Twin Peaks: FWWM - Audio, Video, and Subtitle Differences

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Twin Peaks: FWWM - Audio, Video, and Subtitle Differences

Postby gamingdave » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:04 am

Long time lurker, first time poster, so hi all.

Does anyone know of any sites comparing the region 1 and 2 box sets in terms of picture quality and anyt issues regarding default/forced languages or subs?

I'm going to Germany at the end of the week, so was thinking of picking up the German gold set. I generally prefer buying R2 DVDs, as whilst I have the ability to playback R1 disks on one of my players, my default (upscaling) DVD player only supports R2. That and I generaly prefer PAL over NTSC.

I know there are already a couple of threads regarding this release, but I couldnt see an answer in them, and it may be helpful to have a dedicated thread. If this question has already been answered then mods feel three to point me to it, and lock the thread.

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Postby Evenreven » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:43 am

I'm pretty sure the subs will follow the standard set by the Season 2 set - i.e. no forced subs, but unlike in the MK2 FWWM DVD English subs (if no subs are chosen) will show up in the Red Room scenes. They are not hardcoded, however, and, say, German subs will override the English ones. The German set is out and someone here should be able to confirm if this is the case.

I'm guessing picture quality will be virtually identical apart from PAL speedup, but I haven't seen a comparison anywhere. None posted on DVDbeaver yet.
Looks like the original stereo soundtrack is omitted to make room for mono German, Italian and French dubs.

I'll buy the Scandinavian R2 set tomorrow, but that one might be different from the German set. I see no reason why a Scandinavian set should include non-original language dubs, for instance (films and tv series are only subtitled here, thank god).

edit: THIS source claims that the box contains the English stereo too and I've seen several other sources claiming the same thing. I'm wondering how much space the mono soundtracks take up? Shouldn't something have to go to make room for all this?
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Postby gamingdave » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:47 am

Thanks for that. Ill probably only ever watch them in 5.1 as it goes, so missing the English original stereo mix wouldnt be an issue really. Im more concerned with the menus, and not having to switch off automatic german subs.

Whatever, it cant be as bad as the Spanish/Manga release, those menus were beyond painfull.
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Postby Evenreven » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:16 pm

Agreed! They were terrible. I found mine again when I was cleaning recently, and I popped a disc in my new player for fun. I couldn't even turn the damn things off, no matter how hard I tried. I could turn the Spanish subs off in my old player for some reason. And the picture quality is godawful.
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Postby TP fan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:22 am

I have the Dutch R2 box set. The content including log lady intro's (all of them this time) and special features are exactly the same as R1. The video is the newly mastered R1 mix (I can confirm this because Maddy sees only the blood on the carpet - when it was shown in the Netherlands on TV the morphing BOB was shown). The audio on the R2 set is German, English 5.1, English 2.0, Spanish and Italian. Subtitles are Dutch, Norwegian, Suomi, Swedish, Danish, German, English, Spanish, Italian.
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Postby Evenreven » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:36 am

Just bought the thing. Looks like the reported specs for the Scandinavian edition were wrong, we get German, Italian and Spanish dubs too and just the Finnish, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish back cover is different from other R2 versions. Pointless, but if the picture or audio quality doesn't suffer, it doesn't matter.
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Postby guest315 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:36 am

Where did you buy your box Christian1989? I got mine for 449,00 NOK at VideoNova. 50 NOK cheaper than Platekompaniet. A good deal I think... :wink:
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Postby Christian1989 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:49 pm

Last edited by Christian1989 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set - Merged

Postby John Neff » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:09 pm

dugpa wrote:Merged topic threads start here...

EvenReven, by 'off' as to the TP FWWM soundtrack, what do you mean? And, by the 'Partyland' scene ruined, do you mean that because the dialog got its own center channel? This is an old argument, but the levels of everything in the New Line DVD were consistent with the levels in the Dolby Stereo Track. We kept the stereo track up in the session, and constantly compared it. Dave approved the whole thing. He was THERE for a lot of it, and saw the whole film before I shipped it.

Let me know your thoughts specifically on this and I will address them. Thank you for your interest.
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set

Postby whatif » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:27 pm

Mr. Neff,

I will begin by saying, I am a big fan of your work with David. I love especially your work on Mulholland Drive.

For FWWM, I understand what you are saying but I will be honest in the sense that I own almost every imaginable copy of FWWM available. From the VHS tapes to the laserdiscs (US, UK, Japanese) to the DVDs (Again, the US, UK, Japanese, French, German, Spanish, Italian...)

In all honesty and with no meaning of any disrespect for the work you have done, I will say that the New Line 5.1 re-mix of Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me is very different from all of the other mixes ever released or that I have heard in a theater. Specifically as follows:

1. Partyland "Welcome to Canada" Scene - The Center Dialog is about 8-10 db louder than any of the Dolby Stereo versions (laserdisc, vhs, or non New Line 5.1 DVD mixes) that I own or that I have heard in the theater. Only in the new 5.1 New Line remix version can you hear the dialog so clearly that the subtitles become unnecessary.

2. Scene where Cooper is introduced at the Philadelphia bell is missing a cymbal hit. Every other version again including theatrical has this sound effect but for some reason, it is completely missing in the new New Line 5.1 audio remix.

3. Scene at the end where the Monkey says "Judy" is approximately 6 db louder than in previous Dolby Stereo versions (laserdisc, vhs, or non New Line 5.1 DVD mixes) that I own or that I have heard in the theater.

Now I absolutely no not mean any disrespect, but please understand that being a huge fan or this film, there are differences in the sound mix that you had done from all of the previous versions including the original theatrical version. I can only assume that maybe when doing the remix, these were either conscious decisions by Mr. Lynch or perhaps as I believe dugpa pointed out on one of the boards a few years back that maybe New Line made the changes once you had shipped it to them thinking they were maybe "correcting" or "normalizing" the low dialog.

What I am most curious about is what is Mr. Lynch's response to the changes in the audio mix?
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set

Postby John Neff » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:04 pm

Thanks for the comments, whatif.
No disrespect taken. I know it's a legitimate critique and appreciate it.
In answer to your last remark, if you mean what did David think of the 5.1 New Line Soundtrack?
He was there when it was made, and he approved it.
Now, you bring something up that is very interesting that I never thought of before... did New Line make any adjustments after I delivered it?
Truly, I do not know. They certainly had the opportunity, in the DVD Authoring and soundtrack QC (Quality Control) stages.
I have just had a soundtrack returned for illegible dialog in a scene, and the Director WANTED it that way. The Distributor wanted everything heard. We returned it as-is, with a Director's remark to leave it alone.
I do not have the session files for the remix - they are at David's studio, so I cannot compare what my mix was to what was on the DVD. That would be interesting to know.
As to the cymbal, I have heard that comment before. I cannot explain it - I worked from the original mag tracks as well as the mono D,M&E tracks, from which I made the LFE, or subwoofer track. That cymbal should have been there. It's a mystery.

I guess if they ever DO a new DVD with those famous deleted scenes, then those things viewed as a mistake have a chance to be corrected. This controversy has always mystified me, as David would have picked up on an 8-10db difference, or the 'Judy' utterance being too loud. We constantly compared the 5.1 to the stereo.

Who knows?
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set

Postby Evenreven » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:36 am

Whatif said pretty much what I would have said. "Ruined" was an over-the-top spur of the moment word used because of DonnaNotYou's extreme views on the R2 discs, and not meant as disrespect for a release that, for the most part, is excellent. But the fact that the soundtrack of the MK2 Region 2 version of FWWM is closer to the theatrical version than the New Line version has been known by several posters on this and other boards. I'm certainly not the first to voice this opinion. It has also, though I can't remember by whom, been speculated whether New Line tampered with your sound mix. Of course, only an A/B comparison will truly tell. However, if you compared to other sound mixes while mixing and if David was present, I find it hard to believe that the Partyland scene ended up like it did without some tampering after it was handed in. On the New Line release the subtitles are unnecessary. On the European theatrical release (which is the only one I've seen in a cinema) and on the MK2 release they are very necessary indeed.

The reason why I believe the speculation is because David has been so opposed to changing anything about his older films in the past. This is a substantial change.
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set

Postby kerplooey » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:11 am

While we're on the subject of FWWM and transfers, and as important as the sound -and playback speed- are, I am also shocked when I see such discrepancies in colour correction... I mean, a lot of Lynch's films have a tv calibration features, which shows that it's also important to him that the image looks on your set as close as possible to what the original film was supposed to look like...
Then how come the official transfers can be so different? here are a few examples: the New Line transfer is on top, the MK2 one on the bottom:


From what John is saying, I gather the New Line transfer is also, visually, the correct one, since Lynch approved this version, but then I hope if the "definitive" version with the deleted scenes comes out with MK2, they'll use a new transfer or at least makes sure Lynch sees it.
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Re: New David Lynch DVD Box - the Lime Green Set

Postby IFP » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:23 pm

R1 FWWM - 134 minutes
R2 FWWM - 129 minutes

Five minute difference, indeed due to PAL speed-up. I've played both discs simultaneously on different players - the PAL audio was slightly higher-pitched, and the scenes played out faster.

While I DO think the audio difference in the Partyland sequence spoils the mood of that scene, which i LOVED the original way, I agree that the increase in speed in the PAL playout is horrid.

Regarding that audio, David himself, in Lynch on Lynch, describes that scene. He speaks about how in a club, it's LOUD, and you cannot hear each other talk. He specifically says, that in that scene, the music is at 10, while the dialogue is at 2. He intended for the subtitles to be required. In the R1 release, they clearly are not required, and sadly, it is NOT the same experience. Video-wise, I do remember the film having a red-ish hue in the theater, that was present on the VHS release, and laserdisc, and is also present on the R2, that is totally absent from the R1. >shrug< I do miss that, but the picture quality IS better on the R1. Here's hoping for a R1 release some day that combines the best of both for a perfect re-creation of the original experience.
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Re: Twin Peaks: FWWM - Audio, Video, and Subtitle Differences

Postby dugpa » Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:37 pm

I thought I would chime in on this. When looking at the MK2 version and the New Line version side by side, as far as those clips go, I think I prefer the color timing on the MK2 version.

The reasons why is because thinking back, I honestly think that the color timing is closer to the theatrical. It's been about 6 years since I've seen a theatrical print, but it is closer to the MK2 version from my recollection.

Another thing to remember is that they shot this in the Fall even though the Film was supposed to take place in the Winter. At the time of the release, I remember reading something about how they tried to help compensate for the "Sunny Day" look in the color timing. I think it was in the American Cinematographer article that I read this but I'll have to check.

Now as to why Lynch would change this if this was truly the case is anybody's guess. I'll have to pay more attention to this the next time I see the film in the theater which has been way too long.


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