NON SPOILERS: Twin Peaks: Season 3 on Showtime Thread

Discussion of Twin Peaks TV Series, Fire Walk With Me, and Books

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

Forum rules
Welcome to the forum. We know our members are passionate about their love for all things Twin Peaks. You wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. Despite having differing viewpoints it is a policy that we all treat each other with mutual respect.

Posting abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated, or any material that may violate any laws be it of your country or the country where this forum is hosted will get you permanently banned.

Posting of spoilers are allowed as long as you indicate (Spoilers) in the topic name and use the Spoiler Tag.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 2018
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:35 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Related to all this: I'm rereading Brad's wonderful book throughout my rewatch, and noticed something that I'd forgotten: on page 215, Peyton says the closing scene of Coop absolving Leland was Frost & DKL working "very, very closely," possibly for the last time on the series. That's really interesting to me. I consider myself among the camp that prefers to believe Leland is culpable (albeit in denial), and I also like to believe that FWWM proves that DKL feels the same way. However, Peyton's recollections generally seem pretty reliable. It's an interesting (and for me, slightly unsettling) revelation that DKL may have been more involved in parts of Episode 16 than is generally thought.


I think people have frankly always been too dogmatic about that scene and episode. I think it's very possible Lynch feels you can have both perspectives on the situation being equally valid - Leland's pain and grief and suffering as part of the well-known cycle of abuse as detailed in episode 16, and also his brutal culpability in FWWM.

I certainly can have both. To me they work together, the same way the show and film do. Complementary parts of the same song.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
Agent Earle
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:05 am

N. Needleman wrote:I love the way the clues come together in episode 16. Do they all make fully logical sense, no. Does it tie things up into a beautiful bow from the first season, yes. Is it the last word on what the dream means overall? Of course not, this is David Lynch.

You can have surrealism and the unknowable and also have a level of quasi-schematic which helps Cooper crack the case. To me the gum, diary, etc. is that. Neither approach disdains the other. I love it.



Agreed 100%. That CLASSIC episode is getting shitted on all too often.
Agent Earle
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:55 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Agent Earle » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:11 am

N. Needleman wrote:
I think people have frankly always been too dogmatic about that scene and episode. I think it's very possible Lynch feels you can have both perspectives on the situation being equally valid - Leland's pain and grief and suffering as part of the well-known cycle of abuse as detailed in episode 16, and also his brutal culpability in FWWM.

I certainly can have both. To me they work together, the same way the show and film do. Complementary parts of the same song.


I'd also add, the same way the show and film and true life do.
User avatar
John Justice Wheeler
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:58 pm

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby John Justice Wheeler » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:46 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:For me, turning it into a (rather lame) "clue" cheapens a beautiful Lynch non sequitir. That said, I do agree that Wise's childlike delivery of the line is a thing of beauty. So much of Episode 16 is salvaged for me largely due to Mr. Wise's tremendous talent and brilliant acting choices.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. I've gone off on this one before elsewhere on here so I won't do it again except to say that I think I may dislike it even more than you do. Since it first aired I've disliked that episode rather intensely, save for some moments scattered throughout. But the Roadhouse scene grates my nerves every time I see it. It's such a cheap, easy and rushed way to officially conclude the mystery and as far as I'm concerned a betrayal of the carefully developed intuitive qualities in the series up until that point.
chrisjb
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:11 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby chrisjb » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:55 am

Mugunghwa wrote:Newbie here, I'm sure this has been discussed a bunch of times but I'm curious what you guys think.

As we know, Frank Silva won't be in the new season which remains to be seen if BOB returns. So what actor that has been cast would make a good evil demon replacement?

My pick would be Frank Collinson. A few google images I've seen he has that piercing unnerving look from the eyes the same way Frank had. A little longer hair and I could see him as something of an evil brother to BOB.

I still wish Silva was around to reprise his role but I'm interested to see if Lynch gets creative with whatever "spirits" emerge from the Black Lodge.


I don't suppose this would happen (unless there really are other cast-members that we are deliberately being kept unaware of), but Mark Frost has mentioned before that he is a fan of the TV series Fargo and Zahn McClarnon is a Native American actor who has been compared to BOB in a number of reviews. It's not so hard to imagine that he might have been considered at some stage.

Image
User avatar
krishnanspace
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:15 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby krishnanspace » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:28 am

chrisjb wrote:
Mugunghwa wrote:Newbie here, I'm sure this has been discussed a bunch of times but I'm curious what you guys think.

As we know, Frank Silva won't be in the new season which remains to be seen if BOB returns. So what actor that has been cast would make a good evil demon replacement?

My pick would be Frank Collinson. A few google images I've seen he has that piercing unnerving look from the eyes the same way Frank had. A little longer hair and I could see him as something of an evil brother to BOB.

I still wish Silva was around to reprise his role but I'm interested to see if Lynch gets creative with whatever "spirits" emerge from the Black Lodge.


I don't suppose this would happen (unless there really are other cast-members that we are deliberately being kept unaware of), but Mark Frost has mentioned before that he is a fan of the TV series Fargo and Zahn McClarnon is a Native American actor who has been compared to BOB in a number of reviews. It's not so hard to imagine that he might have been considered at some stage.

Image

That guy from Fargo if dyed grey,would be an excellent BoB
User avatar
Xavi
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:23 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Xavi » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:32 am

N. Needleman wrote:I love the way the clues come together in episode 16. Do they all make fully logical sense, no. Does it tie things up into a beautiful bow from the first season, yes. Is it the last word on what the dream means overall? Of course not, this is David Lynch.

You can have surrealism and the unknowable and also have a level of quasi-schematic which helps Cooper crack the case. To me the gum, diary, etc. is that. Neither approach disdains the other. I love it.


Hmm, we all know that Lynch was forced to reveal the criminal, and thus did not have, I repeat, did not have full artistic freedom. This shows in that episode. So sad.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 2018
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:46 am

Xavi wrote:Hmm, we all know that Lynch was forced to reveal the criminal, and thus did not have, I repeat, did not have full artistic freedom. This shows in that episode. So sad.


That's not the point we're making. The point we're making is regardless of that larger development he wrote the scene with Frost and pitched it to Ray Wise as 'a beautiful thing' - it was a collaboration and it worked.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:53 pm

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:06 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I consider myself among the camp that prefers to believe Leland is culpable (albeit in denial), and I also like to believe that FWWM proves that DKL feels the same way. However, Peyton's recollections generally seem pretty reliable. It's an interesting (and for me, slightly unsettling) revelation that DKL may have been more involved in parts of Episode 16 than is generally thought.


What's weirder is that the town seems to 'forget' Leland's culpability, with the town newspaper headline stating that Leland has been buried and that the community is 'mourning.' Does that mean his crimes were covered up and only the group in the Roadhouse ultimately knew? I doubt the funeral would have been all that well attended had it got out that Leland was a child molesting multiple murderer.
User avatar
Audrey Horne
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The Great Northern

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Audrey Horne » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:07 am

mtwentz wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:Highjacking thread to jump up and down.., I finally met Kyle for the first time last night!

Awesome- did you shake any secrets out of him?


Yeah, he was dying to spill. He just kept rambling on about the whole plot and how revolutionary it will be with the laugh track they're adding... But we can't talk spoilers here. Coop on roller skates is going to be amazing.

Nah. Caught him in NYC at the end of his wine tasting for about fifteen minutes. Completely down to earth, really friendly and my same sense of humor. Talked about his wine process, a mutual friend, nyc, helping on Brad's book, the LA festival of disruption, how the friends I was with met at the fest and he should go. I kept trying to only talk about the wine to be more respectful... But would occasionally say okay, I'm going to dork out now. He was great and looks fantastic. Then his people basically said they have to wrap up the event because it was over. I think I left saying congratulations on his wine and the new season, how happy and excited I was for him... He seemed pretty giddy about it to, and not just being polite fan service. Really great guy.

*also he told me he posts here under the name of Agent Earle... Who knew?!
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
User avatar
Gabriel
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 12:53 pm

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Gabriel » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:29 am

Agent Earle wrote:Agreed 100%. That CLASSIC episode is getting shitted on all too often.

I find myself very torn with it: in one way, it feels like it's too easy, but, then again, Leland Palmer's daughter is murdered, followed shortly after by her lookalike cousin... who is staying with the Palmers. Inevitably, that would make the investigators look at the Palmers.

I also looked, to some extent, on the dream sequence in the red room as a visualisation of Cooper's subconscious thought processes, so the ring dropping to the floor feels like the moment when 'the penny drops,' as the saying goes.

I'll never be sure about the 'exoneration' of Leland, but, as I say, I wonder whether BOB departing Leland's body shifts reality in the town somewhat. The sequence with Cooper and Leland also reminds me of the Laura Dern 'death' scene in Inland Empire.

The episode is a mixed bag. It's an episode which is great viewing the first time, but perhaps, as is the case with a lot of the TV of that period, isn't really intended to be analysed ad nauseum and viewed over and over again... or at least doesn't stand up to multiple viewings the way some of the other episodes do.
User avatar
Audrey Horne
Posts: 1933
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The Great Northern

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Audrey Horne » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:53 am

For me, it's impossible to not be objective about it by not remembering the first time seeing it. It was two weeks after the last episode so it was the first time Peaks went without a weekly episode (in between seasons). The nature in which I watched was scribbling notes on whodunit with all the clues, each week religiously rewatching recorded videotaped episodes again and again. The anticipation of what would, could happen. With the reveal of the murderer three weeks before and the finding of Maddy's body and Cooper telling Audrey to lock her door, it was very exciting for me... There was a sense of beating the clock for the characters and that this arc was wrapping up in a very tense, exciting, explosive way. Then EW released their plot description for the following week's episode... The town attends a wake... Thanks, EW. And there was also a pic in another issue of Leland with the blood in his head, along with Cooper uttering in the teaser with the still of blood on the door window, "call an ambulance." It seems to me I just remembering going into the episode Leland obviously dies and we wrap up Laura.

It didn't help while watching it that it was the first episode there wasn't any Audrey... And I was fully on the Cooper, Audrey best characters on tv train. But even then, I thought the episode was overly self aware, and thought the Roadhouse scene a real misstep spelling out everything in style over substance. I wanted Coooer and the writers to surprise me with his detective skills in the same manner the rock throw surprised me, or finding James' bike in Laura's eyes, or Audrey's cherry stem trick... Peaks in general never really hit those kind of magic rabbit out of a hat tricks again. It just seems straight forward storytelling. (Even though it had mysticism attached to it.) I get it though why so many people love it. And yes, of course Ray Wise is great in it.
God, I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
Dalai Cooper
Posts: 385
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:15 am

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby Dalai Cooper » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:56 am

I like the episode although some of hunter's choices (especially the Dutch angles) make it feel a little cartoonish; then again, the stuff that can be described as hokey tends to be the stuff I like most - the Agatha Christie gathering & invocation of magic, the scooby-doo clue trail. The fact that cooper (+Donna!) is a total passenger in the solution feels subversive & right to me. I get that the back-formed "clues" are too neat, but I've always read that as cooper's post hoc rationalisation of a more pure revelation - he didn't deduce anything, Laura told him.

Similarly, while I find the idea of a total absolution of the abusive father problematic to say the least, I think there's enough in the text to support either interpretation in both this and the next episode: leland is the very definition of an unreliable source, and cooper is also hugely fallible - I consider this to be the point where s2 wrong-about-absolutely-everything failcoop really kicks into gear.
User avatar
teddyleevin
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:53 am
Contact:

Re: NO SPOILERS: Twin Peaks Season 3 on Showtime May 21st 2017

Postby teddyleevin » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:02 am

Audrey Horne wrote:Nah. Caught him in NYC at the end of his wine tasting for about fifteen minutes.

Gosh! My city. And I didn't even know about this! And now I see it was rather easy to make reservations. Such an opportunity may not occur again. How was the wine?

Return to “Twin Peaks Movie, TV, Books”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jonah and 15 guests