Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

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The Man

Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby The Man » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:30 pm

I think the consensus is that Series 1 was more down to earth and the weird parts were just quirky Jungian kinda archetypes in the minds of the writers. Then Series 2 got derailed by being all supernatural and too weird.

This is what l think:

- Series 1 was steeped in supernatural occult stuff. It just takes time to scratch the surface, but it became full blown by the time of Major Briggs' alien abduction in Series 2. Clearly X-Files was a branch of Twin Peaks. I never actually watched the X-Files though, just clips. Didn't appeal to me.

- Twin Peaks is best appreciated from an occult supernatural perspective. There's so much of it there, that it becomes a huge mental task to explain it all away superficially in terms of the mundane, even though of course the mundane is resonant with the occult undercurrents - they're all part of the Whole, perhaps that's the central axiom of Twin Peaks.

- I chanced upon this video on YouTube. It ties in to conspiracy theories about CERN being a stargate blah blah blah and that time travellers are thus rewriting history by changing miniscule facts, mostly movie quotes that we thought we know, but also little facts about Nelson Mandela blah blah. I don't for a moment believe either of these things, not a shred of tin foil in my house.

However, the video is pretty much entirely about some deleted scenes from FWWM (the Black Lodge audio was apparently reversed to avoid copyright issues). And WOW ... the exegesis of the transcript, given in block capitals, is absolutely stunning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sExXXC16SbU


EDIT: I've never actually seen the Missing Pieces myself, so l may actually be mistaken - the exegesis in block capitals might actually be from Lynch himself but l doubt it (correct me if you've seen The Missing Pieces). Also, if any of this violates copyright please delete this post.

EDIT: Why O why isn't The Missing Pieces available separately, on DVD? I don't have Blu Ray.
The Man

Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby The Man » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:32 am

I also notice this similarity with a British movie, Gangster No. 1:
https://youtu.be/4B508Y12YlA?t=88

FWWM Missing Pieces:
https://youtu.be/sExXXC16SbU?t=396


I call that weird screeching noise "Evil Principle Enters", and it occurs in at least 2 different scenes in Gangster No. 1, and several times in just that one clip from FWWM Missing Pieces.

It could be that Gangster No. 1 copied Lynch, but in Gangster No. 1, it occurred with only the blond man, only just before he murders a person. In fact, in Gangster No. 1 the first time it happened, a tyre blew out on the car the guy was driving, giving him cause to pull over, and kill the passenger. So ... it gave the blond man supernatural powers.
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby the woods » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:49 pm

not entirely sure what to make of this cern/mandela/black lodge video...it seems to be reaching a little, but in
manner that encourages speculation. it's kind of cool though, except for the sound mix.
i have not been reading spoilers, but i do think that "twin peaks" will grow darker, and that this kind of subject matter will
continue to inform the series, even more so after seeing the jack parsons quote that is being used to promote frost's new "secret history " book.

i don't believe in it either, but i do find it quite novel and interesting. the whole idea of the lodges, as well as that of the log lady,
who is featured in the video is certainly easy to interpret as parsons-esque. these ultimate entry ways to other dimensions, beyond
good and evil, were definitely part of parson's experimentation.
the whole "babalon working" project of parsons was to open up these kind of passageways, and to be able to enter them as well as allow other "things"
a way out (some of these, according to parsons were what others saw as UFOs). these were beings parsons sometimes referred to as "watchers".

it's really absurd specualtion but the log lady's story is kind of makes me think of parsons as well.
margaret lanterman is not so far from marjorie cameron, parson's wife.
also margaret's husband was a lumber "jack" who like jack parsons, died in a fire.
plus i have always kind of liked the reading that the lumberjack above the convenience store (jurgen prochnow) might really be the log lady's husband.
this is crazy and silly of course, but i find it fun to think about.

i wish i could see the photos on the mantle in the log lady's cabin a little better.
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The Man

Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby The Man » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:54 pm

the woods wrote:i don't believe in it either, but i do find it quite novel and interesting.

That's cool :) I wasn't trying to convince anybody about the supernatural btw, l was only making the case for Lynch's intent with Twin Peaks being this melding of the mundane with the supernatural. He's into Transcendantal Meditation so that's another major clue that his intent in Twin Peaks is the interplay between two worlds.

FWIW I'm sure there is a supernatural world. If you've ever tried hallucinogens you'd know :O Apart from that it'd be pointless me trying to convince anybody via a forum, because seeing / feeling / smelling ... is believing!

Btw a trip would explain the meaning of one of the Jack Parsons quotes you alluded to ("We saw things that maybe men aren't supposed to see,") - there's a whole world out there just out of view, and some of the things you come to see ... l never met angels / white lodge spirits but WOW there are certainly some vile things lurking beyond the doors of perception, your heart would skip a beat. Ultimately l'd say avoid shrooms: they're illegal and you could end up physically dead if you er ... meet a powerful being.


the woods wrote:the whole idea of the lodges, as well as that of the log lady, who is featured in the video is certainly easy to interpret as parsons-esque. these ultimate entry ways to other dimensions, beyond
good and evil, were definitely part of parson's experimentation.

I don't think l'd ever heard of Parsons until now. I checked out his Wikipedia page. Sorry to hear how he died. Intrigued as well. Symbolic because of the fire :O


the woods wrote:the whole "babalon working" project of parsons was to open up these kind of passageways, and to be able to enter them as well as allow other "things" a way out (some of these, according to parsons were what others saw as UFOs). these were beings parsons sometimes referred to as "watchers".

Fascinating. Lynch clearly brought extraterrestrials into Twin Peaks, and they are connected with the lodges (likely the White Lodge, because of the Major Briggs abduction).
I've heard about the Watchers from other literature, l can't recall where.
It all sounds like something Norma Cox would have been into.


the woods wrote:it's really absurd specualtion but the log lady's story is kind of makes me think of parsons as well.
margaret lanterman is not so far from marjorie cameron, parson's wife.
also margaret's husband was a lumber "jack" who like jack parsons, died in a fire.
plus i have always kind of liked the reading that the lumberjack above the convenience store (jurgen prochnow) might really be the log lady's husband.
this is crazy and silly of course, but i find it fun to think about.

Intriguing. I had actually read about one of the lumberjacks perhaps being the Log Lady's husband. I doubt it because the Log Lady is clearly against the Black Lodge, and she clearly loves her husband. I see her as a Mary figure, because how she cradles the log, like Madonna and Child, and there's the myth about the other Mary being secretly married to Christ.

Anyway, everybody in the convenience store scene is a demon. Also, according to Jeffreys, he was at the convenience store meeting (how? I never saw him there) and he saw that the demons were in silence for a long time, perhaps hours, before actually conversing. Time would have flowed differently to here on earth, so that period of silence could well have been millennia. My point being this would further rule out any lumberjack from being Log Lady's husband.

Further, from the Missing Clips clip, you see via the exegesis in block capitals that the demons determined to settle in the green forest. This proves to me that the actual meeting was way back in ancient history, because the native Americans knew of the evil in the woods and they are an ancient people, so the meeting in the convenience store would have been at least as far back as the native American legends of the evil in the woods.

In favour of Log Lady's hubby being at the convenience store meeting ... the lumberjacks were cutting trees, and trees have a spiritual sense in Twin Peaks, so it verges on the demonic, to be a lumberjack l guess?


the woods wrote:i wish i could see the photos on the mantle in the log lady's cabin a little better.

Yeah, just enough zoom to make out a huge beard :D
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby the woods » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:31 am

the text portions of the mandela/missing pieces/cern video are not part of the missing pieces.
i certainly don't know what the origin of those are...perhaps an attempt to reconcile the themes the author of the video sees as connecting those otherwise disparate threads into a single conspiracy theory, perhaps the opposite of that -to confuse these themes even more, or more likely to dramatize the impression that what you're watching is dangerous enough to infect your mind irrevocably. and on some subliminal level. ha!

i would describe my own experiences with psychedelics as overwhelmingly positive, with psilocibin being always being the milder and more organic of them. both lsd and peyote were more powerful drugs in my case. even then, only once have i experienced anything truly like what you describe - and whether that represented something "real" or was a manifestation of my own psyche is up for grabs (which is not to say my own psyche isn't "real" !). i will say that that "entity" or whatever it was hung around for a couple of months longer than the drug should have remained in my system. but like you, i would certainly not condone the use of these type of experiences for others. in my own case, this is part of my past and not something from which i feel there is more for me to learn.

oh agree that parsons is an extremely unusual figure, and his wife marjorie cameron is pretty fascinating as well. they are both tragic figures in some respects too. "sex and rockets" is a good book about him, and"the wormwood star" is a good one about her. but there could be something there, at least as far as the mythology of twin peaks is concerned. parsons always insisted that the entire ufo phenomenon was the result of him having accidentally released these beings from their proper dimension, and to his credit (and i'm not sure that is the right word) the modern ufo phenomen is indeed consistent with his stated time of their release. if there is a connection with twin peaks, i would tend to think of these "watchers" as like the owls.
i was not familiar with norma cox - but reading a little about her brought me full circle with craig baldwin's "tribulation 99" hollow earth satire, which is what i thought of when i was watching the missing pieces/cern/mandela vid.

i tend to read time in the "other place" as so wholly different from time in the rest of twin peaks that i do not see it bound by the limitations of past, present, and future. the meeting "above a convenience store", could be one of many meetings there. it is too bad that we will not see jeffries again, certainly more about him would have been a marvelous thing to explore - but out of respect for a figure as iconic and important as bowie, i think it is appropriate that we do not, and that character should indeed remain a mystery. but i would place jeffries's relationship to time, at least in his "present" circumstances, as not inconsistent with the beings from the other place.
as in the video, when jeffries visits the fbi office in philadelphia, he clearly recognizes cooper as either dopplecooper, or as the vessel for future dopplecooper - even though cooper hasn't even been to twin peaks yet. i see the meeting above the convenience store in the same way. it seems to be clear that it did happen "above a convenience store", which would preclude it having happened before the nineteen twenties - however, i would imagine that the "psychic" residue (not to mention the results) of that meeting might extend far into both the past and future.
for this reason i have long liked to speculate, (and i'm far out on a limb here because i don't think scott frost, the author of the "dale cooper: my life my tapes" tie-in book , could have foreseen how S2 would end), that even though cooper is not taken by bob until well into his visit to twin peaks - that, because he is taken by bob, bob now has access to cooper's entire timeline: his past, present, and future. so not only is cooper (as bob) most likely directly responsible for the murder of caroline, he is also responsible for another murder in that book. of course this is not entirely consistent with the leland/bob timeline as it applies to time in twin peaks, but does it have to be?
i do think the beings from "the other place" are just as associated with cooper as they are with laura, and at least some of the evil that takes place in twin peaks during S1 and S2 is something that came there with agent cooper, and i find it not unreasonable to speculate these beings saw his innocence and its potential for their purposes, and that they knew what was going to happen to him, or at the very least, set that course of events into motion.
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby StrangerDanger » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:50 pm

Hi "the woods" l'm back on my old name because l screwed up the login of "The Man" account, not sure how to recover it.

the woods wrote:the text portions of the mandela/missing pieces/cern video are not part of the missing pieces.

Thanks for clarifying.


the woods wrote:i certainly don't know what the origin of those are...perhaps an attempt to reconcile the themes the author of the video sees as connecting those otherwise disparate threads into a single conspiracy theory,

As l've said, ignore the CERN stuff, it's bland, l'm only looking at the Missing Pieces and the exegesis in block capitals, which in my mind is absolutely awesome.


the woods wrote:i would describe my own experiences with psychedelics as overwhelmingly positive, with psilocibin being always being the milder and more organic of them.

The powerful beings l was referring to, was actually one being that l had in mind. He was an Aztec spirit. I wasn't even thinking about the Aztecs at the time, but when l saw those sluggish swirls l thought of Aztec art, but evenso, l only realised the connection with an Aztec spirit much later. Coincidence: The shrooms were a Mexican strain. Another coincidence: BOB is native American.

I'd like to explain: I first saw Twin Peaks as a young teen. Then basically forgot about it within a few months, least of all because l didn't even watch all of it, but l got behind the last few episodes for sure. Then did shrooms about 13 - 14 years later. Then about a 1 or 2 years later, l read a fan theory about Twin Peaks. It said that the presence of the Black Lodge was signified by the smell of burning.

This all comes to bear on that first and subsequent shroom trips where something very powerful punched me in the back of the head [BOB smacks his hands together as a display of the force of his fury, in the Lodge scene in the CERN video https://youtu.be/sExXXC16SbU?t=229] and caused me to be thrown face down on my bed.

Anyway, l would avoid shrooms.


the woods wrote:both lsd and peyote were more powerful drugs in my case.

LSD was always a laugh, even the bad trips turned out to be good trips hehe. Never tried peyote, sounds awesome.


the woods wrote: only once have i experienced anything truly like what you describe - and whether that represented something "real" or was a manifestation of my own psyche is up for grabs (which is not to say my own psyche isn't "real" !).

The stuff l've experienced e.g. the BOB spirit and stuff l've seen in the mirror, appears right away, unbidden, l find it hard to see how l could have imagined it, especially when it was so scary my heart would miss a beat or two.


the woods wrote: i will say that that "entity" or whatever it was hung around for a couple of months longer than the drug should have remained in my system.

Intriguing, would like to know more about this "entity"?


the woods wrote:oh agree that parsons is an extremely unusual figure, and his wife marjorie cameron is pretty fascinating as well.

Yes you can tell just from Parsons' Wikipedia pic that he's no pleb.


the woods wrote:they are both tragic figures in some respects too. "sex and rockets" is a good book about him, and"the wormwood star" is a good one about her.

Interesting, were they connected to the "Wormwood" mythos?
Perhaps this nemesis star is connected to the putative world where corn grows, Planet Garmonbozia, in the Twin Peaks mythos.


the woods wrote:parsons always insisted that the entire ufo phenomenon was the result of him having accidentally released these beings from their proper dimension, and to his credit (and i'm not sure that is the right word) the modern ufo phenomen is indeed consistent with his stated time of their release.

It's certainly possible. Would you say that he paid the price?


the woods wrote:if there is a connection with twin peaks, i would tend to think of these "watchers" as like the owls.

I see.


the woods wrote:was not familiar with norma cox - but reading a little about her brought me full circle with craig baldwin's "tribulation 99" hollow earth satire, which is what i thought of when i was watching the missing pieces/cern/mandela vid.

I don't know Norma Cox too well but l would say she's the stuff of modern Illuminati-UFO conspiracies. As for the CERN vid, yeah it's too far fetched but l was only interested in the Black Lodge sequences. As for the Mandela Effect, l'd say people need to eat and sleep well, then they'd remember movie quotes. Nothing to see here.


the woods wrote:i tend to read time in the "other place" as so wholly different from time in the rest of twin peaks that i do not see it bound by the limitations of past, present, and future. the meeting "above a convenience store", could be one of many meetings there.

the woods wrote: it seems to be clear that it did happen "above a convenience store", which would preclude it having happened before the nineteen twenties

Perhaps.
Also, l don't think it necessarily has to co-exist with the convenience store. It could just pinpoint the spacial location, regardless of when the convenience store was actually built. Perhaps at some point, the convenience store was built and Mike physically lived there.


the woods wrote:it is too bad that we will not see jeffries again, certainly more about him would have been a marvelous thing to explore

Yep!


the woods wrote:for this reason i have long liked to speculate, (and i'm far out on a limb here because i don't think scott frost, the author of the "dale cooper: my life my tapes" tie-in book , could have foreseen how S2 would end), that even though cooper is not taken by bob until well into his visit to twin peaks - that, because he is taken by bob, bob now has access to cooper's entire timeline: his past, present, and future. so not only is cooper (as bob) most likely directly responsible for the murder of caroline, he is also responsible for another murder in that book. of course this is not entirely consistent with the leland/bob timeline as it applies to time in twin peaks, but does it have to be?
i do think the beings from "the other place" are just as associated with cooper as they are with laura

Interesting. However, if they were that powerful, they'd be, like, everywhere. I think time flows differently in Another Place, but with small discrete injections into our reality e.g. Cooper meeting COOPER on CCTV in FWWM, but that's about all they can manage, and for that, they need a whole lot of energy (although, it results in a different timeline nevertheless).


the woods wrote:at least some of the evil that takes place in twin peaks during S1 and S2 is something that came there with agent cooper, and i find it not unreasonable to speculate these beings saw his innocence and its potential for their purposes, and that they knew what was going to happen to him, or at the very least, set that course of events into motion.

I think that's scapegoating. Cooper was clearly a champion of all things good. Cooper failed in one major way: he was too amorous, which considering his top tier profession, is shocking. BUT that doesn't make him the heart of darkness that you just described!
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby the woods » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:01 pm

strangerdanger is a better name anyway probably.

i wasn't trying to suggest that just because you may have seen or felt something that it was not real, even if you did imagine it. imagination and dreams are definitely a real and quantifiable part of reality as far as i am concerned. what is "real" in the sense that most people use that word has more to do with what we may choose to pay attention to, than with how tangible it might be.

i don't know enough about the wormwood mythos to comment on what exactly parsons and cameron expected. i think they defintiely saw "wormwood" as a place (although it is also an excellent resident's album). i believe they saw it as another planet so there could be something to it as an idea in twin peaks, as per the jack parson's quote in the "secret history of twin peaks" promo. it depends i guess on what mark frost thinks about things like that. i remember (i think) him being asked on the donahue interview show whether he believed in the supernatural and he said he does not, although he finds it interesting to think about...which is pretty much how i feel about it too. cameron appears in a short (about 10 minutes) film by curtis harrington called "the wormwood star" which may explain some of it. it seems to me to be grounded in parson's crowley-ism though, and although i read one book by crowley i did not find it very interesting and never read anything else. i'm not sure the video explains much though it is kind of weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmQxOw__yk

she also appears in "night tide" a feature by harrington which stars a very young dennis hopper, so there is another lynch connection, although it is a pretty far fetched one.

by calling cooper "an innocent" i don't feel i was suggesting he was the "heart of darkness". i do think that his innocence and some of the things you mentioned as well -like his goodness and his amorousness - may be part of the reason that the beings from "the other place" find him so attractive, and why he is taken...and why windom for instance is so quickly discarded by them. i think windom is only there to bring cooper closer to them. bob/leland's corruption of laura is a big part of his purpose with her, and i think the corruption that bob/cooper would be capable of, is even greater, which makes him a much more compelling host for them.
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby The Archivist » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:04 pm

...I do believe the new novel is proving you right...!
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby Aqua » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:12 pm

StrangerDanger wrote:
the woods wrote:for this reason i have long liked to speculate, (and i'm far out on a limb here because i don't think scott frost, the author of the "dale cooper: my life my tapes" tie-in book , could have foreseen how S2 would end), that even though cooper is not taken by bob until well into his visit to twin peaks - that, because he is taken by bob, bob now has access to cooper's entire timeline: his past, present, and future. so not only is cooper (as bob) most likely directly responsible for the murder of caroline, he is also responsible for another murder in that book. of course this is not entirely consistent with the leland/bob timeline as it applies to time in twin peaks, but does it have to be?
i do think the beings from "the other place" are just as associated with cooper as they are with laura

Interesting. However, if they were that powerful, they'd be, like, everywhere. I think time flows differently in Another Place, but with small discrete injections into our reality e.g. Cooper meeting COOPER on CCTV in FWWM, but that's about all they can manage, and for that, they need a whole lot of energy (although, it results in a different timeline nevertheless).


the woods wrote:by calling cooper "an innocent" i don't feel i was suggesting he was the "heart of darkness". i do think that his innocence and some of the things you mentioned as well -like his goodness and his amorousness - may be part of the reason that the beings from "the other place" find him so attractive, and why he is taken...and why windom for instance is so quickly discarded by them. i think windom is only there to bring cooper closer to them. bob/leland's corruption of laura is a big part of his purpose with her, and i think the corruption that bob/cooper would be capable of, is even greater, which makes him a much more compelling host for them.
[quote="the woods"]

If of interest, posted previously some thoughts on the above here -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3044#p48970

this (as well as occultism/esotericism stuff btw) ties up to a wider discussion on how lynch's work explores and utilizes parallels with laws of physics in general, as explored say very usefully and fruit-bearingly in martha nochimson's book lynch swerves. Basically, broaching each of the main postulates of physics, he has characters in multiple positions at the same time mirroring the way particles move as per the pertaining theory of quantums, he plays with the theory of relativity by positing that relative ventures into the past are not impossible, and he also explores (a favorite) direction of time issues. with the last, apart from simpler exercises such as mulholland drive, in twin peaks it can be taken say that lodge creatures are amalgamations of jungian collective doings which accumulate that needed power in the future and then can inexplainably use it going back in time as to almost validate themselves (a variation of chicken and egg dynamic really, what comes first and what spurs the other).

So say the more they manage to corrupt somebody as unguarded (presum) as coop was, and use all his innocence to make him a strong (by building his evil side on the basis of his weakish good side) double-triple-quadruple agent of theirs infiltrated strongly in the real world and do multiple evil therein, the more power they will gain with time. But also due to the relative presence of the lodge outside the time (as per relativity theory one would guess) they are able to use it going back in time - which in the usual world terms would mean that the more some doing is possible for performing by every individual tomorrow, the greater the sum of that directly or indirectly affects everyone in the vicinity today (and will be seen in the new season just how well a physics-oriented cooper has thought about this and learned to cope with it - or not). The question obviously being then what is the real direction of time.

What is not explored to the point of confirmation i think (although am no specialist either in physics at all, and don't remember the book that well) is whether the different timelines are possible, as indeed speculated here and elsewhere (since the prevailing theory seemed to state that the possibility of these, but not the actuality, exists?). Hedgehog day possibilities for everyone involved, with the existing physics laws somehow locking everybody up inmthe self-destroyung timelines time after time, and overlapping, etc. My own previous deduction has led to a thought that possibility-wise this def can be explored, what with the repeating occurences such as a good german one, but maybe with some link to an in-the-end prevailing timeline.

But irrespectively, indirectly - and refreshingly! - this (and i may again be completely technically wrong about this) at a first sight, by confirming the very fact of the similarity between the laws of physics and real world dynamics as per above, seems to prove that we are NOT living in a simulation :D the latter one obv being a crescendo of today for many, but paraphrasing tp/lynch themselves, thankfully these seem to be two similar instances, but pertaining to different objects of inquiry, and thus can be usefully treated as coincidences .. (in case the new season doesn't prove even this wrong, along with everything else)
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby the woods » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:12 pm

i won't be able to order my copy of "the secret history" until monday so i am staying away from most of the info about it until i have it in my ugly little paws, but i am pleased/sad to hear i might be right - pleased that i was able to pick up on something that the author may be carrying thru...but also sad since i feel sorry for cooper! he is such a great character and the sort of character you like to put your faith in. so it's really sad if he is being betrayed - especially if he's being betrayed by himself!

i'm still new to the forum, so thanks for sending me the link to the previous discussion. i have mainly been following this one and the non-spoiler thread about S3, trying to avoid too much info about some things. i am thinking maybe the episode threads will pick up here more when showtime starts repeating them...and people start really gearing up for S3. then i look forward to those discussions more.

i haven't read "lynch swerves" but will definitely add that to my reading list.

physics and quantum mechanics are definitely not my field and my understanding of quantum time theory is pretty limited, and even if i knew everything about it i still probably would not understand it very well. but i would agree that it is certainly possible, in a quantum theory way..or at least in a string theory way, that multiple versions of the events of cooper's past and future might exist based on changes made to his past (or future to the extent that it relies on his past) and that could certainly be intentional depending on how much attention is paid to them. it is definitely true as far as string theory is concerned. in a quantum experiment, any number of timelines might be called into existence and also abandoned - depending on who is observing (? maybe) ..although it becomes complicated for me since quantum theory would implicate the observer's role in what is being observed. if this is the case..who is observing? cooper? the giant? the owls? the audience?...judy maybe?
anyway, i'm not savvy enough to be suggesting that. my thoughts were simply that the parallel timelines of the "real" world and the world of the lodges might coincide in such a way that once an entity like bob has access to cooper, it has access to cooper's completely old fashioned newtonian past and future (although this would not exclude a quantum view either) - perhaps it is just a much simpler explanation for my not-so-physics-informed-mind. but clearly cooper/windom/annie, (for instance and so perhaps all people), require a very specific set of circumstances to enter the waiting room including a certain state of mind as well as access to a specific location in the woods around twin peaks: glastonbury grove (another possible reference to parsons by the way, who was obsessed with arthurian legend and what i was speculating about earlier), as well as a specific point in "time" as it is can be measured by a calendar. i would assume there are other access points and times for people too. but once there, all bets are off when it comes to our time - newtonian, quantum, or otherwise. if that's true for people, then it's most likely doubly true for the inhabitants of the lodge (if indeed they come from there - they may very well be using the waiting room in the same way cooper and windom are - as a bridge to somewhere else, albiet their use is more informed).
for instance, i don't necessarily think that because caroline appears asking "who killed me?" that the past has changed and now cooper killed her rather than windom. i think cooper (or dopplecooper/bob) always killed her. and always will - in all foreseeable futures, pasts, or presents. it could be that bob's fluidity in his timeline is as physically natural as cooper's lack of it is in his. so, and again it may be my limited grasp of your theory that i am speaking here, because bob has access to cooper's timeline doesn't mean he has to change cooper's past to activate his intentions - it could actually mean he doesn't have to change cooper's past. he now is cooper's past, the past cooper has always had.
i definitely do agree that it will be interesting to find out how the series deals with this if it does (and i think it will have to to at least some extent), especially in the light of how much the creators have themselves matured in the intervening years since cherry pie and coffee co-existed with pain and creamed corn in their own splendid and bittersweet edens.

if multiple timeline do play out, as you suggest - then i am not sure whether to hope for an "in the end prevailing timeline", as you put it, or not. i am a little leery of an "ending"...but yes, it could certainly just start over. another german jump start wouldn't bother me a bit. but i think a lot of other people will go crazy if there is no closure...but maybe crazy is not so bad! i do agree there will be at least two "objects of inquiry". i remember a film comment article that came out not long after S2 that speculated on the last woeful shot of cooper's looking into the mirror, and bob being there. the author's gist was that although it is bob's face..it is cooper's own failings (his fear, his mistakes, his loss of caroline and now annie) that he is really seeing. to some extent i agree with that -in the context of the story, bob is real but in the context of character -bob is also cooper's realization of a part of himself. and that part of him has always been there. i can't see how lynch and frost could not examine both of those points to some extent, ...but since the possibility exists that they will not -they also clearly won't!
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby StrangerDanger » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:47 pm

OK long post here, l shall take a long break after this as it's hurting my brain:


the woods wrote:i wasn't trying to suggest that just because you may have seen or felt something that it was not real, even if you did imagine it. imagination and dreams are definitely a real and quantifiable part of reality as far as i am concerned. what is "real" in the sense that most people use that word has more to do with what we may choose to pay attention to, than with how tangible it might be.


True enough. Don't worry though, l can take a well reasoned knock, l wasn't trying to convince you that l met an Aztec demon while on shrooms. Actually, what l described was likely an epileptic fit (l had rather a large dose of those home grown shrooms, l had grown a huge amount, many years ago and l no longer do drugs, but that was my first shroom trip and a few subsequent trips too):

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/li ... lin-grant/
Title: Book Review: A Smell Of Burning: The Story Of Epilepsy by Colin Grant

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q= ... e+epilepsy
TITLE: Google search on smelling smoke as part of an epileptic fit

To be frank: I experienced it and l myself hardly believe it. Seeing isn't quite believing, it needs to be seen again and again and again and again and again and again ... but l'd rather not!




the woods wrote:i don't know enough about the wormwood mythos to comment on what exactly parsons and cameron expected. i think they defintiely saw "wormwood" as a place (although it is also an excellent resident's album). i believe they saw it as another planet so there could be something to it as an idea in twin peaks, as per the jack parson's quote in the "secret history of twin peaks" promo.


I'd heard about Wormwood a lot when l was YouTubing for videos about Comet ISON a few years back, expecting a terrific lightshow. All these tinfoilers were saying it was Wormwood aka Nibiru aka Sleep Gas.

But l recently researched it after reading your posts and it turns out Wormwood was mentiond in the Bible, in the Book of Revelations. It's a cursed star or comet, which will poison a third of the waters on earth and many people will die from it. Called Wormwood because it will make the waters bitter (absinthe is bitter) and also because Wormwood is a Biblical metaphor for calamity. Thing is, comets produce a lot of cyanide gas. Could this be a long-cycle comet which the Earth passes through the tail / wake of?

And the connection with Secret History and Cameron? Not a clue. It gets curioser and curioser.



the woods wrote:cameron appears in a short (about 10 minutes) film by curtis harrington called "the wormwood star" which may explain some of it. it seems to me to be grounded in parson's crowley-ism though ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlmQxOw__yk


Weird. I see Marjorie Cameron doing some sort of occult ritual. I notice she looks severe and eldritch. I notice the phoenix and some sort of dragon depicted. These latter are symbols of cosmic upheaval, tumultous phenomena in the heavens (ref.: Symbols of an Alien Sky video series, by the Thunderbolts Project, on YouTube - it's a unified approach to plasma physics and world mythology - best video series ever).

The tattoo on Gerard's left (sinister) arm was said to be a geometric shape composed of triangles, right? And the symbol on the title screen of Wormwood Star is a geometric shape composed of triangles. Perhaps the Babalon working was something to do with Wormwood, which would mean Wormwood is not a comet (or maybe it is ... Heaven's Gate anyone?), but a planet full of aliens, or a portal to another dimension e.g. a mini black hole or a stargate monolith floating by Jupiter / its moon Europa (2001). It has to be something which can destroy Earth in its wake.



the woods wrote:it depends i guess on what mark frost thinks about things like that. i remember (i think) him being asked on the donahue interview show whether he believed in the supernatural and he said he does not, although he finds it interesting to think about...which is pretty much how i feel about it too.


Fascinating. I used to love reading books by British authors Alan Garner and Susan Cooper. They wrote fantasy fiction for young adults / adult teens, linking this world with the world of Celtic (especially Welsh) mythology. Neither of those authors believed in the Celtic gods ofc, but they really brought the Celtic mythology to life, in a series of books conveying mysteries of love and unspeakable sadness, and stifling fear. I've never viewed the land in the same way since, it gained a magical quality, the mountains, the tors, the rivers, the downs, the forests. So yeah, Mark Frost saying he doesn't believe in the world he creates, doesn't diminish him as a fiction author. Even as a non-fiction author, you don't have to be Roman to write a Roman History textbook.



the woods wrote:although i read one book by crowley i did not find it very interesting and never read anything else. i'm not sure the video explains much though it is kind of weird.


I've so far only read one book about Crowley, that's all. It was fascinating. I've got more on my reading list and hope to fathom this guy before l die. Not that l particularly like Crowley, l don't yet have an opinion.



the woods wrote:for this reason i have long liked to speculate, ... cooper ... is taken by bob, bob now has access to cooper's entire timeline: his past, present, and future. so not only is cooper (as bob) most likely directly responsible for the murder of caroline, he is also responsible for another murder in that book. of course this is not entirely consistent with the leland/bob timeline as it applies to time in twin peaks, but does it have to be?
i do think the beings from "the other place" are just as associated with cooper as they are with laura


StrangerDanger wrote:Interesting. However, if they were that powerful, they'd be, like, everywhere. I think time flows differently in Another Place, but with small discrete injections into our reality e.g. Cooper meeting COOPER on CCTV in FWWM, but that's about all they can manage, and for that, they need a whole lot of energy (although, it results in a different timeline nevertheless).


Wow, l've come to realise that the CERN video poster may have a method to his madness. Notice how CERN is circular and filled with electricity. Electricity passing through circles is a core theme of Twin Peaks / FWWM. But more to the point: a whole lot of energy being used to alter time, as per the Mandela effect, where we all believe Mandela died way before he died in the present timeline, and we all think Forrest Gump quotes his mother as saying "... life is like a box of chocolates" when in the present timeline, he in fact says "... life WAS like a box of chocolates". So, the YouTube uploader's video was uncannily consistent within itself, and with Twin Peaks / FWWM.

Disclaimer: I do NOT believe CERN to be a peccable two-bit timeline transforming torus and l believe the Mandela Effect = people picking out irrelevant misheard factoids and homophonous quotes. Also, all those time-travel storylines in all movies feel like an amateurish 1980s film plot deus ex machina. EXCEPT see a few lines below for how it might pan out in Series 3 / the Secret History book without being a crude 1980s movie copout.

However, if time was controlled, as l've just mentioned above, the controller would control everything in that universe, surely.

I've stumbled across a new line of thought here, topic: "SPOILERS: Inconsistencies in the Secret History of Twin Peaks"
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3287&start=60#p62052

I flesh out another dude's theory. In "The Secret History" book (l might have to read the canonical books now!), setting the scene for Series 3 as well:

Evil finally completely defeats Good. All symmetries finally broken, the current universe winds up (because Evil becomes unbalanced force, whereas Good seeks to love and nurture Evil, no force - as per Agent Albert Rosenfield's quote somewhere below) and from the resultant singularity (black hole) emerge 2 new universes: a positively existing universe and an antimatter universe.

One is an abstraction of the other, just like how in the Black Lodge, we see The Man turning his back on Cooper, and faking tears, and then he turns around and tells Cooper that gum he likes is coming back in style. All abstractions for events soon to be in Cooper's real life e.g. Leland Palmer's fake crying at the Great Northern Hotel, when he senses Cooper creeping up on him, and the penultimate Leland scene where they all meet up at the Roadhouse (?) and the old man tells Leland that gum he likes has come back in style.

And so ... the cycle begins again. Eternal chess? Or wait, did the Black Lodge finally win it all game, set and match?

[Whoever wins it all can control time. But then again, if it's just that the both Lodges begin again, and the Black Lodge gets a new antimatter universe full of abstractions of the White Lodge's universe, then, from the perspective of the White Lodge, the Black Lodge is time jumping (manipulating time), BUT: perhaps one lodge is linear, the other is an abstraction (including what appears to be "time jumping" relative to the other lodge's "linear" universe), and we don't know which is which. Or maybe both are linear, in their own right, and neither is really an abstraction of the other. Both control their own time.]



Aqua wrote:viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3044#p48970

this (as well as occultism/esotericism stuff btw) ties up to a wider discussion on how lynch's work explores and utilizes parallels with laws of physics in general, as explored say very usefully and fruit-bearingly in martha nochimson's book lynch swerves.


Noted, l'd like to read this book one day.



Aqua wrote:Basically, broaching each of the main postulates of physics, he has characters in multiple positions at the same time mirroring the way particles move as per the pertaining theory of quantums, he plays with the theory of relativity by positing that relative ventures into the past are not impossible,


It might be possible if there were a dipole of 2 worlds, one matter, one antimatter or one White Lodge-ruled, one Black Lodge-ruled.

The worlds - the Black Lodge and White Lodge - coincide at nexuses, such as Twin Peaks and Shambhala in Tibet. Thus, in Twin Peaks you have the ETs, latter MIKE, Briggs, and the Bookhouse Boys representing the White Lodge, and the Black Lodge = BOB, LMFAP, former MIKE, Windom Earle, the Renault clan, Ben Horne, and so on. Then you get the random people caught up in between the two opposing Lodges e.g. Laura Palmer, Theresa Banks, Annie, the thieving nurse etc. and all the tertiary characters whose lives serve as the platform for the above characters [poor Harold Smith - one of the only decent guys, he never cheated on his wife, he never lied, he was never violent to anybody, even when given cause he'd turn on himself instead. But face it, he ultimately murdered an innocent - even though it was suicide].

Similarly in the other nexus in Tibet, you have rival groups of priests / sorcerors: the Bonpas (White Lodge) and the Dugpas (Black Lodge).

OK so that's where the 2 lodges coincide. Apart from that though, perhaps they each rule in their own universes (dimensions). These universes perhaps run parallel to each other, and are thus abstractions of one another, i.e. one seems linear, the other seems a garbled timescale version of the linear one - and vice-versa.

OK and then you have some guy that manages to flit between both universes. That is Cooper (to be fair, not Windom Earle or Jeffreys too, because Cooper existed in the White Lodge and Black Lodge *both*). Something Cooper does perhaps precipitates the victory of the Black Lodge over the White Lodge. The deadlock is broken, the Black Lodge unravel the White Lodge's universe quickly (this could be Season 3) and then ... l don't know. Maybe this paradoxically causes both universes to cease. Maybe they implode, and the game starts anew. Or maybe the Black Lodge gain absolute unending victory in Series 3.

I think that bolsters Martha Nochimson's theory of Lynch as you've just described it.



Aqua wrote:and he also explores (a favorite) direction of time issues. with the last, apart from simpler exercises such as mulholland drive, in twin peaks it can be taken say that lodge creatures are amalgamations of jungian collective doings which accumulate that needed power in the future and then can inexplainably use it going back in time as to almost validate themselves (a variation of chicken and egg dynamic really, what comes first and what spurs the other).


There's also the excellent nonlinear film Memento [dir.: Christopher Nolan].

Key to it all is: schizophrenia (?? well, Windom Earle was known to be crazy, and ultimately with delusions of grandeur, or maybe the Black Lodge dimension is a schizophrenic world), reality is all in the mind (in Memento: amnesia versus "true" reality versus the hellish reality we create for ourselves by our own acts), death as a movement from one reality to another (l believe Mulholland Drive was the dying thoughts of the blonde actress as she shoots herself in the head and her entire life flashes by, and Twin Peaks acts like a Book of the Dead, guiding us from death to the afterlife).

And yeah there's some sort of uncanny Tarot / Jungian thing going on too, i see that too. Perhaps Martha Nochimson's book delves into it?



the woods wrote:by calling cooper "an innocent" i don't feel i was suggesting he was the "heart of darkness". i do think that his innocence and some of the things you mentioned as well -like his goodness and his amorousness


? No, l meant, you were suggesting that he caused all the bad things to unfold in Twin Peaks. That's what Josie Packard and Jacque Renault's brother said too, and why both he and Josie tried to kill Cooper.

His amorousness = his philandering, he kept getting involved with local girls when he was on the job. Cooper's boss Gordon Cole of course was worse for wasting no time kissing Shelly but somehow l see that as comic relief, a funny counterpoint to Dale Cooper's relationships.



the woods wrote:may be part of the reason that the beings from "the other place" find him so attractive, and why he is taken...and why windom for instance is so quickly discarded by them. i think windom is only there to bring cooper closer to them. bob/leland's corruption of laura is a big part of his purpose with her, and i think the corruption that bob/cooper would be capable of, is even greater, which makes him a much more compelling host for them.


Aqua wrote:So say the more they manage to corrupt somebody as unguarded (presum) as coop was, and use all his innocence to make him a strong (by building his evil side on the basis of his weakish good side) double-triple-quadruple agent of theirs infiltrated strongly in the real world and do multiple evil therein, the more power they will gain with time. But also due to the relative presence of the lodge outside the time (as per relativity theory one would guess) they are able to use it going back in time


Yes guys, that seems correct. He was used as a pawn. The Black Lodge needed a trojan horse to send into the world of the White Lodge, and therefore gain total everlasting victory.



Aqua wrote:which in the usual world terms would mean that the more some doing is possible for performing by every individual tomorrow, the greater the sum of that directly or indirectly affects everyone in the vicinity today (and will be seen in the new season just how well a physics-oriented cooper has thought about this and learned to cope with it - or not). The question obviously being then what is the real direction of time.


I really hope Series 3 doesn't rewrite time like this.

It destroys the beautiful ending in FWWM, where a failed Cooper meets a disappointed Laura, and they both alchemically transform to gold in each other's presence, through the agency of the angel. I like to think they both saw the entire timeline of Twin Peaks on a TV set and saw how ultimately, love conquered all, and then Laura and Cooper embarked on a lovers' journey themselves, one which never ends.

The only way to keep these divergent views together is if a chaotic timeline is not time being warped per se, but rather, the Black Lodge's universe being linear, but compared to the White Lodge's timeline, it looks chaotic. What happens is that the Black Lodge conquers the White Lodge.

But what then happens to Cooper and Laura, who are now on a lovers' journey? Well, that journey would be eternal. I can only assume that some vestige of the White Lodge survives in Cooper / Laura's union beyond death, and so despite the victory of the Black Lodge, there survives a speck of the White Lodge that the Black Lodge can never extinguish nor comprehend (Love, self sacrifice "fell a victim" as the Black Lodge thinks but really, they live forever in each others' arms). And so, the cycle begins again, with 2 new parallel universes / dimensions and the war tally continues.

So basically what l'm trying to say is, l think in Season 3, the world will fall to the Black Lodge because of Cooper's and Laura's stupid self-sacrifice.

But, perhaps in Season 3 we'll see, as l think we already have at the end of FWWM, that the self-sacrifice for love, ultimately saves the White Lodge and the Black Lodge is shown to be unable to fathom the White Lodge. Without the White Lodge to visibly hold it in check, the Black Lodge becomes unbalanced force, and thus destroys itself, whereas the White Lodge seeks to be mutually inclusive and loving, not forceful, Perhaps Agent Albert Rosenfeld prophetically rolls out the ultimate blow in this entire affair:

"I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman."

[Dale Cooper: [to Sheriff Truman] Albert's path is a strange and difficult one.] <-- Scene is set for Cooper?




Postscript:

Aqua wrote:What is not explored to the point of confirmation i think (although am no specialist either in physics at all, and don't remember the book that well) is whether the different timelines are possible, as indeed speculated here and elsewhere (since the prevailing theory seemed to state that the possibility of these, but not the actuality, exists?). Hedgehog day possibilities for everyone involved, with the existing physics laws somehow locking everybody up inmthe self-destroyung timelines time after time, and overlapping, etc. My own previous deduction has led to a thought that possibility-wise this def can be explored, what with the repeating occurences such as a good german one, but maybe with some link to an in-the-end prevailing timeline.

But irrespectively, indirectly - and refreshingly! - this (and i may again be completely technically wrong about this) at a first sight, by confirming the very fact of the similarity between the laws of physics and real world dynamics as per above, seems to prove that we are NOT living in a simulation :D the latter one obv being a crescendo of today for many, but paraphrasing tp/lynch themselves, thankfully these seem to be two similar instances, but pertaining to different objects of inquiry, and thus can be usefully treated as coincidences .. (in case the new season doesn't prove even this wrong, along with everything else)


While l may be wrong, l think it's better to think of 2 separate parallel dimensions, one for the Black Lodge, one for the White Lodge, as proposed a few paragraphs up. Each seems chaotic to the other. Black Lodge ultimately succeeds, but the post script is: they forgot the power of Love as emblemised by the beautiful ending in FWWM.

Your theory destroys all that, makes the chaotic timeline absolute, i.e. makes it THE timeline, the only timeline. It's schizophrenic and FUBAR (no offence to you ofc). I feel dizzy just thinking about it, it's hard to fathom. Also it throws the beautiful ending in FWWM out thru the airlock. It throws the baby out with the bathwater. The world of Twin Peaks eats itself and craps all over the audience. It's certainly possible, but l hope it doesn't end like that. We shall see ;)
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby secretlettermkr » Thu May 04, 2017 11:06 pm

Cameron Parsons appears in this masterpiece by the genius Kenneth Anger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgnRr170ERM


And here's her marvelous artwork: http://deitch.nyc/

Jack Parson as the Dark Angel


Cameron%20Dark%20Angel.jpg
Cameron%20Dark%20Angel.jpg (551.94 KiB) Viewed 4940 times


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy8GpAUZdA0
Last edited by secretlettermkr on Fri May 05, 2017 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby the woods » Fri May 05, 2017 9:45 am

marjorie cameron also has a nice part in curtis harrington's "night tide" , a low budget 1960 a.i.p. production w/ dennis hopper and linda lawson. it has gained a pretty good cult following over the years, although it is often critisized for being slow moving. i like it though, and it would be of interest to anyone interested in cameron. she is a pretty striking presense in a small role. i think it might be harrington's first feature.
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Re: Supernaturalism / Occultism in Twin Peaks

Postby secretlettermkr » Fri May 05, 2017 10:02 am

the woods wrote:marjorie cameron also has a nice part in curtis harrington's "night tide" , a low budget 1960 a.i.p. production w/ dennis hopper and linda lawson. it has gained a pretty good cult following over the years, although it is often critisized for being slow moving. i like it though, and it would be of interest to anyone interested in cameron. she is a pretty striking presense in a small role. i think it might be harrington's first feature.

ill check it! thanks

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