's dream from episode 2, which is where the whole thing started (Lynch leaning against the the hood of the car digging the warmth.) Yes, Gerard laughs in the FWWM script after he leaves the two girls behind, and LMFAP appears to be rejoicing at the killing, but the music from Cooper's dream is played out again when Cooper meets him for the second time in The Missing Pieces ("no place to go... but HOME!") before it is interruped abruptly, just as Sarah Palmer does with the music Leland is playing while dancing with Laura's picture in episode 2, which preceeds Cooper's dream in the Red Room. Of course at that point The Red Room is both Cooper's and Laura's, but like I mentioned before, Laura doesn't describe herself as the little man's cousin in her diary even though Cooper hears him describe her in that way.
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