Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

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Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:09 pm

This subject has come up before (particularly in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2664 and also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2578&start=75) but as I move forward on my FWWM video, last part of Journey Through Twin Peaks, I'm wondering if anyone has further thoughts on these connections. As always, I will include direct citations for any ideas I mention explicitly, and thanks in the credits for anyone who leads me in a certain direction. I'm not very familiar with these traditions myself; the main thing I've been able to glean is an interesting link between the Maharishi's characterization of soma and Lynch's depiction of garmonbozia. I would also like to know if anyone can provide direct reference to the soma thing (discovered during the Kropinski trial of '86-'87) as I can only find accounts of it (including a transcript) on anti-TM websites. While I doubt they made up the testimony, it would still be nice to find a more objective presentation of it.

It's of course harder to trace the impact of the Vedas than of Theosophy because Lynch has been far less vocal on the former subject than Frost has on the latter and (perhaps consequently) fewer people have discussed it. Martha Nochimson's book David Lynch Swerves reads Lynch's films using quantum physics and Vedic literature, but emphasizes the quantum stuff much more strongly than the Vedas, and doesn't dwell much on FWWM at any rate. It's more focused on his final 4 films (though she's since stated that she now sees FWWM more as the beginning of his second stage than the end of his first).

Fire away.
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby Jasper » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:20 pm

I pretty much tapped myself out when we first went into this subject. Now this is really reaching, but it's fun finding little parallels between TP and legends like these, even if it's mostly or completely unintentional. I saved this stuff a little while back. I think it may all be on wikipedia. Enjoy!

A Rakshasa is an unrighteous spirit from Hindu mythology. As mythology made its way into other religions, the rakshasa was later incorporated into Buddhism. Rakshasas are also called maneaters (Nri-chakshas, Kravyads). A female rakshasa is known as a Rakshasi. A female Rakshasa in human form is a Manushya-Rakshasi.

(…)

Their literary origins can be traced to Vedic sources (…) Here they are classified amongst the Yatudhanas, demonic creatures who consume the flesh of the humans.

(…)

Description
Rakshasa were most often depicted as ugly, fierce-looking and enormous creatures and with two fangs protruding down from the top of the mouth as well as sharp, claw-like fingernails. They are shown as being mean, growling like beasts and as insatiable cannibals who could smell the scent of flesh. Some of the more ferocious ones were shown with flaming red eyes and hair, drinking blood with their palms or from a human skull (similar to vampires in later Western mythology). Generally they could fly, vanish, and had Maya (magical powers of illusion), which enabled them to change size at will and assume the form of any creature.

In Hindu epics
In the world of the Ramayana and Mahabharata, Rakshasas were a populous race. There were both good and evil rakshasas, and as warriors they fought alongside the armies of both good and evil. They were powerful warriors, expert magicians and illusionists. As shape-changers, they could assume different physical forms, and it was not always clear whether they had a true or natural form. As illusionists, they were capable of creating appearances which were real to those who believed in them or who failed to dispel them. Some of the rakshasas were said to be man-eaters, and made their gleeful appearance when the slaughter on the battlefield was at its worst. (…) the epic tells the stories of certain members of the race who rose to prominence, some of them as heroes, most of them as villains.

In the Ramayana
The Battle of Lanka pitted an army of Rakshasas under Ravana against an army of Vanaras or monkeys under Rama and Sugriva.

Ravana, a Rakshasa with ten heads, was the King of the Rakshasas and the mortal enemy of Rama, the hero of the Ramayana. (…) the Sage Markandeya recounts the story of how Ravana kidnapped Rama's wife Sita and whisked her off to his stronghold Lanka, and how Rama, aided by the monkey King Sugriva and his army of monkeys, laid siege to Lanka, slew Ravana, and rescued Sita.

(…)

In the Mahabharata
The Pandava hero Bhima was the nemesis of forest-dwelling Rakshasas who dined on human travellers and terrorized human settlements.

(…)

Bakasur was a cannibalistic forest-dwelling Rakshasa who terrorized the nearby human population by forcing them to take turns making him regular deliveries of food, including human victims.

(…)

Kirmira, the brother of Bakasur, was a cannibal and master illusionist. He haunted the wood of Kamyaka, dining on human travellers.

(…)

Alamvusha was a Rakshasa skilled at fighting with both conventional weapons and the powers of illusion. (…) Alamvusha was able to kill Iravan (…) when the Rakshasa used his powers of illusion to take on the form of Garuda. [The Garuda is a large mythical bird, bird-like creature, or humanoid bird that appears in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology.]

(…)

Rakshasas in Buddhist lore
Theravada Buddhist literature
In the Maha Samaya Sutta, the defeated antagonist of the Buddha, Mara also known as Namuci or the "Dark One" is described as a corrupted Asura whose army consisted of "Sensual passions, Discontent, Hunger and Thirst, Craving, Sloth and Drowsiness, Terror, Uncertainty, Hypocrisy and Stubbornness, Gains, Offerings, Fame and Status wrongly gained, and whoever would praise self and disparage others”.


There's this as well:

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_(demon)

Death

Kali dies one-third of the way through the Kalki Purana. During the decisive battle between Kali and Kalki’s armies, Kali tried to face both Dharma and Satya Yuga personified, but was overwhelmed and fled on his donkey because his chariot had been destroyed, leaving his owl-crested war flag to be trampled on the battlefield. Kali retreated to the citadel of his capital city of Vishasha where he discovered his body had been mortally stabbed and burned during his battle with the two devas. The stench of his blood billowed out and filled the atmosphere with a foul odor. When Dharma and Satya burst into the city, Kali tried to run away, but, knowing his family had been destroyed, coupled with his grievous wounds, he "entered his unmanifested years".[4] This might lead some to believe he died, but one version of the Kalki Purana in the book The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology states Kali does not die but, instead, escapes through time and space to live in the Kali Yuga of the next Kalpa. The author comments, "Unlike most battles between gods and demons, however, this apparent victory is immediately undercut, for Kali escapes to reappear in 'another age'—in our age, or the next Kali Age."[21] Since he had the power to manifest himself in human form on earth, he was able to forsake his dying corporal form to escape in spirit.

(…)

here are a number of connections and similarities between Kali and Alakshmi. First and foremost, Alakshmi’s sister is the consort of Lord Vishnu, who sent his Kalki avatar to earth to defeat Kali.[25] Second, legends say she was born either from the churning of the ocean of milk, the poison from Vasuki (who helped churn the ocean) or the back of Prajapati.[25][26] As previously mentioned, Kali is said to have been born from the halahala poison created from churning the ocean or from a lineage created from Lord Brahma’s back.[2][4] Third, Alakshmi takes the form of an owl.[25] Kali's emblem on his war flag is of an owl.[4] Fourth, whenever Alakshmi enters a house, families fight and turn on one another."
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:58 pm

The Rakshasha connection is pretty solid, I think. Martha Nochimson mentions in her book that Lynch talked about them, and that she thinks Bob and the Mystery Man are Rakshashas. I haven't pursued that thread much yet (maybe because the description I read/saw of them as tigers threw me off the scent), but I also haven't read the Ramayana. I perused some descriptions last week, but I didn't draw the connection between the monkey in FWWM & the monkey army in Ramayana until reading what you just posted. Hmmm...

In Catching the Big Fish, or at least an article Lynch wrote to promote the book, he specifically cites the Ramayana: "The Truth upholds the fragrant Earth and makes the living water wet. Truth makes fire burn and the air move, makes the sun shine and all life grow. A hidden truth supports everything. Find it and win."
(http://www.utne.com/community/deepthoug ... z3Ojl0ySP4)

And just now, searching for that quote, I discovered that he also spoke at an event citing the Ramayana as a "blueprint for our body and the entire universe": http://www.newparadigmtour.org/emailing/2012_05_20.html

Really, it would probably be good to read the Ramayana as well, but I have to draw the line somewhere or else this video will never appear haha...

Even as I write this, though, I am feeling the pull. :/
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:19 am

Recently re-read the alleged transcript for the Kropinsky case...I say alleged because the only copy I can find is on a strongly anti-TM website which uses anonymous sources; given the way it reads I'm 99.999% sure that it is from an actual court reporter and not somebody's imagination but it would be nice to have better verification than that. Anyway...

According to the transcript the Maharishi never actually says anything specifically about soma being generated in meditators' bellies. It could be inferred because he's talking about digestive systems and making analogies to cows eating grass and producing milk but the whole "gods feeding on TMer's bellies" thing now seems to me a bit of a stretch based on what he actually said (that and the fact that the whole talk is pretty vague).

Here's the transcript (again, with word of warning that I can't verify its authenticity): http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/secr ... oma2.shtml

Anyway, whether or not the stomach thing is as analogous to FWWM as I thought, the soma-garmonbozia link still seems strong to me. Having recently read selections from the Rig Veda, soma (they also talk quite a bit about butter as a sacrificial offering) - a yellow ambrosia sacrificed in fire - feels pretty closely linked to the function of garmonbozia in the film.
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:54 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:And just now, searching for that quote, I discovered that he also spoke at an event citing the Ramayana as a "blueprint for our body and the entire universe": http://www.newparadigmtour.org/emailing/2012_05_20.html


Here's a Lynch quote about the Ramayana (or rather Tony Nader's book on the Ramayana):

"Such great thanks go to Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam who, with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s guidance, proves without a doubt that the Ramayan is not just a fanciful story from the past – nor a myth. Maharaja Adhiraj Rajaraam shows that this story is always alive in the Eternal Field of Consciousness – The Absolute – The Unified Field of all the Laws of Nature – and that this story with all its characters – happenings – details – is alive and being unfolded in each and every human being." -David Lynch, Filmmaker
from http://www.mumpress.com/books/other-authors/r05.html

Preview of the book here: http://www.mumpress.com/ramayan/

Which is about as close as I'm getting to reading a title that goes for $108!
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:01 am

One thing I would be curious to know: to what extent was Lynch familiar with Hindu scripture in 1991? I know he'd been practicing TM since 1973 or so but reading some recent articles it seems that his full-throttle involvement with TM as a movement didn't really begin until around 2001, when he attended a retreat conducted by Maharishi via video.

Another interesting note: from reading the sample I just posted, it seems (as I suspected) that when TM refers to "the Vedas" they do NOT just mean the original Vedic scriptures like the Rig Veda, etc. but also later interpretations like the Upanishads and epic poems like the Bhagavad Gita (from the larger Mhabharat) and Ramayan. So when Lynch speaks of Vedic literature he is most likely referring to all of these sources.
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby Jasper » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:23 am

Here's something interesting.

In the Red Room we have a Saturn lamp (and a Venus statue, and even a red dwarf). It's said that the Black Lodge opens up when Jupiter and Saturn meet. Jupiter is a very interesting word. The Roman god Jupiter derives from the Greek god Zeus Pater (say this quickly and you'll see how you get Jupiter). Zeus, in fact, comes from a long line of deities going back many thousands of years to Proto-Indo-European societies and their (reconstructed) chief deity, the sky god Dyeus. It should be easy to see how the name connects to Zeus. There are many other gods (or words related to divinity) connected to Dyeus (as a god), the name of Dyeus, or the related word deiwos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus

As you know, almost 4000 years ago, Indo-Aryans (an offshoot of the larger Indo-Iranian language group, itself a part of the larger Indo-European language group) migrated into Northern India. They carried with them this already ancient deity, and their religion evolved into (or was codified as) the Vedic religion. Here the god is known as Dyaus Pita.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyaus_Pita
literally "Sky Father" is the ancient sky god of Vedic pantheon, husband of Prithvi and father of Ushas (Dawn), Ratri (night) and the chief deities.

Though he's not mentioned very much in the Vedas, he is the father of Indra, renowned drinker of Soma.

So, whether it's intentional or not, there's a bit of a connection between the lodge, Jupiter, the Vedas, and Indra/Soma.
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:20 pm

I'm thinking some time in the next few months I will do a (written) post about intriguing parallels with Vedic literature. Less from the "Lynch was going for this" angle, of course, than the "isn't this interesting?" type of thing. I looked about a bit more about Hanuman (the divine monkey) in the Ramayana and felt like it maybe clarified a few things about both Fire Walk With Me and Inland Empire. Apparently Lynch loves the Ramayana - I've seen him comment on/quote it possibly more than any other Hindu texts (although he also cites the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita on several occasions - I haven't seen him explicitly reference the Rig Veda yet).

In my video I ended up reducing the whole topic quite a bit, partly for time constraints and also because some of it is difficult to visualize. I will be focusing more on the Hindu mysticism than the rituals - as I think that's more where Lynch's own interests lay and it dovetails more with the culmination of the series. That said, the soma-garmonbozia link still seems very compelling to me. I don't have any idea if he knew about the Maharishi's interpretation in 1992, but even just as described textually, both the look and function of soma seems quite similar to the creamed corn.

There's also a story in the Rig Veda about Surya (daughter of the sun, who shares her name but for a slight accent) marrying Soma, who is personified as the moon. He takes her to a place beyond earth, which features red, gold, and wood, and preserves him from other suitors and divinities. Incidentally, incest is used as a metaphor numerous times throughout the Rig Veda.

Even if I don't end up doing an analytical post, I will definitely share particular passages that caught my interest. There is also a verse in the Rig Veda about two birds, one who eats, the other who watches. This verse is repeated several times, and explicitly linked to the ego and the higher Self, in the Upanishads. It makes me think of the bird at the end of Blue Velvet with the bug in its mouth, followed by the more disengaged bird as the first image of Twin Peaks.
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby OK,Bob » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:01 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:One thing I would be curious to know: to what extent was Lynch familiar with Hindu scripture in 1991?

Looking forward to future posts!

I'm reminded of one of Lynch's earliest and most explicit nods to Hinduism, at the very end of the Ronnie Rocket script. [Where we encounter Hiranyagarbha, the "cosmic egg" from which a universe is born]:

The egg appears in a room now. The room has an ocean for a
floor. In the room many tiny golden eggs float. A small girl
sits on her father's lap. We see the strangely beautiful girl
but the father's back is to us.

LITTLE GIRL
Father . . . when will all the new uni-
verses be born?

FATHER
Soon . . . and when they are I'm going
to get you a great big chocolate to cele-
brate!

LITTLE GIRL
Oh Father . . . really?

She hugs him. And as they get up to leave . . .

We move with one little golden egg across the room to a blue
lady with four arms who is doing a strange dance on a lilly pad.
One arm stops dancing and reaches out. A finger touches the
one little golden egg. The woman smiles and laughs.

BLUE WOMAN
Ronnie Rocket!
"OK, Bob. OK, BOB. OK." -Audrey Horne
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby LostInTheMovies » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:41 pm

OK,Bob wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:One thing I would be curious to know: to what extent was Lynch familiar with Hindu scripture in 1991?

Looking forward to future posts!

I'm reminded of one of Lynch's earliest and most explicit nods to Hinduism, at the very end of the Ronnie Rocket script. [Where we encounter Hiranyagarbha, the "cosmic egg" from which a universe is born]:

The egg appears in a room now. The room has an ocean for a
floor. In the room many tiny golden eggs float. A small girl
sits on her father's lap. We see the strangely beautiful girl
but the father's back is to us.

LITTLE GIRL
Father . . . when will all the new uni-
verses be born?

FATHER
Soon . . . and when they are I'm going
to get you a great big chocolate to cele-
brate!

LITTLE GIRL
Oh Father . . . really?

She hugs him. And as they get up to leave . . .

We move with one little golden egg across the room to a blue
lady with four arms who is doing a strange dance on a lilly pad.
One arm stops dancing and reaches out. A finger touches the
one little golden egg. The woman smiles and laughs.

BLUE WOMAN
Ronnie Rocket!


I was going to type "LOL, you had me for a second" and then...I googled "Ronnie Rocket script." Wow.

a) I love that this is actually how the script ends. b) How did I not know the Ronnie Rocket script was out there in circulation until now?!?! Looks like I have some reading to do...
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby OK,Bob » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:33 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:I was going to type "LOL, you had me for a second" and then...I googled "Ronnie Rocket script." Wow.

a) I love that this is actually how the script ends. b) How did I not know the Ronnie Rocket script was out there in circulation until now?!?! Looks like I have some reading to do...


Enjoy! Sorry that I spoiled the ending!
"OK, Bob. OK, BOB. OK." -Audrey Horne
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Re: Vedic/Hindu influence on FWWM

Postby OK,Bob » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:35 pm

LostInTheMovies wrote:How did I not know the Ronnie Rocket script was out there in circulation until now?!?! Looks like I have some reading to do...

There are two versions of the script kicking around; the earlier one, "Ronny Rocket" with a 'y', lacks the Blue Woman in the final scene, but does include this exchange, which should ring a bell or two:

GIRL
I got idea, man...you take me for a
walk ( she moves closer to the guy)
under the sycamore trees (closer)
the dark trees that blow, baby. In
the dark trees I'll see you and you'll
see me...I'll see you in the branches
that blow in the breeze...I'll see you
under the trees.

GUY
I'll twist your neck.

GIRL
NO, NO, NO, NO you won't...I'll
run away from you.

GUY
I'll catch you...I'll catch you
in the dark trees and kill you.

GIRL
NO, NO, NO
"OK, Bob. OK, BOB. OK." -Audrey Horne

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