Beyond Season 3?

[FrightNight]

Your numbering is off by +1. Also the episodes don't have titles, those were added by a foreign distributor, I believe.

No, my numbering is not off: I specifically stated that in my numeration, the pilot counts as episode 1 and everything after it is numbered accordingly. That's the numeration used on my country's national TV when it aired TP in '91 and that's the numeration I'm sticking with, since it makes a whole lot of sense to me and is the way the great majority (if not all) of TV networks and cable programs numbers episodes of their TV shows (if a series has , for instance, 90 episodes, they talk about 90 episodes, not a pilot + 89 episodes - that's just bizzare and I never understood why it's used in TP's case ...).

Also, I'm very well aware of the fact that episode titles were added post festum, ie. after the series aired originally - I think these titles were made up by a certain German TV and then translated into English and used around the world/on the net when speaking about/dealing with the series. I see nothing wrong with using these titles in casual conversation, for clarification's sake, and don't see why you apparently do ...

[Mr. Reindeer]

I see nothing wrong with using these titles in casual conversation, for clarification's sake, and don't see why you apparently do ...

A lot of TP fans hate the titles because they're incredibly lame ("Rest in Pain," "May the Giant Be with You"), and have never been sanctioned by the show's creators (I have to imagine that Lynch and Frost have the same gag reflex to the titles as many fans do, especially since they made the very conscious and unorthodox choice NOT to give the episodes titles). I for one have no idea which episode has which title, because I've never bothered to memorize them. I think this is probably true of many fans. "For clarification's sake," it is therefore probably easier to use the accepted numbering that the fan community has adopted (which has its roots in the episode numbers that the show runners assigned to the episodes when they originally ran - for instance, the episode that you consider "Episode 7" was deemed "#006" on the cover of the script: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AG1xO6xagZc/T ... G_0001.jpg).

[N. Needleman]

I see nothing wrong with using these titles in casual conversation, for clarification's sake, and don't see why you apparently do ...

Because they were never the show's creative intent, and because I think they're mostly terrible.

You can use whatever numbering you like, but it's not the actual numbering.

[FrightNight]

I see nothing wrong with using these titles in casual conversation, for clarification's sake, and don't see why you apparently do ...

A lot of TP fans hate the titles because they're incredibly lame ("Rest in Pain," "May the Giant Be with You"), and have never been sanctioned by the show's creators (I have to imagine that Lynch and Frost have the same gag reflex to the titles as many fans do, especially since they made the very conscious and unorthodox choice NOT to give the episodes titles). I for one have no idea which episode has which title, because I've never bothered to memorize them. I think this is probably true of many fans. "For clarification's sake," it is therefore probably easier to use the accepted numbering that the fan community has adopted (which has its roots in the episode numbers that the show runners assigned to the episodes when they originally ran - for instance, the episode that you consider "Episode 7" was deemed "#006" on the cover of the script: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AG1xO6xagZc/T ... G_0001.jpg).

What's "incredibly lame" is a matter of opinion - you think these titles are such, I don't. True, I don't have to use them in fan conversation and generally don't; I guess I slipped when I dared to refer to the episode in question as "Coma", but I hardly think that's the reason I should be lambasted for.
However, I will stick with the numeration I described above, as I find the numeration where the pilot episode is not regarded as episode 1 (instead, it's the episode 2 which gets to be regarded as episode 1) incredibly senseless.

[N. Needleman]

Senseless or not, it's how the bulk of fandom and I believe critics and production staffers discuss the show.

As per Reindeer's thoughts, I will agree to disagree - while I think some of episode 16 is too literal in deduction, I think it's ultimately the perfect marriage of Lynch v. Frost: Cooper believes he has deduced certain strange clues in the right way which is wholly schematic, but the full, primal, Lynchian meaning remains up for interpretation. The gum, I felt, was genius; it's bizarre and unexplainable, but its 'explanation' here comes down to little more than a twist of fate and is not schematic or unpacked to destroy mystery, at least not to me. And I think Laura's missing diary page that Donna reads is perfect.

I take a more unpopular tack in that I also think the show actually begins to really improve starting with episode 23, Josie's death, though most don't put it until 24 or 25 - I think the drama with David Warner and Dan O'Herlihy plays well and is directed beautifully, I love Catherine manipulating Josie, and I love Josie's final scene with the Black Lodge returning from the abyss. I think 25-28 are mostly pretty good, but there are definite lowlights: Lana, the pine weasel shenanigans (though I kind of like the pine weasel), Wheeler, etc. I like Owl Cave and so forth. I like most parts of the Windom Earle story, but other parts devolve into the old Adam West Batman TV show with too many goofy disguises. I love the disguises but it's also just too much after a certain point. I love a lot of the messy 'stuff' in late Season 2, but eventually you look at it for both good and bad and see merits but come away thinking, 'yknow, there's just too much random stuff.'

[FrightNight]

I have to disagree with you on Episode 16. While it has a nice moody quality to it (kudos to Tim Hunter), it spends WAY too much time over-explaining things like the gum (boo to the writers). I really hate the way it undermines the dreamy weirdness of the Red Room dream by ascribing some half-assed meaning to everything. In Lynch's world, the not-knowing is a lot more fun. That episode feels like someone making a sequel to 'Eraserhead' and explaining exactly who the Lady in the Radiator was (or like the last season of 'Lost' - "Oh, by the way, the Whispers were dead people"). I also despise the fact that it relieves Leland of culpability (Cooper easing Leland into the afterlife is beautifully executed by Hunter/MacLachlan/Wise, but I hate the fact that the writers tried to turn Leland into a sympathetic, unaware bystander to his own actions).

I have to disagree with your interpretation of this episode - I don't think it overexplains anything, but simply strives to give some much needed words to the horror that preceeded it. The style is just incredible throughout and it contains several of the show's most iconic set pieces, particularly the one with Cooper and the waiter/the Giant at the Roadhouse ("That gum you like is going to come back in style.") and the one with the dying Leland Cooper cradles in his arms during the smoke alarm's outpour - not to mention the terrifically poignant conversation of the policemen and Major Briggs that's held at the episode's end, followed by the shot of the spooky woods, bathed in hallucinogenic colors, and the owl/Bob flying into the camera.

The only non-Lynch directed episodes from the "post-Episode 14 era" that truly feel Lynchian to me mostly from start to finish are Episode 15 (Caleb Deschanel - Leland is wonderfully sinister, terrific suspense sequence when he gets pulled over; the gorgeous "Louise Dombrowski" cut) and Episode 27 (Stephen Gyllanhaal - terrific example of a director making the most of an average script, adding his own flourishes which elevate the material in the same way that Lynch did with the scripted stuff in Episode 29).

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the subject of episode 15/16, a strong candidate for my favourite TP episode of all (that Louise Dombrowski scene is too cool for words!). I don't remember anything in particular sticking out of episode 27/28 - I find it very consistent with that particular batch of episodes leading up to the finale.

All of the non-Lynch-directed episodes in season 1 are great. For me, all of season 1 remains magical: the comedy/quirkiness gelled perfectly with the darkness. Lynch does two kinds of comedy: the weird/unexpected variety (e.g., Henry's "Oh, so you ARE sick!" in 'Eraserhead') and the slapstick variety ('On the Air'). I vastly prefer the former style to the latter (I can appreciate well-done slapstick; I just think that style is something Lynch doesn't execute particularly well, whereas he is better than anyone else at pulling off the "weird" type of comedy). Season 1 is full of the former (Leland dancing, Nadine's curtain runners, Waldo the bird). Season 2 is full of the latter - and I attribute the beginnings of this squarely to Lynch (for me, the only moments that don't work in Episode 8 are not in the script and were presumably added by Lynch - the moronic "hospital food" gags, and the embarrassingly drawn-out sequence of Andy stumbling around). Unlike the comedy in season 1, these moments feel like an entirely different show from the incredibly dark ending to the episode.

While I do agree that there is a strong merit of Season 1's consistent tone and the perfect balance between its seriousness and its humor, I still think people tend to make too much of it when comparing it to Season 2. Yes, the latter is much more erratic and over-the-top silly, but also more tragic and profound and filled with so much of what's now regarded as trademark TP mythos. Yes, that sequence of Andy stumbling around is borderline idiotic and has no place in an otherwise very grim S 2 opening.

Although Lynch himself started it, the other writers picked up on those moments and went way overboard with this style, creating a show that had nothing to do with what Lynch and Frost had initiated with the Pilot (even Harley Peyton admits they fell in love with this style of comedy a little too much). Season 2, even in the largely terrific run of episodes from Episode 8-14 (which rivals and surpasses season 1 in its best moments), began to feel like two wildly different series as soon as Nadine got super strength. After Episode 16, that stuff usurped the series.

True enough. Particularly your point of view about the first part of S 2 surpassing S 1. And yes, I do agree the latter S 2 had way too much idiotically humorous stuff which might've seemed hilarious to people running the show back then but is now nothing else than ho-hum.

In terms of story lines that worked for me in the later patch of Season 2: Major Briggs getting an expanded role and the increasing prevalence of the Black Lodge/White Lodge (minus the unfortunate Owl Cave sequence in Episode 25, which was poorly-written and directed, and looked like a set from a 1950s B-movie); some of the Windom Earle stuff (particularly the Project Bluebook clip, where Welsh is PHENOMENAL - I wish he'd given us that version of the character for the entire season); Ben Horne silently watching old films (beautiful score, Beymer's best performance on the show); Denise Bryson; Thomas Eckhardt (not really the story line itself, but I love David Warner); the pine weasel (don't ask me why - I dislike most of the slapstick stuff, but that sequence tickles me for whatever reason). There's probably more, but not much. Some of the other stuff is fine for what it is (I enjoy the Ben Civil War stuff), but far afield from what TP should be, IMO.

Hm, some corrections here: the majority, not just some, of the Windom Earle stuff is great (true, his disguises were sometimes a tad much but he's otherwise a marvelous opponent to the main protagonist, fatefully tied into the latter's past); the character and actor that need to be mentioned alongside Eckhardt/Warner in terms of greatness are Andrew Packard/Dan O'Herlihy (it's a shame both of them, Eckhardt and Packard, had so very little to do); what's sorely missing from the list of "workable" latter S 2 stuff are the Jean Renault miniarc and the romance between Cooper and Annie Blackburn; Denise Bryson is way overrated and the pine weasel needs to be lumped together with Little Nicky, Nadine the Superwomen and Ben-the Civil War-Horne as one of the season's lamest moments.

I've never understood the theory that season 2 gets better starting with Episode 24 or 25 or whatever. Aside from the phenomenal Episode 27, that patch feels very much of a piece with everything that came before it, and Episode 28 (the beauty pageant) is as embarrassingly awful as anything else in the series (kudos to Fenn for refusing to parade around with the other women).

I never understood that theory also; mainly because I think it's from episode 21 (Leo Johnson's rejuvenation, the Dead Dog Farm standoff, Windom Earle finally making his grand entrance via the creepy corpse he leaves at the sheriff station) that S 2 picks up steam again I think the three slowest episodes are 18-20, when Jean Renault practically single-handedly saves the series' honor.

[N. Needleman]

There are nice things in most of the 'bad' episodes, sure. I think Uli Edel has some great sequences with Leo attacking Shelly and disappearing into the night, I think the handling of the Lana plotline at the sheriff's station is amusing if pointless; I think Windom Earle's introduction in that episode is handled perfectly. (And then fumbled in the episode immediately thereafter.) I think Renault's final confrontation with Cooper is well-done. But I don't think any of that adds up to anything coming close to the first 16 episodes of the series. The meat of the overall storylines at that point in Season 2 are all pretty weak or spinning their wheels.

[Clueless]

I'm curious, clueless, which is the Lynch episode that leaves you underwhelmed? My money is on the episode 10 (my numeration counts the pilot as episode 1), "Coma" ... It's one of my favourite episodes in the series and I think it's quite on par with other Lynch eps, but I could see why people would regard is as sort of an "ordinary" ep, since it doesn't contain anything groundbreaking

"Underwhelmed" was a bad choice of words on my part, every Lynch episode is suburb, what I meant was some episodes were somewhat flawed, or don't seem to fit the bill of Lynch's best directional works. Some of his episodes are slightly marred by a few sequences that I don't get (the above mentioned goofy Andy board scene, I also didn't care much for badgirl-posturing Donna in S2's premiere). The incredible sequences make up for those missteps. Generally I found myself enjoying each of Lynch's episodes better than the last, with the pilot and the third episode were masterful I didn't think TP would be among my favorite Lynch projects; with every subsequent Lynch episode gradually convincing me otherwise. I'd agree the Coma is one of the finest episodes.

Also, which of the non-Lynch episodes have blown you away, may I ask? I myself would say that at least everything in the first part of S 2, ie. from ep 9 to ep 17 (discounting eps 9, 10 and 15 which Lynch directed) is absolutely on par with anything that Lynch has ever done on the series. My favourite from that cycle would have to be eps 16 and 17 which deal with aftermaths of Maddy's murder and Leland's eventual apprehension - I still find it hard to believe ep 17 wasn't Lynch-directed as it's permeated with that magical Lynch feel ...

Episode 6, directed by Lesli Linkla Glatter is one of my favorites and a few of the most sublimely directed but non-lynch sequences are nestled in what I believe to be the generally insipid plot-writing the latter second season. I think that the Uli Edel directed episode (22 by your count) is chalk full of amazing direction despite having a somewhat weak script.

[LostInTheMovies]

1) I don't remember ever being satisfyingly explained once and for all what was it that drove Lynch out of the TP orbit when it was alive and spinning, when he still had some power to take the series in the direction he felt was right, even if the suits have forced the killer's revelation out of him? People keep saying he was "off filming Wild at Heart", but the chronology really doesn't add up, 'cause Wild at Heart premiered after the S 1 had concluded and before S 2 had even begun. So there had to be other reasons for his fallout in that crucial time when the show he helped to create needed him the most.

Based on his activity and statements later, my hunch is that to him the character of Laura Palmer was so integral to what made Twin Peaks click that when she was effectively removed from the storyline, his creative well dried up for a time. It's certainly significant that he chose to make a prequel after the show got cancelled, especially at a time when that type of film barely existed.

2) Lynch's wishes for the show to continue past S 2 imply that he was feeling strongly that the story needs to go on, even with its major mystery basically done and over with and even in that time's decidedly auteur-inhospitable TV landscape. That means he was (once again?) willing to engage in the show's day-to-day logistics even if "his" show was botched and the suits have dragged his creative vision through the mud. How he'll salvage the wreck that the majority of fans seems to think the show became in its latter stages I guess we'll get to see, but what will forever remain a mystery is just how Lynch was planning to handle that day's network limitations that damaged the show once before - and they were still in full swing when S 3 would originally air.

I'll say, again based on indirect statements and actions (since Lynch is so cryptic it's hard to determine anything definitively), that I suspect he didn't have any concrete plans. Even the finale itself seems to have been half-improvised on the spot. It seems like he had general ideas about things that were interesting to him - Laura's life, the existence of an eerie supernatural dimension intermingling with the everyday world, the atmosphere/mood of the small town in the woods - but wasn't particularly keen on charting a plotline. That's what made Twin Peaks so brilliant to begin with but also what left it vulnerable when he wasn't feeling particularly inspired.

Also, I should mention that lately I've been reading/hearing a LOT of Harley Peyton quotes (some from a while back) maintaining that Lynch actually WAS quite present during the post-ep. 14 episodes, implicitly in the Twin Peaks production offices, so who knows? A lot of actors interviewed in Wrapped in Plastic (according to John Thorne's recent compilation book) also seem to remember him being present for their casting, even if their parts came long after he stopped directing (then again, actors would have been cast relatively early in the process I assume so he might have still been directing episodes at that point?).

What DOES seem clear is that he wasn't offering much in the way of strong creative input even if he was "around" and that he and Frost were basically letting Peyton & Engels steer the ship.

Yeah. And so was the show's continuation basically a "wishful thinking" of some of us isolated fan nutcases for friggin' decades prior to 2014 - I could find you a number of quotes even on this message board of diehards saying TP is better off "finished" as it is and not risking its reputation as this one-off wonder being tarnished. And look where we are now ... And I'm really not seeing any fan petitions demanding of Lynch and Frost to leave well alone, so that fans could have their perfect bubble of a show preserved as it is for all eternity.

It's all sort of a semantic argument at this point. I think most of us would not want Twin Peaks to commit itself to continuing just for the sake of continuing, nor would we NOT want to continue if Lynch/Frost have some plan they're really excited about. So it's how we phrase it that pushes each other's buttons/gets us to disagree I guess.

[LostInTheMovies]

Wanna quote all of this approvingly, since I agree with so much of it, but this in particular:

When the relationship soured for whatever reasons, and then when Frost disappeared from the picture for a good chunk of season 2, I think that probably impacted Lynch's enthusiasm. I also get the sense that Lynch felt somewhat betrayed by Frost siding with ABC in wanting to reveal Laura's killer.

I feel like this was huge, and gets overlooked a lot because a) Lynch isn't one to point fingers at individuals and b) since Lynch-Frost INITIALLY resisted revealing the killer, it's often assumed that both of them resisted to the bitter end. But in fact, I've seen dozens of Frost quotes, stretching from 1990 to the present, hinting or flat-out stating that he pushed Lynch to reveal Laura's killer sooner rather than later, at least once season 2 was greenlit. That really seems to be the source of a lot of the malaise surrounding the second season.

While Lynch is a collaborative guy, he's also an auteur and fiercely protective of his creations. I think there may have been a period where TP season 2 was approaching 'Dune' territory for him.

Absolutely. Again, he's super-polite toward the other writer/directors, many of whom were friends of his, and at times (as late as Stephen Gyllenhaal in ep. 27) they report him being enthusiastic about some of their ideas. But without being specific, in interviews he's very down on the process of handing your work over to others for interpretation, noting that something gets lost in the process. I suspect for him it's like having other artists step in and paint pieces of your painting (which was obviously the method for many artists from medieval times to Andy Warhol, but is not the Lynchian way!). It's also notable that when he talks about Twin Peaks losing its way, he seems to hone in a bit more on the pilot rather than, generally, "the first season" as Frost and many of the actors do. Maybe I'm mistaken about that but I can think of occasions where he's talked about "the pilot being the thing" and have trouble remembering times when he, at least unprompted, praised s1. Sometimes I think ep. 8 was a bit of a rebuke to ep. 7 particularly, but also all of s1 with its self-conscious irony & pop culture-friendly tone/style (the Lynch-Frost drift seems to have begun as early as Frost's Invitation to Love segments). Which is again a good reminder that the Twin Peaks many viewers and critics fell in love with was at least as much Frost's creation as Lynch's.

Lynch isn't a "show runner" - he's not a manager or a delegator in the way that David Simon or David Chase might be. He gets bored quickly unless he's getting his hands dirty.

Agreed. Frost, on the other hand, does strike me as a born showrunner (maybe a miniseries-runner given the exceptionally strong, tight structure of season 1 vs. even the best stretches of the 22-episode season 2). Which makes it surprising that he's hardly ever done it before or after Twin Peaks. Weren't On the Air, which I don't think he was around for much of, and Buddy Faro his only other attempts? (I mean he was a Peyton-esque surrogate showrunner for several seasons of Hill Street Blues it seems, but that's quite different from being the creator supervising your own creation.)

[LostInTheMovies]

I would take TP the latter S 2 over no TP at all in a heartbeat; in my view, the universe of TP would have lost tremendously if the series simply concluded with Leland's revelation and demise. So, if they manage to make the upcoming episodes on the quality level of TP S 2: the latter part and sustain it on that level all the way through, I'm down for what ever number of seasons they can churn out, with Lynch at the directing helm or not. The more, the better. Hell, bring back Peyton and Engels if it can't be done otherwise and let this thing run into the next decade!

This is where we differ I guess. I accept the weaker episodes but only as part of a whole that ended decisively with the strength of finale & FWWM. If Lynch had never directed another episode after #14, I'd be all for ending the show there and/or ignoring the rest. They are compelling for the ways they build up to a powerful climax and even fascinating for their peaks-and-valleys quality, but taken purely on their own terms they would really dilute the impact of the series for me. I'm not enough in love with that world (I'm in love with what it COULD be) to choose quantity over quality, but I understand others find even the weakest Twin Peaks sufficiently entertaining, soothing, stimulating, nostalgically appealing or whatever to justify wallowing in that world at any cost, and that's fine of course - to each their own. Hell, if I haven't watched the show in a while and want a taste of Peaks, even something like ep. 21 has its charms for me. For the future, though, I'll personally be rooting for Lynch-directed Peaks or no Peaks.

[LostInTheMovies]

I agree with every single thing about this but Frost directing future episodes.

Frost has too long been regarded as a hack or some sort of a bastard child, at best, by TP fandom and I say it's about time he gets the recognition he deserves. Deal with it, people: without Mark Frost, there would be no Twin Peaks. Not everything about TP is about Lynch and TP doesn't equal David Lynch. Yeah, bring Frost on to direct, why the heck not.

I agree that Frost is hugely important to making Twin Peaks "Twin Peaks", and I think he is underrated as a director - Storyville is a very entertaining work and I wish he'd done more. However, his greatest strengths are less in the audiovisual aspect of filmmaking and more in storytelling and character work. Hence I'd prefer Lynch direct everything, which is not to knock Frost. Frost seems ok with that too. While he's criticized Lynch at times for certain things (usually narrative-related), he's always been in absolute awe of his formal chops as an auteur, comparing him to Hitchcock and saying that almost no director can summon up mood through images and sounds the way he can.

[LostInTheMovies]

Also, which of the non-Lynch episodes have blown you away, may I ask? I myself would say that at least everything in the first part of S 2, ie. from ep 9 to ep 17 (discounting eps 9, 10 and 15 which Lynch directed) is absolutely on par with anything that Lynch has ever done on the series. My favourite from that cycle would have to be eps 16 and 17 which deal with aftermaths of Maddy's murder and Leland's eventual apprehension - I still find it hard to believe ep 17 wasn't Lynch-directed as it's permeated with that magical Lynch feel ...

Although you were asking another commentator, I'll butt in on this! (I'm enjoying catching up with the lively discussion on this thread at a late date.)

My favorite non-Lynchs are (in order & using your numbering with official in parenthesis) ep. 7 (s1e6), ep. 14 (s2e6, ie. "13"), ep. 6 (s1e5), and ep. 5 (s1e4). I feel about the second half of of season 1 the way you feel about the first third of season 2 - tight, flowing from one episode to the next, suffused with a magical atmosphere. I often say that while the Lynch-directed entries are my favorite individual episodes, the episodes following (but not including) Laura's funeral constitute my favorite "stretch" of the show. It's the part of the series where it most feels like a cohesive, engrossing, week-to-week show.

I have more mixed feelings about early s2, at least the non-Lynch episodes (and even at least one Lynch episode - the premiere rather than the follow-up). The highs are higher than s1 which is one reason I tend to favor early s2 over s1 when taking both as a whole. But I think the lows are lower too. Specifically, none of the non-mystery subplots really engage me and some of the really weak sauce of mid-s2 actually begins here. What I grieve most is the loss of that feeling, sustained from the pilot through the s1 finale, that everyone's lives in Twin Peaks are deeply intertwined, with characters appearing in each others' storylines and the sense that any or all of them could be connected to Laura's murder (a sense I get even rewatching the show, knowing that they aren't really). Also, few of these subplots contain the elements of tension or uncertainty that the s1 stories did. Instead they are more straightforward comedic or melodramatic TV grist-for-the-mill and feel a bit tired as a result.

On the other hand, the best stuff of s2 is really exciting and without it, I don't think the Twin Peaks cult or my own interest in the show would have taken off the way they did. Much of this is in the Lynch episodes but it's there in the ones he didn't direct too. The supernatural aspect doesn't even really begin until these episodes. The mystery - which was a hovering presence throughout s1 but also a bit of a MacGuffin - now takes on an intensity and (this is key) a personal, psychological component it didn't really have before, paving the way for the traumatic reveal & eventually the intensity of FWWM. For that reason I very much like the oft-maligned Harold arc: between its focus on Laura, the compellingly uncomfortable relationship between Harold & Donna (both drawn to but using one another), and Badalamenti's gorgeous music - his theme is my favorite on the show - I think somehow these scenes strike at the core of Twin Peaks in a way few others do, for me at least. And of course Ray Wise is fantastic as Leland, getting to stretch out in a way he didn't even in the best of s1, where his character could've been seen as more of a one-note joke, however sympathetic and funny.

While the comeback of late s2 is somewhat exaggerated (the Miss Twin Peaks episode has become my least favorite of the whole series and the one I find most difficult to watch), I do agree with the general consensus that the show gets better there. Above all because it restores that sense of "everyone's connected" that was lost even in the best episodes of the season. Mid-s2 I think is genuinely bad, though of course it has highlights and I've honestly gotten to the point where my fascination with just *how* it got so bad actually makes me kind of enjoy watching it in a perverse way. And early s1, since I kind of left that out of the discussion, is great of course though - aside from the Red Room episode - it tends to draw me a bit less than late s1 or early s2. It's fascinating to watch the characters take form, and I know some viewers think the series was never better than the pilot, but for me the excitement and immersion occur a bit later in the process.

We're way O/T now, so apologies! If you wish to refocus this discussion, just say so & maybe the mods can move this to another thread. But I guess it's indirectly relevant as to what we appreciate/hope for from Twin Peaks.

[LostInTheMovies]

Another great post.

Lynch does two kinds of comedy: the weird/unexpected variety (e.g., Henry's "Oh, so you ARE sick!" in 'Eraserhead') and the slapstick variety ('On the Air'). I vastly prefer the former style to the latter (I can appreciate well-done slapstick; I just think that style is something Lynch doesn't execute particularly well, whereas he is better than anyone else at pulling off the "weird" type of comedy). Season 1 is full of the former (Leland dancing, Nadine's curtain runners, Waldo the bird). Season 2 is full of the latter - and I attribute the beginnings of this squarely to Lynch (for me, the only moments that don't work in Episode 8 are not in the script and were presumably added by Lynch - the moronic "hospital food" gags, and the embarrassingly drawn-out sequence of Andy stumbling around).

Wow, really great point. Though I don't mind the slapstick as much (although Lynch's vision of Andy is generally one of my least favorite things he brings to the table), I do agree that it doesn't work as well for me as the pure arch, absurdist, is-it-even-comedy stuff. And in a way Lynch did plant some of the seeds for what ailed the rest of s2. People are always surprised when how similar to mid/late s2 On the Air is.

some of the Windom Earle stuff (particularly the Project Bluebook clip, where Welsh is PHENOMENAL - I wish he'd given us that version of the character for the entire season);

Yes

Ben Horne silently watching old films (beautiful score, Beymer's best performance on the show)

Yes

the pine weasel

no!

Episode 28 (the beauty pageant) is as embarrassingly awful as anything else in the series (kudos to Fenn for refusing to parade around with the other women).

Yes!

[FrightNight]

@LostInTheMovies

I'm having sort of a busy schedule at work today (and the whole coming week, I'm afraid), so for now, just this: there's absolutely no need to apologize for going off topic or "butting in", not to me, at least - I'm an absolute sucker for such debating! Anything about TP's narrative structure, behind-the-screens issues and decisions that influenced the series' contents and scrutinizing various segments, parts, elements and phases of TP's many modes and faces gets me going and you're an absolute expert in insightful, concise, synthetic categorization, classification and evaluation, as your fantastic video series about TP (I watched it on YouTube) and various meticulous texts about it demonstrate without a doubt. As a huge fan of your work that I've become in this last year (ever since I stumbled across the TP net fandom during the spring '15 crisis), I consider it an honor to debate with you on all shapes and sizes of this questionless work of art that is TP.
So, I thank you for this last series of intelligently written posts you contributed to the thread (you make a few points that're impossible to disagree with, even though we already now by now we don't see quite eye to eye when it comes to the value of TP's different segments and to the question about the series' possible continuation beyond the upcoming season - you nailed me, I'm all for endless wallowing in this wonderful and strange universe, Lynch or no Lynch ) and look forward to future exchanges of views, however different they might transpire. Here's to Twin Peaks!