The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

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StealThisCorn
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:27 pm

He says the Red Room changes according to the person who enters it, or from whose perspective it is seen. They each play out according to a person's specific subconscious references


Well I did assume that, yes, the "trials" or tests change depending on the explorer's subconscious fears, failures, desires etc. But, other than that, how exactly does the appearance of the Red Room itself change? It seems to have the same red drapes, art deco furniture and zig-zag flooring no matter if Cooper, Laura, Leland or Windom are entering it. Late in Season 2 I think maybe Peyton, Engels and Frost might have been toying with the idea with shots of Briggs seated on a stone throne in a jungle and the hooded guardian (or that all is related to the White Lodge). I remember originally the Black Lodge in the script for Episode 29 was going to be a mixture of the Black and White Great Northern, the Red Room and a Dentist's Office. I'm glad Lynch revised that though.

So what do you make of the fact that Laura doesn't mention the LMAP calling her his cousin in the diary entry? Just a retcon? Speaking of which, I still don't understand why Cooper never followed up on the Little Man's clue about the cousin that looks "almost exactly like Laura Palmer". If he had connected that to Maddy, he might have prevented her murder.

LMFAP doesn't seem evil in Cooper's dream from episode 2


True, but he also doesn't seem real either. At first glance, the whole dreams seems like Cooper's intuition taking details of the case and trying to work through them on a subconscious level. At least, that's how they portray it, except for him seeing BOB who appears almost exactly the same as he does in Sarah's earlier vision separately. MIKE seems like he is a good guy trying to atone for his atrocities and help Cooper but I never fully trusted him because when Cooper asked him, "Where does Bob come from?", he blew him off and said, "That cannot be revealed." Since we later learn this is the Black Lodge, that told me while MIKE wanted to reign BOB in, he still couldn't be trusted and had his own agenda.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Jasper » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:52 pm

StealThisCorn wrote:
How is Cooper's Red Room different from Leland's at the end of the film? Or Laura's when she goes there in her dream? Or Windom and Annie's when they go there in Episode 29? They all appear to have the same features, despite those features rather oddly matching up with the material details of Cooper's investigation into Laura's murder (red drapes, Waldo's shadow, dancing Little Man, zig-zag flooring matches Leland's zig-zag suit coat, "sometimes my arms bend back", "that gum you like", music in the air, etc.).


I just want to point out that the flying shadow in Cooper's dream is an owl. There has been some speculation on this over the years, including some suggesting the shadow was Saturn, tying it in with the Saturn lamp and the Venus statue. Nevertheless, we received a definitive answer from the crew at the big USC event in 2013. Their job was to create the shadow of a flying owl. Whether or not they pulled that off is debatable, but the dreamlike effect is successful, regardless of anything else.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Jasper » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:10 am

StealThisCorn wrote:Because this sequence ends with the Little Man and BOB leaving the Convenience Store for the Red Room, does this indicate that it takes place just after MIKE “cut off his Arm” (who we know is the Little Man) and ended his partnership with BOB, since in Cooper’s dream MIKE explained that, “We lived above it [the convenience store]. But when I saw the face of God, I was changed…” etc? Of course that presumes he wasn't just lying to Cooper, because later at the road incident with Leland and Laura, MIKE/Gerard shouts how he "stole the corn" he had "canned above the store". I assumed that referred to BOB feasting on Teresa's garmonbozia when it had been set aside for MIKE since she was wearing the Ring. But that hints the Store was still in use, right?


My feeling is that Lynch probably altered the meaning of the convenience store between the series and the film. I think it likely began more more literally, but then came to represent something like the dimension directly above ours (making it very CONVENIENT for them to feed upon humans). So, when we see the assembled spirits above the convenience store, I think it's probably a metaphor rather than a true space that looks like that.

I think Michael J. Anderson may portray the COMPLETE spirit, MIKE, in the convenience store scene. I assume that this scene is the first time those spirits enter the place between our world and theirs. It follows that MIKE would not yet have encountered/inhabited Philip Gerard. When MIKE removes his/Gerard’s arm, it’s possible that MIKE begins to use the visage of Gerard, since he is now two beings (at least kinda sorta). After all, MIKE appears visually as Gerard IN THE LODGE, even though Gerard is an actual human being with a real, physical existence.

Al Strobel said (at USC in 2013) that he felt it was perhaps an aesthetic choice by Lynch to have him portray MIKE in the lodge. Naturally the scene with the rejoining of the arm wouldn’t have been possible otherwise, so that’s another motive to have Strobel portray MIKE in the lodge.

*This opens up a can of worms, as you could argue that MIKE’s motivations have changed between the show and the film, (perhaps reflecting new ideas on the part of Lynch) or you could argue that MIKE was simply lying to and manipulating the humans on the show (which is more satisfying in light of the total TP experience).
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:38 am

Jasper wrote:I think Michael J. Anderson may portray the COMPLETE spirit, MIKE, in the convenience store scene.


Oh alright. I had thought maybe Lynch was trying to play on Anderson's short stature as symbolic of how Little Man (who says "I am the Arm") isn't a "complete being" (all unfortunate implications from that aside) and, not being whole, isn't able keep Bob under control as his familiar like Mike did when he was whole. Which I thought had something to do with the ring and the marriage being discussed between them at the Formica table.

So, when we see the assembled spirits above the convenience store, I think it's probably a metaphor rather than a true space that looks like that.


That makes the most sense to me as well. Although David Bowie's line about how he "found something in Seattle at Judy's and then there they were" and how he had "been to one of their meetings. It was above a convenience store" always made me wonder if there was some physical basis for that place.

MIKE was simply lying to and manipulating the humans on the show (which is more satisfying in light of the total TP experience).


I find this interpretation works for me, but it does leave me confused as to why, if Mike is still evil and fine with eating the pain and sorrow of Laura's murder (and chastising Bob for stealing Teresa's that he "canned above the store"), then why did he ever "take the entire arm off" and divide in the first place?
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Jasper » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:55 am

StealThisCorn wrote:
Jasper wrote:So, when we see the assembled spirits above the convenience store, I think it's probably a metaphor rather than a true space that looks like that.


That makes the most sense to me as well. Although David Bowie's line about how he "found something in Seattle at Judy's and then there they were" and how he had "been to one of their meetings. It was above a convenience store" always made me wonder if there was some physical basis for that place.


Well, I've always sort of assumed that "Judy's in Seattle" meant Judy's home, and that what Jeffries found was indeed the ring. Since the ring transported him to the meeting, this right away suggests that the meeting was probably not Earthly. I'd say that it looked like it looked to Jeffries because that's the only way he could see it, as it's beyond true comprehension. So perhaps he sees the metaphor (which may also be how people experience the lodge). The question of why Jeffries witnessed a convenience store meeting, which presumably happened prior to these spirits inhabiting the lodge, is very difficult to answer. It may be as simple as time behaving strangely among the lodge inhabitants — so strangely that Jeffries could witness the very creation of the doorway to the lodge and/or creation of the lodge itself. The nature and age of the lodge is another confusing subject. If we have glyphs in the Owl Cave which include the symbol on the ring and tall man and short man images, as well as legends (told by Hawk) about the Black Lodge, then how does that work with the lodge spirits arriving in the 1950s? Perhaps the lodge was there, and that is where humans (and spirits?) have always met their shadow selves, and BOB, MIKE et al are simply hanging out there. That doesn't quite explain the Owl Cave symbol on the ring, or why the cave paintings show what might be the Giant and the LMFAP. Presumably the cave paintings and the legends shared by Hawk go back hundreds or thousands of years. The sad fact is that there may not be an answer. TP is a somewhat complex world, and not everyone is as thorough as Tolkien. There was definitely a tradition in TP of making things up as they went along.

StealThisCorn wrote:
Jasper wrote:MIKE was simply lying to and manipulating the humans on the show (which is more satisfying in light of the total TP experience).


I find this interpretation works for me, but it does leave me confused as to why, if Mike is still evil and fine with eating the pain and sorrow of Laura's murder (and chastising Bob for stealing Teresa's that he "canned above the store"), then why did he ever "take the entire arm off" and divide in the first place?


I wish I knew. Since MIKE's tale of personal redemption fits perfectly with the European pilot, I tend to think that we were meant to take it at face value in that instance. While it's certainly possible, I doubt that Lynch had the idea about Michael J. Anderson being the arm until much later (and what a great idea it was). As the series progressed, the ideas about the lodge inhabitants must have also progressed, and the face-value story told by MIKE in the European pilot and seen later in the regular series was eventually reinterpreted. We're left with the question of how the arm removal could be explained with satisfying continuity. If I put on my writing cap, I can imagine that MIKE, while in control of Gerard, had the evil incantation tattoo'd on Gerard's arm. It may actually have been Gerard who "saw the face of God", meaning that he became momentarily aware of his possession and the evil of the tattoo, and removed the arm in a heroic and/or desperate attempt to stop MIKE. MIKE may have then misrepresented Gerard's act as being MIKE's own in order to manipulate Cooper and co.

MIKE seems perfectly happy to become one with his arm in the lodge.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:41 am

Jasper wrote:]If we have glyphs in the Owl Cave which include the symbol on the ring and tall man and short man images, as well as legends (told by Hawk) about the Black Lodge, then how does that work with the lodge spirits arriving in the 1950s? Perhaps the lodge was there, and that is where humans (and spirits?) have always met their shadow selves, and BOB, MIKE et al are simply hanging out there... Presumably the cave paintings and the legends shared by Hawk go back hundreds or thousands of years


This. I'm not even sure how much Lynch was aware of the stuff coming out of the mind of people like Harley Peyton late in Season 2. Like Earle's rant about the dugpas. I'm not sure if the story of dugpas was supposed to apply to spirits like MIKE and BOB or something else. Either way it's never mentioned again (for the best since it just repeats Madame Blavatsky's mis-characterization of that Tibetan sect). When Lynch rewrote Episode 29, he threw out stuff like the Hooded Guardian that Major Briggs had been seeing for example. So because of all the different writers and directors, I'm not sure. I didn't really care for the Owl Cave stuff as I felt it was trying to make the mythology a little too physical or literal or something.

I like your idea that the Lodge has perhaps always existed and BOB and MIKE have simply invaded it. The 1950s back story that Engels has dropped bits and pieces of makes NO SENSE to me at all though (even for TP lol!). Like, how does delaying the Inauguration ball to watch I Love Lucy stop time and create some kind of dimensional vortex to allow the Lodge entities to come through? Or did it pull them through against their will, since there's that whole idea of them wanting to return home? What is the deal with MIKE and BOB living originally "living underneath the Formica table" that Engels said in the FWWM documentary on the blu-ray?

OH and, back to the Convenience Store and the Lodge again. Do only BOB and Little MIKE go there then? It seems like in the extended scene, the rest of the entities seen above the Store dissolve or fade into the trees. Except, the next time we hear of Mrs. Tremond and the Grandson, they appear to be physically present (albeit somehow replacing the space-time of whoever's house they are in). Which brings to mind in the script where she says, "Why not be composed of materials and combinations of atoms?" It almost seems like some of them went into the trees, some to the Lodge (and to "fell a victim" or possess people), etc.

If I put on my writing cap, I can imagine that MIKE, while in control of Gerard, had the evil incantation tattoo'd on Gerard's arm. It may actually have been Gerard who...removed the arm...MIKE may have then misrepresented Gerard's act as being MIKE's own in order to manipulate Cooper and co.


Thank you for putting on your writing cap! Those are exactly the kinds of ideas I'm so interested in. That would certainly explain the incongruity. In Episode 13, when Cooper is withholding Gerard's medication, I noticed the Agent asks him, "You know this man [Bob]. Why did you lie to me before?". Gerard, convulsing, looks terrified and answers, "It wasn't me. Don't you understand? It wasn't me?!!" before he makes "the change" to MIKE. That got me thinking--so was MIKE actually in control when Cooper and Harry interviewed way back in Episode 4, and his story about the car accident, his 'Mom' tattoo, his snooping around intensive care because of his friend the veterinarian etc. all a lie to throw the police off his trail? But if so then why did he appear in Cooper's dream looking like Gerard in the first place? I had assumed he did that because, unlike BOB, he wasn't hiding and wanted Cooper to find him. But maybe Cooper seeing MIKE and BOB in his dream was all the LMFAP's doing (linking them all up somehow across the worlds) when he is rubbing his hands with his back turned?

Continuing in Episode 13, MIKE says, "Ah but when I saw the face of God, I was purified." He clearly points to Gerard's nub and says, "I took off the arm. But remained close to this vessel, inhabiting from time to time for one single purpose [to stop Bob]." So...I'm not really sure who is supposed to be doing what when, unless MIKE is, as you suggested, just lying and taking credit for Gerard's actions. Which, if so, poor Gerard--cutting off his own arm and MIKE can still possess him.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Jasper » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:42 pm

STC, you've posed some fantastic, challenging questions which will probably require all of us to put on our thinking/writing caps in order to achieve any level of satisfaction.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:35 pm

Thanks for saying so Jasper! It's all pent up you know? With the release of the Missing Pieces I feel like it's just all pouring out of my mind like a waterfall again.
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby worthit » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:52 am

Yea I really missed these kinds of discussions about Twin Peaks. I'm sorry I can't contribute much (most because of the language barrier), but I'm reading it all and soaking it in!
I have a few ideas of my own too, but don't really know how to express them. Maybe I'll try later :)
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Dalai Cooper » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:51 pm

StealThisCorn wrote:We see BOB's face laughing (in the same lightning as the monkey that whispers Judy) as Jeffries is zapped back to Buenos Aires. Why is BOB teleporting him to Philadelphia and back? I noticed that Argentinian man fearfully asks, “Are you the man?" to Philip and then the next scene has Mike Nelson and Bobby say “Mike IS the man”. Were those deliberately connected?


he's saying "ayudame". Otherwise, I'm afraid I can't help as I find the judy/jeffries/BA stuff not just opaque but uninteresting. Don't get me wrong, I adore those scenes as filmed, but I'd be very glad not to have these hints of worldwide intrigue explored further (if we do end up getting any new peaks material)
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby StealThisCorn » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:12 am

he's saying "ayudame".


Well the closed caption subtitles for that scene show him saying, "Are you the man?!"
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Re: The Buenos Aires/Convenience Store deleted scenes

Postby Jasper » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:47 am

StealThisCorn wrote:
he's saying "ayudame".


Well the closed caption subtitles for that scene show him saying, "Are you the man?!"


Yeah, it's weird. I think it could simply be an error in the subtitling. If one listens closely, it does seem to be ayudame ("Help me"), which certainly makes sense, although I do like the idea of him saying "Are you the man?", with that being mirrored by Bobby and Mike. It does sound very close to "Are you the man?", and that's what I initially thought I heard.

Unfortunately neither line is in the script. I'm going with ayudame, because on close inspection that really does seem to be what he's saying.

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