Beyond Season 3?

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FrightNight
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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LostInTheMovies wrote: Depends what you mean by "expanding the initial premise." Lynch has been quite explicit, over and over again, about Laura's ongoing mystery being necessary to sustain the story, even if it was hovering in the background.
Fair enough. Even if the mystery of Laura's killer wouldn't have been resolved when it was, I still say the show would be better off going in numerous other directions - I mean, why create that vast landscape of bizarre characters and that underlying mythology somehow connecting them all if you don't mean to explore it thoroughly beyond that initial cataclysmic event. We already had this discussion once before and I specifically told you then that I get Lynch's original plan to use what happened to Laura as the soil from which other mysteries will grow (ie. I know that what he meant by "continuing the story" was not beginning, dealing with and concluding one "case", so to speak, and then proceeding to another and so on and so on, in some mechanic, Murder, She Wrote-kind of fashion). And what I'm suggesting now with the possibility of further seasons is not that all that went on before (with Laura and Cooper) should simply be discarded and forgotten just so we can have "the next sensation of the month" to gloat over - why can't its past concerns still be very relevant, "hovering in the background", as you aptly put it, while the show is taking us down new avenues with some of the same and some different characters?

Because his show had been cancelled. Of course he was embittered. Why does this preclude him ALSO being bitter about the post-Laura direction of the show? Is it not at all significant to you that he blamed "it croak[ing] when it did" specifically ON "where the show went after the Palmer thing was resolved"?

I'm having trouble following your train of thought here, frankly. It's 100% established fact that Lynch does not like the direction the show took after the mystery ended. Do I really have to dig up the dozens of quotes to that effect to prove my point? C'mon.
My argument's really not that hard to understand: I'm simply saying that, YES, Lynch didn't like the show's latter direction, but he still WANTED TO PROCEED WITH IT.
That, btw, brings us to a couple of interesting questions/matters/points of discussion, so I'll allow myself a digression: 1) I don't remember ever being satisfyingly explained once and for all what was it that drove Lynch out of the TP orbit when it was alive and spinning, when he still had some power to take the series in the direction he felt was right, even if the suits have forced the killer's revelation out of him? People keep saying he was "off filming Wild at Heart", but the chronology really doesn't add up, 'cause Wild at Heart premiered after the S 1 had concluded and before S 2 had even begun. So there had to be other reasons for his fallout in that crucial time when the show he helped to create needed him the most. 2) Lynch's wishes for the show to continue past S 2 imply that he was feeling strongly that the story needs to go on, even with its major mystery basically done and over with and even in that time's decidedly auteur-inhospitable TV landscape. That means he was (once again?) willing to engage in the show's day-to-day logistics even if "his" show was botched and the suits have dragged his creative vision through the mud. How he'll salvage the wreck that the majority of fans seems to think the show became in its latter stages I guess we'll get to see, but what will forever remain a mystery is just how Lynch was planning to handle that day's network limitations that damaged the show once before - and they were still in full swing when S 3 would originally air.

What's clear is that it's incredibly important to Lynch to have direct control and direct involvement with Twin Peaks, and that it's very important to both Lynch and Frost to stick to a specific narrative trajectory without committing themselves to an ongoing show beyond that trajectory. If they can come up with material for new seasons that fits into those concerns, then perhaps we'll see more. If they can't, then we won't. Everything else is basically wishful thinking.
Yeah. And so was the show's continuation basically a "wishful thinking" of some of us isolated fan nutcases for friggin' decades prior to 2014 - I could find you a number of quotes even on this message board of diehards saying TP is better off "finished" as it is and not risking its reputation as this one-off wonder being tarnished. And look where we are now ... And I'm really not seeing any fan petitions demanding of Lynch and Frost to leave well alone, so that fans could have their perfect bubble of a show preserved as it is for all eternity.
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DeerMeadowRadio
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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FrightNight wrote: Depends what you mean by "expanding the initial premise." Lynch has been quite explicit, over and over again, about Laura's ongoing mystery being necessary to sustain the story, even if it was hovering in the background

My argument's really not that hard to understand: I'm simply saying that, YES, Lynch didn't like the show's latter direction, but he still WANTED TO PROCEED WITH IT.
That, btw, brings us to a couple of interesting questions/matters/points of discussion, so I'll allow myself a digression: 1) I don't remember ever being satisfyingly explained once and for all what was it that drove Lynch out of the TP orbit when it was alive and spinning, when he still had some power to take the series in the direction he felt was right, even if the suits have forced the killer's revelation out of him? People keep saying he was "off filming Wild at Heart", but the chronology really doesn't add up, 'cause Wild at Heart premiered after the S 1 had concluded and before S 2 had even begun. So there had to be other reasons for his fallout in that crucial time when the show he helped to create needed him the most. .
It seems that Lynch's disengagement/dissatisfaction with the second season had more to do with Mark Frost being off filming Storyville than Lynch filming WAH, which as you say more impacted his involvement with the first season. From what I gather Harley Peyton pretty much slotted in to Frost's position as showrunner and DL and HP did not have the history that Lynch and Frost had... and there were some "issues" between the two. I don't think there a lot of specifics on the problems they had but HP has brought up an example or two in interviews (he speaks pretty candidly), whereas with Lynch you have to more read between the lines. I don't remember him ever even mentioning HP by name.

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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DeerMeadowRadio wrote:It seems that Lynch's disengagement/dissatisfaction with the second season had more to do with Mark Frost being off filming Storyville than Lynch filming WAH, which as you say more impacted his involvement with the first season. From what I gather Harley Peyton pretty much slotted in to Frost's position as showrunner and DL and HP did not have the history that Lynch and Frost had... and there were some "issues" between the two. I don't think there a lot of specifics on the problems they had but HP has brought up an example or two in interviews (he speaks pretty candidly), whereas with Lynch you have to more read between the lines. I don't remember him ever even mentioning HP by name.
I doubt that personal issues with Peyton were that huge a factor for Lynch. Presumably, as co-show runner, he could have simply placed his buddy Bob Engels in charge (officially or unofficially, simply by calling Engels and asking for the same things Peyton was refusing him).

I think you're right, though, that a huge part of the TP experience for Lynch was being co-author with Frost. When the relationship soured for whatever reasons, and then when Frost disappeared from the picture for a good chunk of season 2, I think that probably impacted Lynch's enthusiasm. I also get the sense that Lynch felt somewhat betrayed by Frost siding with ABC in wanting to reveal Laura's killer.

But more than anything, I get the sense from Brad's book that Lynch became increasingly frustrated with the way a precious world that he created and treasured had slipped through his fingers and been diluted by the influences of other writers and directors (admittedly, partially through his own fault, since he left season 1 in the hands of others while he worked on W@H). While Lynch is a collaborative guy, he's also an auteur and fiercely protective of his creations. I think there may have been a period where TP season 2 was approaching 'Dune' territory for him. And yes, he could always swoop in and course-correct, but it would never be the same. (I think his comment on the finale - that he changed the Red Room stuff, but that other plot threads had been set in motion and had to be honored - is telling in regards to his mindset).

Because of that, I think it was extremely important to Lynch that he take on the (frankly insane) task of directing this entire upcoming season. While Frost has hinted at the possibility of future seasons, I don't think Lynch will ever be particularly open to letting anyone but him and Frost write and direct TP. And rightfully so. While I respect the opinions of anyone who loves the back half of season 2 (and I have a fondness for parts of it), IMO, TP has proven itself to be a very fragile thing. It's not a 'Wire' or a 'Sopranos' which can spiral out in a dozen directions over several seasons, devote entire episodes to fringe characters, bring in new behind-the-camera talent, and always maintain a certain quality level and consistent tone under the hand of a strong creator. Lynch isn't a "show runner" - he's not a manager or a delegator in the way that David Simon or David Chase might be. He gets bored quickly unless he's getting his hands dirty. And as soon as Lynch is uninvolved, for me, TP ceases to be TP. A full season of TP produced in the exact same way as the pilot is, for me, the perfect way to end the show.

Of course, if we somehow get two or three seasons produced in this same manner, under Lynch and Frost's complete control - perhaps with the two men splitting directing duties - I would be on board in a heartbeat. It's very unlikely, but then again, so is 10+ hours of Lynch-directed TP! However, I don't want to risk seeing TP end on an an (inevitably) diluted fourth or fifth season put together by lesser talents with minimal involvement from Lynch.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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I would take TP the latter S 2 over no TP at all in a heartbeat; in my view, the universe of TP would have lost tremendously if the series simply concluded with Leland's revelation and demise. So, if they manage to make the upcoming episodes on the quality level of TP S 2: the latter part and sustain it on that level all the way through, I'm down for what ever number of seasons they can churn out, with Lynch at the directing helm or not. The more, the better. Hell, bring back Peyton and Engels if it can't be done otherwise and let this thing run into the next decade!
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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cowwithfivelegs wrote: I agree with every single thing about this but Frost directing future episodes.
Frost has too long been regarded as a hack or some sort of a bastard child, at best, by TP fandom and I say it's about time he gets the recognition he deserves. Deal with it, people: without Mark Frost, there would be no Twin Peaks. Not everything about TP is about Lynch and TP doesn't equal David Lynch. Yeah, bring Frost on to direct, why the heck not.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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One other thing: I think it's of crucial importance that the new episodes (and seasons, with gods' help) explore as many of the surrounding faces as possible, not just dwell on Laura and Cooper. Though something can be said about the difficulty of comparing TP to The Wire and The Sopranos with their multifocal interests, the burning question remains: why in the world would you create the whole damned town of savory characters just so you can fritter them away to insignificance???
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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FrightNight
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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cowwithfivelegs wrote:
FrightNight wrote:
cowwithfivelegs wrote: I agree with every single thing about this but Frost directing future episodes.
Yeah, bring Frost on to direct, why the heck not.
Because he directed episode 7 and it's obvious that he's not very good at it.
Based on ONE measly episode you make this claim? Hmmm ...
Also: people need to make the decision whether they like TP as a whole or just Lynch-directed TP. I have no problem if the latter's the case, it's just that sometimes, there seems to be quite a large gap between critical assessments of the Lynch-directed and non-Lynch-directed material, as in: everything that Lynch directed is pure brilliance; everything he did not direct is pure shit. Which means, basically, that 25 of the original eps are shit.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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FrightNight wrote: Also: people need to make the decision whether they like TP as a whole or just Lynch-directed TP. I have no problem if the latter's the case, it's just that sometimes, there seems to be quite a large gap between critical assessments of the Lynch-directed and non-Lynch-directed material, as in: everything that Lynch directed is pure brilliance; everything he did not direct is pure shit. Which means, basically, that 25 of the original eps are shit.
Well I think that is a bit hyperbolic, but I see what you mean. TV directors or script writers aren't as celebrated as infamous film directors and it surely must lead to preconceived notions of quality. For my part I was always more stoked when watching a Lynch directed episode for the first time, but also found myself blown away by several non-Lynch directed episodes as well as underwhelemed by at least one Lynch directed episode so I don't feel I have a remarkable bias. I think most of the director's were trying to keep somewhat of a cohesive feel to the show and some fared better than others. I'd only be interested in non-Lynch related Peaks if they were religiously devoted to the project but kind of prefer the sense of finality and closure a last season would have.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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I made a mistake when writing the previous post - it should have read "24 of the orginal eps are shit," since Lynch directed 6 episodes in whole (I'm including the pilot).
I'm curious, clueless, which is the Lynch episode that leaves you underwhelmed? My money is on the episode 10 (my numeration counts the pilot as episode 1), "Coma" ... It's one of my favourite episodes in the series and I think it's quite on par with other Lynch eps, but I could see why people would regard is as sort of an "ordinary" ep, since it doesn't contain anything groundbreaking (unlike other Lynch eps: pilot is the all-powerful opening, no. 3 has the first appearance of the Black Lodge and LMFAP, no. 9 is the season 2 opening where the giant first appears, no. 15 reveals the killer and is one of the most disturbing things in TV history, no. 30 is the all-powerful "conclusion").
Also, which of the non-Lynch episodes have blown you away, may I ask? I myself would say that at least everything in the first part of S 2, ie. from ep 9 to ep 17 (discounting eps 9, 10 and 15 which Lynch directed) is absolutely on par with anything that Lynch has ever done on the series. My favourite from that cycle would have to be eps 16 and 17 which deal with aftermaths of Maddy's murder and Leland's eventual apprehension - I still find it hard to believe ep 17 wasn't Lynch-directed as it's permeated with that magical Lynch feel ...
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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Your numbering is off by +1. Also the episodes don't have titles, those were added by a foreign distributor, I believe.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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FrightNight wrote:Also: people need to make the decision whether they like TP as a whole or just Lynch-directed TP. I have no problem if the latter's the case, it's just that sometimes, there seems to be quite a large gap between critical assessments of the Lynch-directed and non-Lynch-directed material, as in: everything that Lynch directed is pure brilliance; everything he did not direct is pure shit. Which means, basically, that 25 of the original eps are shit.
FrightNight wrote:Also, which of the non-Lynch episodes have blown you away, may I ask? I myself would say that at least everything in the first part of S 2, ie. from ep 9 to ep 17 (discounting eps 9, 10 and 15 which Lynch directed) is absolutely on par with anything that Lynch has ever done on the series. My favourite from that cycle would have to be eps 16 and 17 which deal with aftermaths of Maddy's murder and Leland's eventual apprehension - I still find it hard to believe ep 17 wasn't Lynch-directed as it's permeated with that magical Lynch feel ...
(As Needleman has noted, Episode 1 is the episode following the Pilot. I'm going to use the generally accepted numbering to facilitate conversation).

I have to disagree with you on Episode 16. While it has a nice moody quality to it (kudos to Tim Hunter), it spends WAY too much time over-explaining things like the gum (boo to the writers). I really hate the way it undermines the dreamy weirdness of the Red Room dream by ascribing some half-assed meaning to everything. In Lynch's world, the not-knowing is a lot more fun. That episode feels like someone making a sequel to 'Eraserhead' and explaining exactly who the Lady in the Radiator was (or like the last season of 'Lost' - "Oh, by the way, the Whispers were dead people"). I also despise the fact that it relieves Leland of culpability (Cooper easing Leland into the afterlife is beautifully executed by Hunter/MacLachlan/Wise, but I hate the fact that the writers tried to turn Leland into a sympathetic, unaware bystander to his own actions).

The only non-Lynch directed episodes from the "post-Episode 14 era" that truly feel Lynchian to me mostly from start to finish are Episode 15 (Caleb Deschanel - Leland is wonderfully sinister, terrific suspense sequence when he gets pulled over; the gorgeous "Louise Dombrowski" cut) and Episode 27 (Stephen Gyllanhaal - terrific example of a director making the most of an average script, adding his own flourishes which elevate the material in the same way that Lynch did with the scripted stuff in Episode 29).

All of the non-Lynch-directed episodes in season 1 are great. For me, all of season 1 remains magical: the comedy/quirkiness gelled perfectly with the darkness. Lynch does two kinds of comedy: the weird/unexpected variety (e.g., Henry's "Oh, so you ARE sick!" in 'Eraserhead') and the slapstick variety ('On the Air'). I vastly prefer the former style to the latter (I can appreciate well-done slapstick; I just think that style is something Lynch doesn't execute particularly well, whereas he is better than anyone else at pulling off the "weird" type of comedy). Season 1 is full of the former (Leland dancing, Nadine's curtain runners, Waldo the bird). Season 2 is full of the latter - and I attribute the beginnings of this squarely to Lynch (for me, the only moments that don't work in Episode 8 are not in the script and were presumably added by Lynch - the moronic "hospital food" gags, and the embarrassingly drawn-out sequence of Andy stumbling around). Unlike the comedy in season 1, these moments feel like an entirely different show from the incredibly dark ending to the episode.

Although Lynch himself started it, the other writers picked up on those moments and went way overboard with this style, creating a show that had nothing to do with what Lynch and Frost had initiated with the Pilot (even Harley Peyton admits they fell in love with this style of comedy a little too much). Season 2, even in the largely terrific run of episodes from Episode 8-14 (which rivals and surpasses season 1 in its best moments), began to feel like two wildly different series as soon as Nadine got super strength. After Episode 16, that stuff usurped the series.

In terms of story lines that worked for me in the later patch of Season 2: Major Briggs getting an expanded role and the increasing prevalence of the Black Lodge/White Lodge (minus the unfortunate Owl Cave sequence in Episode 25, which was poorly-written and directed, and looked like a set from a 1950s B-movie); some of the Windom Earle stuff (particularly the Project Bluebook clip, where Welsh is PHENOMENAL - I wish he'd given us that version of the character for the entire season); Ben Horne silently watching old films (beautiful score, Beymer's best performance on the show); Denise Bryson; Thomas Eckhardt (not really the story line itself, but I love David Warner); the pine weasel (don't ask me why - I dislike most of the slapstick stuff, but that sequence tickles me for whatever reason). There's probably more, but not much. Some of the other stuff is fine for what it is (I enjoy the Ben Civil War stuff), but far afield from what TP should be, IMO.

I've never understood the theory that season 2 gets better starting with Episode 24 or 25 or whatever. Aside from the phenomenal Episode 27, that patch feels very much of a piece with everything that came before it, and Episode 28 (the beauty pageant) is as embarrassingly awful as anything else in the series (kudos to Fenn for refusing to parade around with the other women).
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

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cowwithfivelegs wrote:
FrightNight wrote:
cowwithfivelegs wrote: I agree with every single thing about this but Frost directing future episodes.
Yeah, bring Frost on to direct, why the heck not.
Because he directed episode 7 and it's obvious that he's not very good at it.
Hmm. I've never thought Episode 7 was particularly poorly-directed, for a first-timer. IMO, he got some series-high performances from MacLachlan (Coop's understated rage in the scene with Jacques), Nance & Laurie, and Robie (the whole suicide sequence is beautifully-shot and acted). Admittedly, the "bite the bullet" scene is directed/edited in a somewhat hammy style (which I like, but it is admittedly campy), and I guess the action sequences aren't as exciting as they could have been. Frost directing would definitely be a poor second to Lynch, but even though he's objectively less talented/experienced in this area than say Glatter or Hunter, he might have more insight into their shared vision of how he & Lynch intended the scripts to be executed than an outsider.
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Re: Beyond Season 3?

Post by DeerMeadowRadio »

Frost hasn't directed anything since Storyville, which was 25 years ago and he has indicated in interviews that he has no interest in directing... so likely a moot point.

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