The Owl Cave Ring - thematic significance

[harmolodic]

[LostInTheMovies]

Re: Fernanda,

Ah, you've resurrected my deleted topic! I was planning re-post it in a few days when forum visits will be less distracting for me so I'll save thoughts till then. Suffice to say that I'm with you on the need for Laura's journey and the larger mythic canvas to resonate off one another rather than be separate concerns. Not sure about the particulars of this reading but I'll get back to you on that.

I think what fascinates me most about Fire Walk With Me is reconciling it as a holistic work rather than simply a jumble of contrary impulses. Ill save this thought mostly for when I re-post the topic (EDIT: no, looks like I'm going to discuss it in-depth here after all) but I've noticed lately (actually moreso in IMDb than dugpa) that there are two "camps" when it comes to FWWM: those who emphasize the psychological, and those who emphasize the supernatural. The former group tends to be more Lynch fans, while the second tend more toward genre fandom. And it goes to extremes - denying that the spirit world has any real presence in the movie (the "it's all in Laura's head" reading which, even putting the show aside, is not borne out by the film itself) on the one hand, and on the other claiming that FWWM has nothing to do with incest or sexual abuse whatsoever. I once heard someone claim - incorrectly (provably in Lee's case, at least) - that Lynch and Sheryl Lee embraced this aspect only later, to appeal to the "art film" crowd since the film had flopped with series fans. But there are also plenty of people who don't go to the extreme but lean one way in their emphasis and/or consider these aspects of the work to be distinct.

My own instinct is to emphasize the psychological/Laura aspect (WITHOUT, it bears repeating, denying the mythology exists apart from her) for a few reasons: 1) it is the stronger material in the film itself - the Lodge lore is fascinating but it fills out the story rather than provides its backbone whereas Laura's struggles COULD create a compelling narrative all by itself (though Lynch obviously chose not to go this route); 2) in all Lynch stories the architecture of the worlds exists to serve character and theme (and to set the mood for the visuals, although I think the extent to which this is separate from character/theme gets exaggerated) - as FWWM was a passion project more than fanservice his personal vision was obviously in play; 3) when separated from the inexplicable jolt of uncanny surrealism as well as the resonance of Laura's story, a self-sustaining mythology can seem a bit dry and cerebral, something to "figure out" rather than experience. That said, I don't want to fall into this trap of making it either/or which runs so contrary to what Lynch is doing in the film. I'd rather get a better sense of what he's going for, and figure out how it adds up (primary example being how the ring plays into Laura's character arc).

[AgnililaOzwald]

TP is an american myth made by a hindu through an art form largely constructed by a judeo-masonic community that has often interspersed its views into movies with christian themes or symbols as well as native north american ones in american movies.

as mentioned above with buddhist labels, Lynch's work suggests that he would include co-dependent origination within his worldview, one that he has stated is hindu. he has also said he thinks the twin tower attacks involved some sort of cover up so he may well believe in conspiracies.

The owl is most notably a symbol in greek mythology but is also the bird that a major hindu goddess rides and is usually associated with the bohemian club in north american pop culture. there's a scene in a fellini movie in which a character mentions bringing her owl for good luck, for no apparent reason (maybe its apparent to fellini aficionados).

i would suggest that the owl ring is symbolic of a forgotten or unconsciously obscured 'agreement' of passions (which permit transgressions) leading to karmic consequences in a co-dependent interactive web that transcends the time and space experiences of individual personhood.

i also can't help but notice the coincidence of paternal betrayal through incest as a theme right when a major government scandal involving pedophilia emerged.

[LostInTheMovies]

TP is an american myth made by a hindu through an art form largely constructed by a judeo-masonic community that has often interspersed its views into movies with christian themes or symbols as well as native north american ones in american movies.

as mentioned above with buddhist labels, Lynch's work suggests that he would include co-dependent origination within his worldview, one that he has stated is hindu. he has also said he thinks the twin tower attacks involved some sort of cover up so he may well believe in conspiracies.

The owl is most notably a symbol in greek mythology but is also the bird that a major hindu goddess rides and is usually associated with the bohemian club in north american pop culture. there's a scene in a fellini movie in which a character mentions bringing her owl for good luck, for no apparent reason (maybe its apparent to fellini aficionados).

i would suggest that the owl ring is symbolic of a forgotten or unconsciously obscured 'agreement' of passions (which permit transgressions) leading to karmic consequences in a co-dependent interactive web that transcends the time and space experiences of individual personhood.

i also can't help but notice the coincidence of paternal betrayal through incest as a theme right when a major government scandal involving pedophilia emerged.

Slight correction (though feel free to correct me if this is wrong!): I agree with most of this, but I don't think Lynch has stated his views are Hindu. He is a follower of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the Transcendental Meditation movement which is based on Vedic scripture, which is distinct from Hindu traditions (although supposedly the Maharishi discuss Hindu theological aspects of TM in private with adherents - at least I think the deities were Hindu). Again, this is all pretty new to me so I may be off-base, but supposedly the Vedas are not synonymous with Hinduism.

What was the government scandal?

[Jasper]

The Vedas (…) are a large body of texts originating in ancient India. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism. Hindus consider the Vedas to be apauruseya ("not of human agency"). They are supposed to have been directly revealed, and thus are called sruti ("what is heard"), distinguishing them from other religious texts, which are called smriti ("what is remembered"). In Hindu tradition, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma.

(…)

The various Indian philosophies and sects have taken differing positions on the Vedas. Schools of Indian philosophy which cite the Vedas as their scriptural authority are classified as "orthodox" (astika). Other traditions, notably Buddhism and Jainism, which did not regard the Vedas as authorities are referred to by traditional Hindu texts as "heterodox" or "non-orthodox" (nastika) schools. In addition to Buddhism and Jainism, Sikhism and Brahmoism, many non-Brahmin Hindus in South India do not accept the authority of the Vedas. Certain South Indian Brahmin communities such as Iyengars consider the Tamil Divya Prabandham or writing of the Alvar saints as equivalent to the Vedas.

(…)

The Sanskrit word veda "knowledge, wisdom" is derived from the root vid- "to know". This is reconstructed as being derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *ueid-, meaning "see" or "know". (…) The noun is from Proto-Indo-European *ueidos-, cognate to Greek (F)eidoc "aspect", "form" . Not to be confused is the homonymous 1st and 3rd person singular perfect tense veda, cognate to Greek (F)oidcx (w)oida "I know".

[AgnililaOzwald]

I am pretty sure I read an article in which he was quoted as saying "I am a Hindu I guess" but I don't have the article. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong but in any case by virtue of being an adherent of TM he would be very close to Hindu if not actually a Hindu. As for terminology such as Vedic, perhaps a less controversial broader term would be Dharmic. The gods that are referred to in TM include original Vedic gods such as Indra as far as I understand.

The government scandal came to be known as 'the Franklin Scandal' and was first reported in 1989. it was related to a savings and loan scandal but became even more shocking when that investigation also revealed allegations of organized pedophilia within US government circles. I think it is also related to the 'VIP gay escort' story about politicians in Washington dc getting visits from gay prostitutes. I should try and find links to articles. I will post them later if I find some.

[Fernanda]

~

[LostInTheMovies]

The Vedas (…) are a large body of texts originating in ancient India. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism. Hindus consider the Vedas to be apauruseya ("not of human agency"). They are supposed to have been directly revealed, and thus are called sruti ("what is heard"), distinguishing them from other religious texts, which are called smriti ("what is remembered"). In Hindu tradition, the creation of Vedas is credited to Brahma.

(…)

The various Indian philosophies and sects have taken differing positions on the Vedas. Schools of Indian philosophy which cite the Vedas as their scriptural authority are classified as "orthodox" (astika). Other traditions, notably Buddhism and Jainism, which did not regard the Vedas as authorities are referred to by traditional Hindu texts as "heterodox" or "non-orthodox" (nastika) schools. In addition to Buddhism and Jainism, Sikhism and Brahmoism, many non-Brahmin Hindus in South India do not accept the authority of the Vedas. Certain South Indian Brahmin communities such as Iyengars consider the Tamil Divya Prabandham or writing of the Alvar saints as equivalent to the Vedas.

(…)

The Sanskrit word veda "knowledge, wisdom" is derived from the root vid- "to know". This is reconstructed as being derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *ueid-, meaning "see" or "know". (…) The noun is from Proto-Indo-European *ueidos-, cognate to Greek (F)eidoc "aspect", "form" . Not to be confused is the homonymous 1st and 3rd person singular perfect tense veda, cognate to Greek (F)oidcx (w)oida "I know".

Thanks for the clarification, Jasper - I realize I was thinking of the Vedic religion which apparently predates Hinduism (but like I said I'm pretty new to this, so I may be wrong there too). I thought I read somewhere that the Maharishi or current TM admin disclaims roots in Hinduism, focusing on earlier Vedic traditions instead, but not sure why or if that's really the case.

[AgnililaOzwald]

Thanks, I believe the Mararishi originally came from a non-dualist school of Hinduism but he may have tried to distinguish TM from Hinduism proper as it was marketed as a new religion based on a scientific interpretation of Vedic ideas. It may have developed into something bearing more similarity to theosophy with Vedic terms than what is generally practiced as Hinduism. They have their own version of the Bhagavad Gita though, so they are still using a seminal Hindu text as part of their literature.

My understanding (feel free to correct) is that the ancient Vedic religion was primarily based on fire sacrifices akin to what is currently practiced by the Arya Samaj sect but which also included animal sacrifice. Meditation rituals through the use of mantras are seen by some as an internal sacrifice that may not only complement but possibly replace the external fire sacrifice and this may be the case with TM. These rituals (mantra meditation and fire sacrifices) are still part of most Hinduism but a Vedic based 'neo-hindu' sect might not adhere to all of the teachings of Advaita Vedanta found in most Hindu communities. TM clearly believes in using mantras as well as Vedic gods.

If anyone has more details on the TM religion I would be eager to see them posted. I believe many of the details are kept secret from non adherents.

[AgnililaOzwald]

[For an art contest at school Lynch made his first film: an animated 10-second loop that features six heads, which throw up and then catch on fire. He shared first prize. A fellow student, who loved the piece, gave Lynch $1,000 to build a sculpture with a working film loop in it for his living room. After working on it for months and exhausting the money, he discovered that a defect in the camera had produced "one long blur. There weren't even any frame lines." For some reason, he wasn't upset. "It was a very weird thing. I remember thinking I should be depressed." He looks back on this as "fate," the path that led him to filmmaking. Fate and luck are vital concepts for Lynch, who describes himself as "a Hindu, I guess."]

From: http://www.lynchnet.com/nytime90.html

[LostInTheMovies]

Thanks, I believe the Mararishi originally came from a non-dualist school of Hinduism but he may have tried to distinguish TM from Hinduism proper as it was marketed as a new religion based on a scientific interpretation of Vedic ideas. It may have developed into something bearing more similarity to theosophy with Vedic terms than what is generally practiced as Hinduism. They have their own version of the Bhagavad Gita though, so they are still using a seminal Hindu text as part of their literature.

My understanding (feel free to correct) is that the ancient Vedic religion was primarily based on fire sacrifices akin to what is currently practiced by the Arya Samaj sect but which also included animal sacrifice. Meditation rituals through the use of mantras are seen by some as an internal sacrifice that may not only complement but possibly replace the external fire sacrifice and this may be the case with TM. These rituals (mantra meditation and fire sacrifices) are still part of most Hinduism but a Vedic based 'neo-hindu' sect might not adhere to all of the teachings of Advaita Vedanta found in most Hindu communities. TM clearly believes in using mantras as well as Vedic gods.

If anyone has more details on the TM religion I would be eager to see them posted. I believe many of the details are kept secret from non adherents.

Fascinating stuff - thanks.

I wonder if Lynch would describe himself as a Hindu today, given his greater involvement with TM as a movement and their emphasis on dissociating it from a particular religious context.

EDIT: For clarification - not saying Lynch would change his religious beliefs to suit TM's line, just wondering to what extent the "Hindu, I guess" came out of his TM experience and hence may have evolved over time as he got more closely involved with it as a movement and saw it as a more universal thing. Or if any Hindu inclinations were somewhat independent of his meditative practices.

Supposedly there are a lot of Vedic connections in Inland Empire as well - there was something in Greg Olson's book about it but I don't have a copy on hand, sadly...

[AgnililaOzwald]

I don't want to derail the main subject of this thread but I came across this movie on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3W74bwxRDQ

Unfortunately it's not a very flattering depiction of TM. The Hindu Guru in charge of the ashram that Maharishi came out of is interviewed at the end and basically says that TM is not legitimate...sad. Oh well, it's a pretty whacky and interesting phenomenon and it only makes me see Lynch's work with more interest.

It's a German movie with a French translation but there might be an English version somewhere. (apologies if this is already somewhere else in the forum)

yeah, I am also curious about whether Lynch has or had a general interest in Hinduism or if it was strictly in relation to TM. At any rate, in the movie he is clearly very eager to promote/defend TM and that seems to be his main motive for going to India and practicing spirituality.

[LostInTheMovies]

I don't want to derail the main subject of this thread but I came across this movie on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3W74bwxRDQ

Unfortunately it's not a very flattering depiction of TM. The Hindu Guru in charge of the ashram that Maharishi came out of is interviewed at the end and basically says that TM is not legitimate...sad. Oh well, it's a pretty whacky and interesting phenomenon and it only makes me see Lynch's work with more interest.

It's a German movie with a French translation but there might be an English version somewhere. (apologies if this is already somewhere else in the forum)

yeah, I am also curious about whether Lynch has or had a general interest in Hinduism or if it was strictly in relation to TM. At any rate, in the movie he is clearly very eager to promote/defend TM and that seems to be his main motive for going to India and practicing spirituality.

Couldn't find the title on it but looks like this is "David Wants to Fly"? I've been curious to see this and have read a bit about on other sites: general take seems to be that the filmmaker is a bit self-indulgent (it's as much autobiographical as investigative, apparently) but has some interesting info.

I find the whole TM thing pretty fascinating but without any real investment either way in whether it's legit. From what I can gather, if it's a cult it's a pretty soft one: a lot of people go to them to get a mantra and technique and then depart without any pressure to stay. On the other hand, any organization that is charging fees for spiritual teachings automatically rings alarm bells for me. My completley uninformed and therefore worthless suspicion is that most likely, the technique is effective and useful but the organization somewhat suspect as most institutions are. Not Church of Scientology-level though.

[Mb3]

I don't want to derail the main subject of this thread but I came across this movie on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3W74bwxRDQ

Unfortunately it's not a very flattering depiction of TM. The Hindu Guru in charge of the ashram that Maharishi came out of is interviewed at the end and basically says that TM is not legitimate...sad. Oh well, it's a pretty whacky and interesting phenomenon and it only makes me see Lynch's work with more interest.

It's a German movie with a French translation but there might be an English version somewhere. (apologies if this is already somewhere else in the forum)

yeah, I am also curious about whether Lynch has or had a general interest in Hinduism or if it was strictly in relation to TM. At any rate, in the movie he is clearly very eager to promote/defend TM and that seems to be his main motive for going to India and practicing spirituality.

Couldn't find the title on it but looks like this is "David Wants to Fly"? I've been curious to see this and have read a bit about on other sites: general take seems to be that the filmmaker is a bit self-indulgent (it's as much autobiographical as investigative, apparently) but has some interesting info.

You're right it's the documentary David Wants to Fly. You should take the time and watch it. Even though the guy who made the movie got on my nerves a couple of times, I think it's an interesting film.

[AgnililaOzwald]

the parts about the 'King of Germany' are priceless lol