Dopplegangers

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Frketson
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Dopplegangers

Postby Frketson » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:24 pm

From what we've seen in the black lodge, there are the 'spirits' (Bob, Mike, The man from another place, etc.) and there are Dopplegangers. In the last episode Coop goes into the lodge and faces his 'shadow self' and ultimately loses. He is trapped in there while his evil doppleganger escapes. One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

When Lelands doppleganger says 'I did not kill anybody'. For me, I see this as showing how seperate these two entities are. Leland (possessed by Bob) killed Theresa, Laura, Maddy while his doppleganger was stuck in the lodge, you know, chilling, NOT killing people.

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?
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AgnililaOzwald
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby AgnililaOzwald » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:25 pm

Are the dopplegangers supposed to be expansions of the evil spirits who await the fall of human character or are they parts of each human or both? I thought the last mirror scene meant that the evil doppleganger is always a personalized version of an evil spirit possession, that Leland was the doppleganger until he was freed of evil possession at the end. The humans are always unable to fathom the full span of their identity and relationship to past deeds and intentions but does the same hold true for the evil spirits?

How can Bob have a doppleganger? is it a 'good' spirit?
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Maddy
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:32 pm

The word "doppelganger" literally means "double-walker". In German legend (and as it's a german word) it also means that the double walker (also sometimes called ghost walkers) are evil versions of ourselves. after I first watched Twin Peaks, I was fascinated by the subject and researched it. It is believed that if you see your doppelganger (who you'll recognise because they're identical to you- but also like your "evil twin". it is a sign of impending doom/death. I also read one true story of a man who went outside of his house for a walk, while his wife cooked their meal. A couple of minutes later she saw him passing by the window again and frowned as she'd literally just seen him go off the opposite way - she was concerned and went outside, where she saw her husband lying dead and the double walking around the corner in the opposite direction!
It's also believed that every person has a(t least one) doppelganger walking the earth and basicaslly if you run into them and are afraid it'd be like what happened in Twin Peaks to Coop. Ok, BOB wouldn't possess you but the doppelganger could possess your soul. I also believe that Laura and Maddy were doppelgangers and Maddy is the one screaming at the end becasue she wore Laura's wig (twice).
So BOB's dopp I believe would be identical to him like Coop and his. After all, we see Leland's dopp in the black lodge and it looks exactly like him, any dopp does.
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Maddy
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:38 pm

Frketson wrote: One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


Bob posseses the soul of any spirit who lets him in. After he leaves Leland's body he needs another human host to possess in order to continue killing (as explained by Mike in episode 13). He was unable to kill after leaving Leland's body up until the final episode when he decided he wanted to possess Coop. I've always believed the reason he possessed Coop was because Coop was impressed with him (Bob) after he killed Earle.
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Frketson
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Frketson » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:52 pm

Maddy wrote:
Frketson wrote: One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


Bob posseses the soul of any spirit who lets him in. After he leaves Leland's body he needs another human host to possess in order to continue killing (as explained by Mike in episode 13). He was unable to kill after leaving Leland's body up until the final episode when he decided he wanted to possess Coop. I've always believed the reason he possessed Coop was because Coop was impressed with him (Bob) after he killed Earle.


Maddy I love you.

That makes sense to me, also we see Coops doppleganger laughing with Bob when they're in the lodge, so they are probably mates.

Another question I have, and i need to do another rewatch of the show, but is it specified anywhere why Mike/the giant don't really possess anyone and kill? I mean, they want garmonbozia too right?
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:35 pm

Frketson wrote:From what we've seen in the black lodge, there are the 'spirits' (Bob, Mike, The man from another place, etc.) and there are Dopplegangers. In the last episode Coop goes into the lodge and faces his 'shadow self' and ultimately loses. He is trapped in there while his evil doppleganger escapes. One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

When Lelands doppleganger says 'I did not kill anybody'. For me, I see this as showing how seperate these two entities are. Leland (possessed by Bob) killed Theresa, Laura, Maddy while his doppleganger was stuck in the lodge, you know, chilling, NOT killing people.

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


Good question! I talked about this recently with John Thorne and I have to admit before then I never really considered the difference between the idea of "good/evil Coop" and "Bob possesses Coop." It's certainly interesting that Lynch changed the script to reflect the former more than the latter, though he kept the final image of Bob in the mirror (and thank God: whether or not it "makes sense" it is SUCH a powerful moment).

In general, I find Twin Peaks most compelling when the human and spirit worlds are viewed as a Venn diagram rather than as two totally distinct spheres. Especially in light of FWWM there seems to be a bit of give-and-take: the spirits feed off the garmonbozia of the people, but the people also drawn upon the spirits for their own purposes. And just as the spirits are (in Lynch's words) "abstractions given human forms" so the individual lives reflect larger cosmic realities.
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:35 pm

This was a repeat of another post. Admins, feel free to delete!
Last edited by LostInTheMovies on Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:38 pm

Maddy wrote:
Frketson wrote: One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


Bob posseses the soul of any spirit who lets him in. After he leaves Leland's body he needs another human host to possess in order to continue killing (as explained by Mike in episode 13). He was unable to kill after leaving Leland's body up until the final episode when he decided he wanted to possess Coop. I've always believed the reason he possessed Coop was because Coop was impressed with him (Bob) after he killed Earle.


What do you feel Cooper did to let him in? There seem to be interestingly different theories on this: I always assumed it was the fear shown when Bob possesses Windom (is this what you mean by "impressed by") but lately I've heard the reading that Cooper splits much earlier, when he sees Annie/Caroline lying on the floor and that actually when he leaves Bob/Windom behind he is more calm than scared. I'd have to watch it again to see why that wasn't my impression...
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StealThisCorn
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby StealThisCorn » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:57 pm

Regarding the doppelgangers, this confused me for a while as well. I seem to recall that Frank Silva, in a WIP interview before his death, mentioned some aspect of the Red Room as being like "Bob's trophy room". I always got the sense that seeing Leland, Maddy, Laura etc indicated that they were the spirits og tjose Bob has enslaved/destroyed. Or if we take the ending of FWWM as Laura ascending to the White Lodge/Heaven, perhaps it is only the corrupted evil portions of their being that remain in the Room, with the purified good selves moving on. And it seems that Bob has control over and can use these spirits. Or perhaps they are all just psychological projections drawn from Cooper by the Lodge and meant to instill fear, doubt, remind him of his failures etc. to break him down. Recall that Josie, or rather, part of her, was supposed to be in the Red Room as well and that Bob knew all about what happened in Pittsburgh between Cooper, Caroline and Windom.

But when we got the Blu-Ray, we saw on the Atmospheric for Disc 10 that even Bob has a doppelganger (you can see the milky white eyes)! If we assume doppelgangers are the evil shadow selves, it's hard to imagine how it could be even more evil than Bob normally. Also the LMFAP in the series has a doppelganger. I never understood how this was supposed to work.

Also about the Giant, I like the theory that the good spirits feed on love, instead of fear, pain and suffering and that their appearance, stature and mobility is reflective of how well fed they are. Like the Giant is huge because, despite everything, there is more love in Twin Peaks than evil. Mrs. Tremond in the series was bed ridden and on a hunger strike from the corn or something. The Little Man is not strong enough, being only a partial self, to collect his own without Mike or Bobs help. Bob is only afraid of Mike, not even of the Giant, who is known to them, which is interesting. Bob is agile, aggressive and hungry.

Anyways just rambling now, but I saw bits and pieces in the thread to comment on.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby TwinPeaksFanatic » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:00 am

I kind of feel like Bob is the "devil" or overwriting power in the Black Lodge, thus he controls the doppelgangers. Coop offered his soul to save Annie and also was afraid of his doppelganger and tried to run. So I believe it was his doppelganger that escaped, not a true possession. I think he sees Bob in the mirror, because Bob controls the doppelgangers.
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Fernanda » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:02 am

StealThisCorn wrote:Or perhaps they are all just psychological projections drawn from Cooper by the Lodge and meant to instill fear, doubt, remind him of his failures etc. to break him down.


There is a sense that what happens is like a show or a play put together for Cooper with the MFAP as a strange kind of MC, like Club Silencio which was originally shot for the closed ended pilot of MD. When MFAP appears as a doppleganger it could be less about him than about the other characters that are seen from that moment on.

Also, the Venus de Milo disappears just before Cooper stars bleeding.
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chalfont
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby chalfont » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:02 am

Allthough I'm not 100% sure it relates to dopplegangers;
Do you think it's a coinsidence that the show opens and ends with a person looking into a mirror...? (Josie and Coop)
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby harmolodic » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:47 am

chalfont wrote:Allthough I'm not 100% sure it relates to dopplegangers;
Do you think it's a coinsidence that the show opens and ends with a person looking into a mirror...? (Josie and Coop)


Between the opening credits and the opening scene of the pilot, there's so much doubling/twinning (Twin Peaks!) it almost hammers you over the head! Duality is definitely on this show's mind...

Two waterfall streams becoming one, two ducks together and then diverging, two dog figurines, two Josies...

Not coincidental at all.
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BOB1
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby BOB1 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:36 pm

To me making the difference between the concept of "good Coop/ evil Coop (doppleganger)" and the concept of "Coop possessed by BOB" always seemed artificial.
And the idea that the evil doppelganger literally escaped and now runs around the state of Washington while the good Dale sits in the Lodge is absurd. Because in our world there no two different Cooper entities. How was that supposed to be -- suppose the "good Dale" somehow gets freed and leaves the Lodge -- they would be running one after another in our real world the same way as they did in the Lodge? Yyyyyy?

My view is such: there is one Cooper and one anyone. The split of personality which we can perceive as two different persons (one of them a doppleganger with strange eyes) is possible in the Lodge because it is a spiritual world where spiritual things can take a visible form. In the material world there is only one person. Each person has got the good and the evil side. Sometimes the evil takes over full power - for whatever reason, that's a whole different question - and that's what we call a soul possessed by evil (say, BOB). So Cooper saw BOB in the mirror because he was possessed. I was never sure why but as was said above, even if it doesn't quite make sense, what an artistically powerful image it is!
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:58 pm

BOB1 wrote:To me making the difference between the concept of "good Coop/ evil Coop (doppleganger)" and the concept of "Coop possessed by BOB" always seemed artificial.
And the idea that the evil doppelganger literally escaped and now runs around the state of Washington while the good Dale sits in the Lodge is absurd. Because in our world there no two different Cooper entities. How was that supposed to be -- suppose the "good Dale" somehow gets freed and leaves the Lodge -- they would be running one after another in our real world the same way as they did in the Lodge? Yyyyyy?

My view is such: there is one Cooper and one anyone. The split of personality which we can perceive as two different persons (one of them a doppleganger with strange eyes) is possible in the Lodge because it is a spiritual world where spiritual things can take a visible form. In the material world there is only one person. Each person has got the good and the evil side. Sometimes the evil takes over full power - for whatever reason, that's a whole different question - and that's what we call a soul possessed by evil (say, BOB). So Cooper saw BOB in the mirror because he was possessed. I was never sure why but as was said above, even if it doesn't quite make sense, what an artistically powerful image it is!


Very well-put. I agree. I think ;) (ask me again tomorrow...)

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