Dopplegangers

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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:58 am

Hmm, traffic seems to have slowed down on this site this week. Anyway, stumbled across an interesting observation on the alt.tv.twin-peaks board which I don't think I've heard mentioned before - although I'm sure others have noticed it over the years. It regards the similarity between the Lodge sequence in the finale and the surveillance camera in FWWM.

"Doppleganger:
Now, wait a minute:

Does this remind anyone of that business in The Waiting Room during
the last episode, or is it just me?

Let's compare:

Final Episode: Coop's going from room to (nearly identical) room
in The Waiting Room, down that corridor... and this becomes so
confusing (not just to him) that he actually meets himself coming
and going: the doppleganger.

FWWM: Coop tells Gordon he's had a dream [surprise!]. Next: we see
Coop walking from the corridor to the security monitor room, trying
to catch an image of himself in two places at once (why, we don't
know, but it of course has something to do with this dream he's had).

Then: HE DOES IT. Coop looks at Coop in the monitor. Now, besides
this being typical-Lynch - like Senor Droolcup always being the
harbinger of The Giant -- something strange (Coop's trick) followed
but something truly bizzare (in this case, Agent Jeffreys) --

I think it's a keen foreshadowing of the final episode - and a
connection to Annie showing up in Laura's bed talking about "the
good Dale is in the Lodge..."

Considering how everyone and everything in Twin Peaks has its
double - whether it's a physical double (like Laura/Maddy, Leland/
BOB) or a personality double (Donna first and second season)... this
means... what? Comments?

Has Coop been expecting what happened in the final episode... all
along? And because of this, does he think he knows how to get
out of it?

Where does the Blue Rose (Blue book) fit in?"
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:58 am

Duplicate post deleted. Admin can delete this one too.
Last edited by LostInTheMovies on Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Frketson
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Frketson » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:10 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Frketson wrote:From what we've seen in the black lodge, there are the 'spirits' (Bob, Mike, The man from another place, etc.) and there are Dopplegangers. In the last episode Coop goes into the lodge and faces his 'shadow self' and ultimately loses. He is trapped in there while his evil doppleganger escapes. One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

When Lelands doppleganger says 'I did not kill anybody'. For me, I see this as showing how seperate these two entities are. Leland (possessed by Bob) killed Theresa, Laura, Maddy while his doppleganger was stuck in the lodge, you know, chilling, NOT killing people.

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


Good question! I talked about this recently with John Thorne and I have to admit before then I never really considered the difference between the idea of "good/evil Coop" and "Bob possesses Coop." It's certainly interesting that Lynch changed the script to reflect the former more than the latter, though he kept the final image of Bob in the mirror (and thank God: whether or not it "makes sense" it is SUCH a powerful moment).


Agreed.

Between the opening credits and the opening scene of the pilot, there's so much doubling/twinning (Twin Peaks!) it almost hammers you over the head! Duality is definitely on this show's mind...

Two waterfall streams becoming one, two ducks together and then diverging, two dog figurines, two Josies...

Not coincidental at all.


Your post just reminded me of another thought I had, which is I feel like The man from another place and Coop were somehow going to be tied together. In FWWM when Jeffries rocks up at the FBI offices, points to him and says 'who do you think that is there' and the jumping man appears on screen, I find it interesting that (this has probably been stated before, as it seems obvious) the MFAP and Jumping man wear the same clothes, even both have red ties (which the MFAP never wore during the show). There had to have been a reason for showing TJM during that line. Dale has had the most interaction with the MFAP out of all the other lodge spirits and I think that if there were going to be another movie or two after FWWM they would have possibly done something to explore this. I don't know how much they are going to expand on any of the FWWM mythology in the new season (because that was without Frost) but I hope they do because I found it so damn interesting.

And then theres the whole thing with Pierre Tremond having a very similar mask to the jumping mans, and even holding a sling shot and jumping around when Leland leaves the motel.

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS :|
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:49 am

Frketson wrote:I don't know how much they are going to expand on any of the FWWM mythology in the new season (because that was without Frost)


According to Frost, FWWM mythology is "on the table":

"The recent release of Twin Peaks: The Complete Mystery offered a slew of deleted and extended scenes from Fire Walk With Me that pushed that film into some unexpected directions. Have you and David talked about how to juggle the film’s mythology with that of the show and the new revival?

FROST: Well, I think what we’re gonna do is take the whole mythology that we’ve created into consideration, and do the best we can to be faithful to the things that are out there, that, after all, we originally had a lot to do with. Everything’s on the table." (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jacelacob/twin- ... ies-return)

I certainly hope they air FWWM after the re-run S1/S2 episodes on Showtime, otherwise first-time viewers will be missing an essential piece (plus I just think that should always be considered as part of the saga).

As far as meanings, I have a feeling that notions tossed around by Lynch and Engels in '91 during brainstorming sessions won't be given any more credence than any other notions that arise in 2014 (which is why I always kind of scratch my head when people seem married to, for example, the "Judy as Josie's sister" theory, though I may be biased since that idea admittedly does NOTHING for me).
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Maddy
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:56 am

BOB1 wrote:To me making the difference between the concept of "good Coop/ evil Coop (doppleganger)" and the concept of "Coop possessed by BOB" always seemed artificial.
And the idea that the evil doppelganger literally escaped and now runs around the state of Washington while the good Dale sits in the Lodge is absurd. Because in our world there no two different Cooper entities. How was that supposed to be -- suppose the "good Dale" somehow gets freed and leaves the Lodge -- they would be running one after another in our real world the same way as they did in the Lodge? Yyyyyy?

My view is such: there is one Cooper and one anyone. The split of personality which we can perceive as two different persons (one of them a doppleganger with strange eyes) is possible in the Lodge because it is a spiritual world where spiritual things can take a visible form. In the material world there is only one person. Each person has got the good and the evil side. Sometimes the evil takes over full power - for whatever reason, that's a whole different question - and that's what we call a soul possessed by evil (say, BOB). So Cooper saw BOB in the mirror because he was possessed. I was never sure why but as was said above, even if it doesn't quite make sense, what an artistically powerful image it is!


Wow Bob wow! :) I like/get what you're saying - in the real world I see it (what T.P shows as the spiritual world) as a dreamland in which our dopps CAN exist. But in the REAL world, I agree more with what Hawk said about several souls being in existence..."dream souls that wander". Or you can think of it like I do, "one and the same" like the giant and senor droolcup who turned into the same entity but before that were two totally different entities..weren't they?

It also makes me consider Parallel Worlds too.. maybe doppelgangers are sent from Parallel Worlds to destroy the original. Over the years that theory has grown in the media (you also see it in the movie Another Earth - don't know if you have seen that but that made me believe I was thinking along the right lines - not dismissing your theories of course.) And then some of us just believe in the interconnectedness of all things (hence "One and the same") like Laura/Maddy, Leland/BOB etc etc. In fact I've been convinced for some time now (I even had several dreams about this) that Maddy IS Laura's evil doppelganger in episode 29 where she comes running up to the screen screaming. Yes I know ppl are thinking about the hair, but I followed the clues by watching when the MFAP doppel comes laughing "Another friend" and "good" Maddy (or so I thought) comes walking in backwards....it's like why the hell was he laughing so maniacally if she was the "good" one (and she had the white eyes too).

Plus at the start of the scene I think that was the good Laura bc of the "don't be afraid" hand gesture (buddhist) she made to Cooper and at the end you AGAIN see the evil LMFAP followed by what appears to be an evil Laura, but then I thought about it and it's obvious she was wearing a REALLY bad wig (ok not her fault lol) but I had loads of dreams after that of Laura being good and standing making the sign of the cross and trying to get rid of Maddy bc Maddy was the one who wanted to kill her. At one point in my dream she ripped the wig off and came running up to the screen with the black hair doing the same thing. I even though "hey she's wearing the same wig from episode 7." I also read the book "Critical Approaches to Twin Peaks" and the Laura/Maddy dopp connection is discussed in there too.

Anyhoo, I think regardless of who it is there's always m ore dopps than one because of the interconnectedness of all and eventually the one that's supposed to win, will. (Whichever Coop, BOB or Laura it is etc). I do think the bad Coop caught the good Coop at the end though bc of how afraid the good Coop was when they started chasing one another through the rooms. :P
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HoodedMatt
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby HoodedMatt » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:05 am

If Doppelgangers are limited to only the spiritual realm and Cooper, rather than being split into Good and Evil selves, is merely posessed by BOB, how does this gel with what is presented in FWWM, that "Good Cooper is still in the Lodge"?
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Maddy
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:39 am

Because, as The One Armed Man explained in episode 13, BOB requires a human host. (At the end of that ep. when they first figure out he & Philip Gerard are one). This, to BOB means he has to find someone he can stalk and then open the portal into their bodies and possess their soul. (Well that's the way it spoke to me anyway). Think about it - we all have a good side and a bad side. If BOB taps into that in the black lodge, he can own and possess Coop like he did with Leland. Leland said, when he was a little boy, he met BOB who flicked matches at him who also said "do you want to play with fire little boy?" (meaning to you want to mess with BOB?).
When Cooper figured out what the letters under the fingernails meant - ROBT - they were spelling out Robert (his full name) as in the original European pilot. The people BOB inhabited were his "children" as Coop said. Even knowing all this, he still took it upon himself to go into the Black Lodge when the portal opened, knowing full well if he was afraid of BOB (as Hawk told him) it would "utterly annihilate his soul".
He was able to possess Coop only because Coop must have invited him. (Which is also what he did with Leland- Leland says "he was opened up and BOB came inside him" (or words to that effect). Back to ep.29, I personally think Coop (good Coop) was pleased he had killed Windom Earle because of the fact he said "give me your soul". As we remember, at that instant, BOB showed Coop him killing his enemy. Most ppl would be pleased with someone doing that, even if they didn't admit it. So I think that's why he (Coop) could have invited BOB into his soul, even if subconsciously aware of it. When he'd left the room, his evil dopp was brought into it by BOB and they were planning how to end "good" Coop. When good Coop saw bad Coop at the opposite end of the room, he ran because he knew he was afraid and if he didn't get out it WOULD utterly annihilate his soul. You can tell by the way the train music speeds up at the end - at one point it gets so fast when the Coop's are chasing each other you can't tell who's who! I think it's meant to be that way too. :lol: Good Coop was meant to be in the lodge anyway because he was the one who got afraid and ran away which is why the evil one got out in his body. Good Coop is still stuck there until he finishes doing his work helping Laura and the other lodge spirits he is/was supposed to help and finding out all the relevant information he neeeded before he returns in TP series 3 (will be interesting to see how he gets out of the lodge?!)
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:45 pm

Maddy wrote:He was able to possess Coop only because Coop must have invited him. (Which is also what he did with Leland- Leland says "he was opened up and BOB came inside him" (or words to that effect). Back to ep.29, I personally think Coop (good Coop) was pleased he had killed Windom Earle because of the fact he said "give me your soul".


Much of that works for me (although I think Cooper makes a lot of other bad moves in the Lodge too). But I think when he sees his doppelganger his mistake is to turn away and eventually, to run. The "dweller on the threshold" lore that Hawk speaks of (which is also, perhaps inadvertently, echoed in FWWM) states that you have to face the shadow self without fear. And we know that Bob preys upon fear. I think it's Cooper's fear of the doppelganger that allows the doppelganger to catch him and trap him in the Lodge. I also don't think good Coop could have outrun bad Coop. They keep passing through room after room, hallway after hallway...there's no way out of this space unless you overcome it or are overcome yourself. That's my take on it, anyway!
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Mibbler » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:19 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:Much of that works for me (although I think Cooper makes a lot of other bad moves in the Lodge too). But I think when he sees his doppelganger his mistake is to turn away and eventually, to run.


I think Cooper is, at the same time, intentionally cheated by BOB when he says to him "You, go", as if he was saying "You have nothing more to do here: I have Windom´s soul, the man who has driven you to this place, so there´s no need for you to stay here any more". Anyway, I suppose that´s the first thing that came to the mind of a lot of viewers then (including me :wink: )
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Jasper » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:15 pm

Maddy wrote:Plus at the start of the scene I think that was the good Laura bc of the "don't be afraid" hand gesture (buddhist) she made to Cooper


You mean this? I haven't seen any broad agreement about what it is. Some people have said it means tree, or this or that. Can you provide a source where I can check out the Buddhist thing?

Image
Image

That evil Laura still gives me chills. :lol:
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:54 pm

Jasper wrote:
Maddy wrote:Plus at the start of the scene I think that was the good Laura bc of the "don't be afraid" hand gesture (buddhist) she made to Cooper


You mean this? I haven't seen any broad agreement about what it is. Some people have said it means tree, or this or that. Can you provide a source where I can check out the Buddhist thing?

Image
Image

That evil Laura still gives me chills. :lol:


Someone on an alt.tv thread noted the similarity to Shiva:

Image
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Jasper
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Jasper » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:43 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:Someone on an alt.tv thread noted the similarity to Shiva:


Hm. I can't say that I find that very convincing. I find the sign language for tree somewhat more convincing, but I'm not at all sold on that either.

Image

Then there's this (upper right). I'm not convinced. There's nothing definitive as far as I'm concerned, though I certainly like the idea of it being "tree" or "Do not fear."

Image

It always seemed kind of like she was displaying some sort of invisible object, like a salesperson displaying a bottle of perfume...maybe even at a perfume counter.

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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Ygdrasel » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:53 am

Frketson wrote:From what we've seen in the black lodge, there are the 'spirits' (Bob, Mike, The man from another place, etc.) and there are Dopplegangers. In the last episode Coop goes into the lodge and faces his 'shadow self' and ultimately loses. He is trapped in there while his evil doppleganger escapes. One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

When Lelands doppleganger says 'I did not kill anybody'. For me, I see this as showing how seperate these two entities are. Leland (possessed by Bob) killed Theresa, Laura, Maddy while his doppleganger was stuck in the lodge, you know, chilling, NOT killing people.

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


My view has always been that the Dopplegangers are not actual entities. They're just illusions conjured up by the Lodge to break the humans that enter. The ones who break are susceptible to possession by Bob.
Twin Peaks has layers, man. Twin Peaks is an onion. 8)
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Maddy
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Maddy » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:46 pm

Yes, I totally am getting your point. :wink:
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Pöllö
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Re: Dopplegangers

Postby Pöllö » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:12 am

Ygdrasel wrote:
Frketson wrote:From what we've seen in the black lodge, there are the 'spirits' (Bob, Mike, The man from another place, etc.) and there are Dopplegangers. In the last episode Coop goes into the lodge and faces his 'shadow self' and ultimately loses. He is trapped in there while his evil doppleganger escapes. One thing that has always confused me, is why his reflection in the bathroom is of Bob. Was that just an easy way to show the audience that this Dale was evil? Or does Bob have some sort of control/influence over this Doppleganger? (or maybe ALL of them)

When Lelands doppleganger says 'I did not kill anybody'. For me, I see this as showing how seperate these two entities are. Leland (possessed by Bob) killed Theresa, Laura, Maddy while his doppleganger was stuck in the lodge, you know, chilling, NOT killing people.

Does anyone have any theories, or any more info on any of this?


My view has always been that the Dopplegangers are not actual entities. They're just illusions conjured up by the Lodge to break the humans that enter. The ones who break are susceptible to possession by Bob.

I think this is the best explanation. It doesn't really make any sense that Bob would possess or take over the evil 'doppelganger'. Although, where is good Coop then if it is just a mere illusion? How can he be saved?
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