the Missing Pieces

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mlsstwrt
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Re: Lostinthemovies

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:30 am

LostInTheMovies wrote:
james wrote:It is very difficult to know if the shots of Laura putting on the ring were filmed with Sheryl Lee or not, as there is a shot of her looking down which seems to be her looking down as she puts the ring on - it certainly looks very convincing.

Still, does this mean that the ring was simply thought of as something which 'dooms' its wearer, up until the decision to have Laura put the ring on at the end? I can't see any real suggestion that the ring is simply an evil symbol. The clear suggestion is that the Chalftont/ Tremonds gave it to Teresa Banks, just as they gave Laura the picture for her wall. So doesn't that seem more like the ring is something which saved Teresa? I see the Tremonds as being benevolent, rather than enticing anyone as suggested previously.

Teresa was someone who found out too much and it cost her life, just as it did Laura. But at the same time they were both strong-willed and were ultimately saved through the 'power' of the ring.


Interesting thoughts. The malevolence and/or goodwill of the little man/Chalfonts/even the one-armed man (who seems like a "good guy" - at least an ally of the good guys - on the show) have always perplexed me somewhat in the film. I think the biggest suggestion of the ring's danger is probably Cooper's statement, "Don't take the ring, Laura." Thorne sees this as advice not to take the ring IN THIS CONTEXT only, Martha Nochimson thinks he's simply wrong (after all hes been trapped in the Lodge due to his own inability to make it through the threshold), and I think I've even heard people suggest this is actually the "Bad Cooper" saying this which is the reading I disagree with most. (We know what Bad Cooper looks/acts like and this isn't him, as the Missing Pieces seem to confirm). Of course there's also the matter that Lynch was makin up much of this as he went along and didn't know where he was going. Personally, Teresa's relationship to the ring has never been totally clear to me either. I don't really see any evidence she's been "saved" in the sense of being given greater wisdom or anything. Her relationship to Bob, if she has one, and the Chalfonts - whom she did seen to know - also remains hazy. Her role in the narrative as far as facilitating Laura's knowledge, revealing Leland's evil, and making Leland more aware of what he's done to his daughter - i.e. the more "realistic" elements - are all clear enough. But her role in the mystical Black Lodge mythology of the story still perplexed me somewhat. I'd be interested to hear more ideas on that.


One day I'm going to read a post of yours that I don't wholeheartedly agree with LITM..... one day.

But for now I have always had the exact same puzzlement about Teresa's role in the Black Lodge mythology. Sometimes it feels like she doesn't belong in there at all and had a relationship with Leland (taking him for a moment as 'separate' from Bob) only. But evidence points to the contrary - she wore the ring, the investigation into her murder was shrouded in the supernatural, it wasn't a typical Columbo style investigation. And it's also undeniable that there IS a relationship with Bob ("Teresa was with a T....." - Bob put a letter underneath Teresa's fingernail). The water gets very murky for me here. Teresa's murder has a clear and almost banal motive. Her death feels utterly distinct from those of Laura and Maddy's. It's stark and brutal, not horrifying and grandiose, almost operatic.

I have to agree that some of it is Lynch making things up as he goes along (but doing it wonderfully). Doesn't Leland say when finally caught in the series, in response to the question of whether he killed Teresa (and it's obviously Bob at this point, not Leland), something like, "I guess I kind of sort of did, I have this thing for knives." Teresa was killed with an axe or a blunt instrument wasn't she? There are inconsistencies.

Sometimes I think that Lynch changed his mind between the series and the film. In the series he saw Leland as a victim but ascribed far more culpability to him in the film. But then even in the series Bob does say of Leland that he, 'Has a great big hole where his conscience used to be,' or words to that effect. In 'Between Two Worlds' Leland says that he wasn't the one doing the things but it sounds like he is trying to convince himself.

I really can't come to a firm view on this. Maybe the new episodes will reveal all (although I'm not saying I want them to, I've come to love the ambiguity).

Edit: Note to self - read all of the posts in a thread before posting. Everything I said above has already been covered. Weighing in on the whole Leland awareness issue, I find myself agreeing with LITM again, that to the extent Leland was involved in Laura's abuse (I used to think of it as being entirely Bob), that part of him was so effectively partioned off from the 'good' Leland as to constitute a separate personality, the two 'people' within Leland only dimly aware of the other. I know it's not the prevailing view but at times I see (or prefer to see at least) Laura's abuse as being 100% Bob, just because Leland is clearly at times so genuine about his love for Laura. I guess it's difficult to reconcile that kind of love with committing acts of incest but then I suspect that the twisted reality is that most fathers who abuse their daughters do genuinely love them on some level. Hard to even think about.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:33 am

mlsstwrt wrote:Am reading through this whole fascinating thread.

Is this just to discuss the cut scenes? Or anything and everything on the Blu-Ray? Does anybody know of a thread on here discussing the interview with the Palmer family? If there is one, apologies, I've missed it. I saw the interview with Leland first (on YouTube) and then the Sarah and Laura interviews on the Blu-Ray, later. Before watching the interviews I was much more interested in Leland and Laura than Sarah. After watching the interviews, I'm no less intrigued by Laura and Leland but I thought the interview wish Sarah was astounding. I've never seen grief portrayed more harrowingly than in Twin Peaks (in most series/films, the husband/wife/son/father/brother/sister, etc will be sad for about 2 mins before basically just rallying and getting on with things, to a ludicrous degree often, exposing the relevant death as a plot device only, not an event) and I've never been as affected by a portrayal of grief as I was by Grace Zabriskie's performance. I thought it was astounding. The pain that Sarah has been through is almost tangible, it just seeps out of the screen. While you're watching it you can't help but SEE Sarah's life since her daughter and husband died, a fate far worse than death, just unrelenting, undiminishing grief.


Yeah, great observations. More evidence that Lynch is gonna be on his game in the upcoming series, if we needed it! And Zabriskie's performance is all the more amazing when you consider she got the script 1 hour earlier. All 3 of them were just ON it.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby cinemartin » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:14 pm

I also want to jump in to say that the interview with Palmer family was extremely powerful and one of the better representations of filmmaking I have seen in awhile. And it's an interview for a Blu Ray extra!
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby LostInTheMovies » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:30 am

Something I'm not sure has been brought up yet - the extended sequences of The Missing Pieces, at least in some cases, are alternate takes of the scenes featured in Fire Walk With Me.

For example, when Laura tells Shelly she has to go and runs away from the Double R, there is a red car parked behind her in the MP "extended" scene and a different car in the actual film. Otherwise the takes look the same, but this is a giveaway that they actually aren't. I haven't checked other scenes yet (and won't be able to for a while) but I noticed this when revisiting my own Journey video where I have a split-screen playing certain scenes side-by-side.

Wondering a) what the reasons behind this are (did Lynch just pick a take he liked without consulting what he & Sweeney had originally chosen or was he being purposefully perverse), and b) if there's any significance for the Missing Pieces (are they showing us an "alternate universe" of Fire Walk With Me) and possibly for the future series as well (I for one am expecting some sort of parallel/alternate universe concept to play into it, though I'm not sure how yet).
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby jlyon1515 » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:58 am

mlsstwrt wrote:Before watching the interviews I was much more interested in Leland and Laura than Sarah. After watching the interviews, I'm no less intrigued by Laura and Leland but I thought the interview wish Sarah was astounding. [...] I've never been as affected by a portrayal of grief as I was by Grace Zabriskie's performance. The pain that Sarah has been through is almost tangible, it just seeps out of the screen. While you're watching it you can't help but SEE Sarah's life since her daughter and husband died, a fate far worse than death, just unrelenting, undiminishing grief.


I absolutely agree with this! Grace Zabriskie did a fantastic job. I was in tears. It is also nice to see a bit more of her acting in The Missing Pieces, but man, she was so good in Between Two Worlds.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby Ross » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:16 am

jlyon1515 wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:Before watching the interviews I was much more interested in Leland and Laura than Sarah. After watching the interviews, I'm no less intrigued by Laura and Leland but I thought the interview wish Sarah was astounding. [...] I've never been as affected by a portrayal of grief as I was by Grace Zabriskie's performance. The pain that Sarah has been through is almost tangible, it just seeps out of the screen. While you're watching it you can't help but SEE Sarah's life since her daughter and husband died, a fate far worse than death, just unrelenting, undiminishing grief.


I absolutely agree with this! Grace Zabriskie did a fantastic job. I was in tears. It is also nice to see a bit more of her acting in The Missing Pieces, but man, she was so good in Between Two Worlds.

Agree completely! And her and Peggy Lipton really got shorted in the final cut of FWWM, as most of their best stuff is in the Missing Pieces. I'm glad both of them finally got to see those scenes.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby N. Needleman » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:49 am

jlyon1515 wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:Before watching the interviews I was much more interested in Leland and Laura than Sarah. After watching the interviews, I'm no less intrigued by Laura and Leland but I thought the interview wish Sarah was astounding. [...] I've never been as affected by a portrayal of grief as I was by Grace Zabriskie's performance. The pain that Sarah has been through is almost tangible, it just seeps out of the screen. While you're watching it you can't help but SEE Sarah's life since her daughter and husband died, a fate far worse than death, just unrelenting, undiminishing grief.


I absolutely agree with this! Grace Zabriskie did a fantastic job. I was in tears. It is also nice to see a bit more of her acting in The Missing Pieces, but man, she was so good in Between Two Worlds.


Grace's work in that short was jaw-dropping. After a long time away since Inland Empire (which I liked) it brought everything Peaks and Lynch back to me in one bone-chilling sequence. Like so many of her performances, she was unbelievably sad and also disturbing. When I first saw that short, especially given the way Laura's bit ends, I became very suspicious about what was really behind all Ray Wise's loose talk about a possible revival - and a few months later, voila. I believe someone said Lynch wrote the sequence himself.

I was also very glad to see Laura's apparent salvation or deliverance (to somewhere or some state of being, anyway - my assumption was the White Lodge) at the end of FWWM was not invalidated, and she seemed to still be relatively at peace. By contrast, Lynch made a specific choice to undo the supposed positive change in Sarah that was briefly shown after Leland's wake, which I totally understand given how rushed and somewhat artificial that scene plays.

I do hope that in the new series, Sarah can find some peace. But knowing her, I doubt it.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby mlsstwrt » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:32 pm

Is this a totally stupid comment or are the White Lodge and the Black Lodge the same place? I mean I know they are diametric opposites but are some of the scenes we think of as 'Black Lodge' scenes actually meant to be in the White Lodge? Like at the end of FWWM with Laura finally reaching some peace/salvation. The pattern on the floor - the zigzag is alternating white and black. On one level it would make sense to me that they are mirror images of each other rather than the Black Lodge looking one way and the White Lodge looking some completely different way?

Back to the Palmer interviews - it's gratifying to read that other people were similarly moved by Grace Zabriskie's performance. Just amazing that she only got the script 1 hour earlier - I had no idea that was the case until reading LITM's post. Very interesting observation by N.Needleman that Lynch decided to reverse the 'closure' that Sarah seemed to have reached after Leland's wake. I hadn't even thought about that, but you're right and I do think that that was a little bit twee (if deserved on Sarah's part - how much can one person suffer?). Grace Zabriskie's performance was just harrowing. I could immediately imagine Sarah's life and how irrevocably infused it is with tragedy, horror and pain.

And what did Laura mean when she said (along the lines of) sometimes less than half being known. Vague allusions of mystery on Lynch's part? Or are there specific things that we never learned about Laura? An enigma wrapped inside a mystery wrapped inside a puzzle indeed (not necessarily in that order!).
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby N. Needleman » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:42 pm

I think Laura's comments about there still being secrets and things not known was a very specific teaser for the new series. Whether those secrets are about her, who knows.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby Jasper » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:55 pm

We know Sarah continues to live in the Palmer house. I was wondering what that must be like. What would she do with Leland's things? Burn them? Give them to charity? More interestingly, what would she do with Laura's things and Laura's room? Could it be that she's left Laura's room intact?
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:23 am

Three responses (would be tough for me to do in-line replies for eah so hopefully it's clear who I'm responding to:

1. While I'm not a big fan of ep. 17 I never took it to be saying everything's gonna be ok now for Sarah. More ok, she's faced what has happened now and that part of her life is over. But you know it will haunt her forever.

2. Even more so than Sarah, I thought it was very notable that Lynch reversed Leland's closure! Thats such a huge moment for his character and the show when he sees the light and Laura calling to him an apparently dies in peace. But B2W strongly suggests that his spirit is still unsettled and focused on the past while still in denial about his culpability. What this means for Leland in the new season is hard to say. Btw, it's interesting that after years of buzzing about a possible comeback Ray Wise fell silent a soon as it became a real thing. I think I read that he was de facto confirmed, but he's been relatively quiet since last October, wasn't part of the cast video and I think has only put out one brief tweet on the subject? Many have predicted that he will be the new face of Bob, and while it's hard for me to believe people are on to Lynch in any way, I could see this working. Then of course the questiom becomes is this a new face Bob had taken or is Leland actually fulfilling his role? The B2W segment leaves so many questions about his character and where he is, more so than any other.

3. I definitely think the Black and White Lodge are the same place (to the extent we can talk about a metaphysical/transdimensional space as a "place" to begin with). Incidentally, Lynch has said the chevron is actually a slightly off-white and dark brown rather than the sharp black and white it initially seems! Though the effect is pretty damn similar and does add to that sense of being two places at once. I think the Lodge it becomes depends upon the mindset of the entrant.

P.S. I'll bet Sarah kept EVERYBODY's stuff intact and the place is like a museum, albeit an abandoned one fallen into disrepair.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby N. Needleman » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:56 am

I'm not sure what Ray Wise's take would be on that short segment - I think he's maintained that the way he reconciled the twist was to take the more literal interpretation, which was that Leland was by and large just a hapless vessel for BOB who would never harm his daughter. I may be misreading some of his interviews. That is an actor's journey and their prerogative in terms of their internal take, though I do not 100% agree with that interpretation.

I do think the B2W sequence presents a Leland who is both deeply loving of his family and aware of many of his faults, but also deeply in denial of the full scope of what he did ("I did not do these things. They were not done by me."). That said, I don't think it necessarily invalidates his deliverance in Episode 16 so much as it indicates that even between life and death, the truth and how we perceive it long-term is a lot more complicated. It also dovetails well with the giggling Leland doppleganger in Episode 29, who is clearly as malevolent as all the other white-eyed doubles but sneers that he did not kill anybody. Because he didn't - whatever Leland wants to believe about himself, it was Leland all along. That's how I take the other Leland's appearance in the finale, anyway, and it also sets up FWWM.

As for Ray and the new show, I assume he is there. I think he's known much more than he was saying all along, and at several points he all but came out and said it. He's hinted at returning since, but he is also a very busy working actor so I can understand why he's kept a low profile, particularly given his pivotal character.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:12 pm

I started to respond to Needleman's point about Ray Wise and Leland but it turned out pretty long and I thought it would be more at home in an old thread from last year, so here it is: http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2621&p=39564#p39564

Anyway, on the specific point of how Ray Wise felt about Leland's monologue in Between Two Worlds, I actually heard him interviewed on a podcast where he said that this was Leland's opportunity to explain himself, and that he felt that this was exactly what Leland should/would have said in this situation and was thankful for the scene.

He didn't go into too much detail but knowing his past views, I assumed this to mean that he took "I didn't do those things, that wasn't me" at face-value. I'll look for the podcast and quote/link it here! It was by the guy who runs the channel that did the Fire Talk With Me podcast (he wasn't one of the hosts, but would appear at the conclusion of every episode to make announcements - also the clip of Ray Wise saying "Fire Talk With Me" comes from this interview with him).
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:42 am

The extent of Leland's culpability has become one of the most fascintaing aspects of Twin Peaks for me. At the end of episode 16 it seemed fairly black and white - Leland was good and Bob was bad. But the more you thought about it, the less Leland just being a 'babe in the woods' added up and then the movie really turned things on its head. I really do hope that this will receive a lot of attention in the new series.

I also do hope that the Laura interview was a teaser for things to come.

I haven't seen this mentioned before but did anyone think it was interesting that Laura's drug of choice was cocaine? If you're looking to escape, to feel numb, then opiates or alcohol would seem more suitable. Not that I, cough, know anything about illicit drugs of course.
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Re: Twin Peaks: The Missing Pieces - analysis/thoughts etc

Postby LostInTheMovies » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:20 am

mlsstwrt wrote:I haven't seen this mentioned before but did anyone think it was interesting that Laura's drug of choice was cocaine? If you're looking to escape, to feel numb, then opiates or alcohol would seem more suitable. Not that I, cough, know anything about illicit drugs of course.


Someone will probably surprise me and post something really insightful about why that drug is significant, but for the moment I'm just going to chalk up to being the go-to 80s drug for someone looking to say "this successful person had a dark side" - serious but more "glamorous" than heroin (maybe a few years later, it would've been H especially given the Seattle connection).

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