"Do your palms ever itch?" All things Audrey

[Brad D]

"its what we call a real three hanky crime"

[blair]

blair, also no one's opinion is wrong, but weird that you felt the bedroom scene is when the romance ended. I always thought (and assumed the writers thought) that this is when they were deepening the connection beyond the flirty cat and mouse scenes and making it a deeper, richer connection. And it's a basic tennet to drama, especially in a serial/soap opera: keep your lovers apart.

First thank you very much for the interview...well, it seem that it was for a potential second season, we are agree about that, but that don't explain when they have proposed this romance, because lot of plot have been planned way before to shoot the scene (like a potential storie)... for example it was clearly already planned that Nadine will have memory problem... during the burial episode in the first season, she don't remember James...my point it's maybe the decision was earlier (probably with the bed scene) because everything was planned in advance...

now, if the Kyle decision was taken just before the second season (they say to have planned six episodes for a passionate romance), well I understand him completly, because to have a character who is supposed to be hero change his moral value like that and finally accept, after a moralist speech during the first season, to sleep with a high school girl...well, I find that very limit and more ridiculous that the introduction of the character of Annie (nobody have forced them to chose the nunnery story).

For the bed scene, well, after that I have always seen a change in his attitude about Audrey, first he like to play the flirt game with her...but after the bed scene, he become just friendly (he say clearly that he see her just like a friend), we see the authors have tried to let open a potiental love story (the speech of Cooper about her smile)...but I have always seen that like a change attitude of the character about her...imagine the sequence when the Cooper have said to her Father that his attitude is pure about her...and two weeks later to sleep with her...that would have been weird for him.

That make lot of change of mind for a character who is supposed to be an hero, now for to be honest, I would have really curious to read exactly what they have planned between them...it would be a big shock for a tv show in the early 90's to see such a weird couple...but it's clear that Kyle has a big problem with that (well according this interview, he have a problem with the story, not a conspiracy stuff against Fenn)....

I think he have found too out of his character to do that, and for to be honest, I think the romance card would have been played too soon...they could have easily continued to play the lolita/romance stuff for again two seasons without probelms...but they want directly that Cooper have a sexual affair with her...the agent of FBI is in twin peaks just two month for a murder affair and find the time to sleep with a high school girl...well, I see Kyle problem with that... now if they have taken their times with this romance, let Audrey character to grow up etc for 4th or 5th season...I don't think Kyle would have a problem....but apparently the authors have a special need for a love story for to introduce Cooper worst nightmare again with the black Lodge.

Thank you very very much everybody (specially Audrey Hornes) for to have taken the time to reply to my comment.

[blair]

Even if Kyle felt that way in the first season, it was not apparent enough to the writers to stop them from plotting out a bulk of the second season.

Yeah, it definitely seems like all this drama unfolded during Season 2. And Lynch talked about his disappointment with some of the actors (though never naming names) in one or two interviews. I remember one where he said something to the effect of, "You learn a lot about your cast when you go into the second season of a popular show."

It's been said that certain cast members got big egos after all the great press and ratings of the first seven episodes, and became difficult as the second season went into production. And when that happens, even the "well-behaved" cast members can start to feel upset that other people are getting special treatment.

I have to believe that sort of friction and ego on the part of some of the actors was one of the things that soured Lynch on continuing with the series. I don't think it was the primary problem by any means, but just think about how different it must have felt for him making season 2. The network people suddenly want to dictate storylines (revealing Laura Palmer's killer), the actors want to dictate storylines... what a mess.

For Lynch, for what I have read, he have lost interest of the tv show after ABC have forced him to reveal the killer...it's not the actors his problem, Kyle himself say that Frost and specially Lynch have lost interest about this TV show after the Laura Palmer killer story and he have felt that they have abandonned them (the rest of the crews too)...now it's not something rare that a tv show, a movie have been influenced by the production, the casting etc...it's normal to change a script...and if twin peaks would have survived, I think these script changes would have been anecdotic...but because the fate of the tv show, I think most try to find someone "guilty"...sometimes it's the actors, sometimes it's Lynch etc...sadly the situation was already chaotic because of the Channel decision.

I think it's not necessary a ego think, more to think what is good for the show...the authors seem to think they were angels in this situation, but I'm sorry, Kyle request was logical in this situation...maybe the romance was mediocre and not well done, lot of their works have been changed by David Lynch too, specially for the last episode, but it was not a problem...their decision was not always the good ones.

Now, with or without Kyle change script, the show was sadly doomed.

[Brad D]

i have always been frustrated with the fact that Audrey was written into a hole from the pilot. it serves no importance to the story that she was a high school student. she very well could have been just a 20 year old that works at her dad's hotel. aside from the pilot she is shown in school maybe once or twice...such a shame. had she just been out of high school what would their excuse be then?

understandably though, i dont think they knew what they were going to do with the character when they filmed the pilot as she came off as a purely immature and childish pixie, when all of a sudden she's this femme fatale bombshell who wants to help with the investigation starting with episode 1.

[entropy]

i have always been frustrated with the fact that Audrey was written into a hole from the pilot. it serves no importance to the story that she was a high school student. she very well could have been just a 20 year old that works at her dad's hotel. aside from the pilot she is shown in school maybe once or twice...such a shame. had she just been out of high school what would their excuse be then?

understandably though, i dont think they knew what they were going to do with the character when they filmed the pilot as she came off as a purely immature and childish pixie, when all of a sudden she's this femme fatale bombshell who wants to help with the investigation starting with episode 1.

Yea, it's definitely frustrating because aside from the pilot, they could retroactively explain away pretty much all of the inconsistencies to make that idea work. Have the whole "I'm 18" thing be a lie that Audrey uses in her game-playing and flirting early on, just trying to make Cooper really uncomfortable. Fits the manipulative nature of her character nicely.

As for the bathroom scene with her and Donna, I don't know. Maybe she's the weird older girl who shows up in the bathroom to smoke cigarettes. Maybe she's the "bad girl" who buys smokes for Donna. Or just pretend it never happened. Given the amount of time that would have elapsed between airings, you could probably get away with it.

[blair]

Well, I don't think it would have been judicious to ignore previous sequence, that would have been weird, specially with a tv show in the quality of twin peaks...she was clearly an high school girl, have the same age that Laura etc...

For the ego, change script etc..., according Miguel Ferrer, it was very complicated to change lines "without high livel meeting would occur"...so I think there are in some ways the authors who don't like to change their script and the actors who would like to change for to be more cumfortable with their characters....again nothing dramatic in a context of a tv show.

In Wrapped in Plastic 58, Engels have clearly stated that peoples in the casting and the crews were very friendly, there weren't any big fight between cast members, and they were very close in general etc...well that change of lot of what we can read in twin peaks board about how many peoples in the casting have an ego and hate each others or make conspiracy between them...I think lot of things have been exagerrated to explain the end of this tv show.

[entropy]

Obviously it's awkward trying to explain such a memorable scene in the context of a suddenly older Audrey, especially with some of the dialogue. Yea it's not the best idea ever conceived to simply let the scene hang there with no retroactive explanation, but it's just one scene and without the pilot there's just enough plausible deniability for them to say that we can't be 100% certain it's the high school bathroom.

Ignoring (for lack of a better word) one scene seems a whole lot less weird than ignoring 14 episodes of plot development - which is exactly what we got.

EDIT: Eh, now that I think about it, there's probably too much to ret-con to have that even be the least bit feasible. It's a real stretch. Was worth a shot though.

[blair]

Obviously it's awkward trying to explain such a memorable scene in the context of a suddenly older Audrey, especially with some of the dialogue. Yea it's not the best idea ever conceived to simply let the scene hang there with no retroactive explanation, but it's just one scene and without the pilot there's just enough plausible deniability for them to say that we can't be 100% certain it's the high school bathroom.

Ignoring (for lack of a better word) one scene seems a whole lot less weird than ignoring 14 episodes of plot development - which is exactly what we got.

You can't explain a change age with "some dialogues", she was clearly the same age that Laura (that work better with the jalousy thing), there are the bathroom scene of an high school, the comment of Cooper about how a young girl like her should be in school, the pilot, that lot of things to ignore or to transform completly.

For the 14 episodes of plot development, well, the change of romance don't have contradicted directly the others sequences but the characters have simply changed their feeling (something very easy to do, specially with the Cooper speech during the famous bed scene), so the comparaison don't work...so yes to change the age of an character without explanation is lot more of weird that to change the feeling between two characters...there are one thing you can easily explain (in real life, lot of peoples don't keep the same love), but not the change age of an important protagonist.

[Audrey Horne]

woah, everybody's going to town on this.

blair, you mentioned

for example it was clearly already planned that Nadine will have memory problem... during the burial episode in the first season, she don't remember James...my point it's maybe the decision was earlier (probably with the bed scene) because everything was planned in advance...

I don't think anything was planned beyond the structure of the first season -which was plotted once Frost and Lynch got the greenlight for their pilot. Again, that's just my speculation. For example there was not a Black Lodge mapped out, there wasn't a Windom Earle etc. (otherwise they would be alluded to in the season to a degree). Instead I think they reviewed moments they had in the first season and were inspired by them. So when they remember and see they have a nice moment where Nadine can't remember James, it jolts the writers to explore that as a possible plot point. When Cooper is at the shooting range and alludes to a woman from his past, it's doubtful they knew it would be Caroline and Windom- just a juicy tidbit that they can explore later.

just like most likely a Black Lodge wasn't decided during the Summer of 1990, just a overall season arc that Cooper would have a partner come back, and Audrey, Cooper and Windom would be entangled in the plot.

And yeah, there's not much you can do since TV is a fluid art. Audrey was a character thrown in at the last minute because Lynch liked Fenn. And there was no thought of pairing her with Cooper, so she was stuck in high school. It was after the pilot and when Frost was shaping a season that things were reevaluated. Personally, it doesn't bother me because it's not grounded in realism but in stylized film genres. Audrey is in high school because it's a strong visual recalling Natalie Wood in Rebel Without a Cause, and not because it's going for documentary style exploration of real teens.

I know there's a instance where MacNamara (sp?) said in WIP that he asked what Frost's intention would have been for the "passionate romance" and Frost thought it would be more of Cooper teaching Audrey, and Lynch would probably explore more of Audrey's untapped 'power."

[blair]

The nature of their relationship (teacher figure etc...) don't would have changed the fact, that both characters should have been in a sexual relationship (according Engels, Kyle etc...), it would have been wrong, not in a realistic way, I'm aware that it's not a real world with the same code, but it would have been out of character for Dale Cooper, someone with high moral value, someone who have clearly stated that it would have been wrong to sleep with Audrey....a perfect hero who change his mind so easily and in a short time...that would have been weird.

I really like them together, but I think the authors have tried too soon to make them a couple, they could have been easily to be more patient and wait again 2 season, but so soon, the credibility of the character would have been badly hurted...I think it was the fear of Kyle M. about that, the lolita game was enough....but the author have wanted something more romantic, too directly...there are also the weird aspect of the relationship: an FBI agent who investigate the murder and the rape of an high school girl...have a passionate love story with an high school girl, I think I would have some difficulty to accept that (but it would have been interesting to see that in some way ).

I'm curious to learn more about their relationship, have you more detail about the story that the authors have planned ?

Now, maybe I'm not too sensitive about the end of their romance because I understand Kyle M. point of view, and also because I'm really a big fan of the second season (unlike lot of fans, I find that as good than the first season), and I really like Annie and Justice Wheeler, so for me it's not a big problem.

[Audrey Horne]

Believe it or not, I've never found or heard one statement saying from the writers or Frost that Cooper would sleep with Audrey. yes, "passionate" and "love affair" and consummate" were used but it's kind of TV speak for just getting the couple together officially. And when they did (or if) actually sleep together I'm sure it would be approached from an exploration from each of their character traits. I don't think Cooper would just shrug and jump in the sack.

going away for a couple days, but working on next entry. Promise this time.

[Audrey Horne]

Now, maybe I'm not too sensitive about the end of their romance because I understand Kyle M. point of view, and also because I'm really a big fan of the second season (unlike lot of fans, I find that as good than the first season), and I really like Annie and Justice Wheeler, so for me it's not a big problem.

Ah. I see. And I thought we could have been friends. No way now.

just kidding.

[blair]

Believe it or not, I've never found or heard one statement saying from the writers or Frost that Cooper would sleep with Audrey. yes, "passionate" and "love affair" and consummate" were used but it's kind of TV speak for just getting the couple together officially. And when they did (or if) actually sleep together I'm sure it would be approached from an exploration from each of their character traits. I don't think Cooper would just shrug and jump in the sack.

going away for a couple days, but working on next entry. Promise this time.

Well, I think about Engels comment about how they would have made her 19 years old (but she was already stated that she has just 18 in the show) for to "avoid illegal affair", for me it's pretty clear that they don't have in their mind just a platonic romance...and if they were a couple, sooner or later, they would have slept together (specially in twin peaks, with lot of romance were sexualized).

For the second season, I like it because of the surnatural element, it was clearly a huge inspiration for another successful tv show of the 90's, the x-files, specially the real confidential files like the blue book etc....but I think you have a big problem with John Justice Wheeler !!!!!!!!!! ....for to be honest, I like him because before everything the pulp/comicbook feeling of the character (I'm a huge comicbook fans)...just his name "John Justice Wheeler" deserve his own comicbook....I really like Billy Zane like an actor, and I have found his romance with Audrey, maybe superficial, but well done imo...but I completly understand the fan of Audrey/Cooper who hate Annie and him, it's natural.

[bosguy1981]

I've never had a strong feeling one way or the other about Cooper and Audrey getting into a romantic relationship. It's hard to judge it one way or another because it didn't happen and I'll never know exactly how the writers would have had it play out.

But I'll say this... I think it's a damn shame that at least the friendship/mentoring relationship between Cooper and Audrey wasn't even allowed to continue. Their chemistry onscreen was among the greatest I've seen on television or in movies. And the fact that they were suddenly separated and barely crossed paths in the second half of the series is a travesty.

[Fire]

Now, maybe I'm not too sensitive about the end of their romance because I understand Kyle M. point of view, and also because I'm really a big fan of the second season (unlike lot of fans, I find that as good than the first season), and I really like Annie and Justice Wheeler, so for me it's not a big problem.

This is the weirdest post I have read on these forums friend