Parts 3 & 4 - Call for help & ...brings back some memories (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
mtwentz
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:02 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:49 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:I don't think Rancho Rosa is a manufactured reality. Why would drug addicts be living there?


Well if it is a manufactured reality then anything is possible. Lynch is a surrealist after all.


If it were manufactured, who would be the maker and what would the reason for making be?



Well, if I were to go by the manufactured reality hypothesis, which I am not yet buying into, Rancho Rosa would be a fake 'decoy' reality created by the dark denizens of the Black Lodge in order to keep Cooper entrapped and think he's escaped so he won't take his doppelganger out of the 'real world'.

On the other hand, it could actually be a 'halfway house' created by the White Lodge to smooth the re-entry of souls trapped in the Black Lodge for many years.

But as I wrote above, I am not ready to buy into this theory yet. If this reality is manufactured, why does Mike say that one of Coop and his doppelganger must die?
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
User avatar
AgentEcho
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:57 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby AgentEcho » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:36 am

raltenbach wrote:
Skip Bittman wrote:I think only the beginning syncs up - the rest in the purple world is just coincidence and the usual magic that takes place when you combine unrelated video/audio and our brains try to make sense of it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go dig out "Dark Side of the Moon"

Saturn's child wrote:I assumed that Mother's banging was her heart beat; Coop being in a womb-like pre-rebirth vestibule & all.


SO I was simply going to post "Wouldn't 'Atom Heart Mother' be more appropriate?", but I figured I'd try it first. If you start the song when the "SHOWTIME PRESENTS" is at its brightest, you end up with quite a few "holy cow that was perfect" moments. Worth a try if you have 23 minutes to spare. If you get a "wow" moment when Cooper lands you'll know you have it synced correctly. Please someone try this, I don't want to be the only one.


I had to try it. I don't think I had it synced the way you did, because I didn't have a wow moment when Cooper lands. I did when Bad Coop crashed his car though LOL. That was pretty good. Almost as good as 2001 and Echoes except that one ended perfectly.
User avatar
Wonderful & Strange
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:19 am

mtwentz wrote:
Wonderful & Strange wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:
Well if it is a manufactured reality then anything is possible. Lynch is a surrealist after all.


If it were manufactured, who would be the maker and what would the reason for making be?



Well, if I were to go by the manufactured reality hypothesis, which I am not yet buying into, Rancho Rosa would be a fake 'decoy' reality created by the dark denizens of the Black Lodge in order to keep Cooper entrapped and think he's escaped so he won't take his doppelganger out of the 'real world'.

On the other hand, it could actually be a 'halfway house' created by the White Lodge to smooth the re-entry of souls trapped in the Black Lodge for many years.

But as I wrote above, I am not ready to buy into this theory yet. If this reality is manufactured, why does Mike say that one of Coop and his doppelganger must die?


Solid responses. Here's mine: The White Lodgers were apparently surprised about Dougie's existence, so that seems to rule out Rancho Rosa as a soft landing point for Coop. The only reason Coop arrives there is because Dougie happens to be using the place for sex; this would have happened wherever Dougie was, assuming there was some kind of socket.

As we can see with Bad Coop -- he didn't seem to realize that he could be sucked up back through his car's cigarette lighter. He was heading out in the middle of nowhere where he could be safe from electrical sockets. This shows that ANY electrical socket can be used for transport to or from the Lodges.

Now if Rancho Rosa was a trap for Cooper by the Black Lodgers, it didn't work very well as he just easily drove away, and we don't seem likely to return to Rancho Rosa for any reason I can see (he's living somewhere completely different with Janey-E!). Some trap!

It seems some people are thinking this whole Vegas reality is manufactured, not just Rancho Rosa, and if so that seems to beg the question what's the difference between the real reality and it?

I'm also not a supporter of the 2003 Vegas time argument, but that one at least makes some sense: Cooper needs years to regain his adult self before he can face Bad Coop in our time.

I really dislike that plot, but it may be true.
Member of the Agent Tammy Preston Defense Lodge
User avatar
wxray
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:23 am

Wonderful & Strange wrote:
I'm also not a supporter of the 2003 Vegas time argument, but that one at least makes some sense: Cooper needs years to regain his adult self before he can face Bad Coop in our time.

I really dislike that plot, but it may be true.


"HI!"

Let's hope that coffee is snapping him out of it. 37 1/2 hours until we find out.

(This wait is killing me. I seriously had a dream last night that I was sitting in a shack drinking moonshine out of a proper mason jar with Otis. Weird as hell!)
KyleRickards
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby KyleRickards » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:29 am

Has anyone noticed at the very end of the Denise scene, it almost seems to flip into reverse just before she fans herself after Cole has left?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
HagbardCeline
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 12:53 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:54 pm

Okay, I am sure someone else has already suggested this, but doing another re-watch before episode 5 drops 1.33 days...

In FWWM, BOB is trying to do a ritual that will allow him to fully possess Laura. At this point Bob has been in Leland for a while. Leland doesn't give us a specific time, he just says "since he was a boy." Could it be that Bob was about to have to go back into the lodge after a period inside Leland and then he was trying to do this ritual in the train car to he wouldn't have to go back?

Fast Forward to the new series. DoppleCoop has this complex ritual that he's trying to work so he doesn't have to go back. It involves the glass box. It involves the headless corpse. It involves Hastings/Mrs. Hastings. The gray entity (which some have said is holding a gold ball if they play around with the video exposure) is able to enter our world because the guards are gone and Tracy/Ben can gave sex. That entity becomes a proxy for DoppelCoop who loses his creamed corn, but isn't sucked back into the lodge.
thedougpa
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:35 pm

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby thedougpa » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:58 pm

KyleRickards wrote:Has anyone noticed at the very end of the Denise scene, it almost seems to flip into reverse just before she fans herself after Cole has left?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Holy shit, just rewatched it. Great catch. I wonder what the insinuation is.
User avatar
PeteMartell
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:50 pm

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby PeteMartell » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:13 pm

somevelvetmorning wrote:
Normonaut wrote:The two men in Rancho Rosa? I'm not so sure they were there to kill Dougie (or Coop). We see one of them with a sniper rifle but they are also equipped with tracking devices, and when they assume he must still be inside the house, they just put one of those devices on his car. If they wanted to kill him, why not just at least check the house?



Seems to me like they could be some kind of evil, black lodge, inverted version of the ritual in Tibetan culture where the Dalai Lama or the karmapa's new incarnation is sought out by a group of monks and old possessions are laid out so that a the "golden child" can be found and continue to incarnate properly. Maybe. Or maybe dougie owed them money or something more mundane.

But I do like this idea that good coop/dougie is recognizing things from his former life, like coffee, and the question of the strange continuity/discontinuity of reincarnated souls is being explored.
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:19 pm

thedougpa wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:Has anyone noticed at the very end of the Denise scene, it almost seems to flip into reverse just before she fans herself after Cole has left?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Holy shit, just rewatched it. Great catch. I wonder what the insinuation is.


The footage itself is not reversed. Denise nervously turns a bit to her left, then quickly turns back and fans herself. I think the only insinuation is that Denise is dealing with those raging hormones she mentioned in the dialogue.
thedougpa
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:35 pm

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby thedougpa » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:39 pm

Jasper wrote:
thedougpa wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:Has anyone noticed at the very end of the Denise scene, it almost seems to flip into reverse just before she fans herself after Cole has left?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Holy shit, just rewatched it. Great catch. I wonder what the insinuation is.


The footage itself is not reversed. Denise nervously turns a bit to her left, then quickly turns back and fans herself. I think the only insinuation is that Denise is dealing with those raging hormones she mentioned in the dialogue.

The scene is definitely in reverse. Watch it again.
User avatar
a whole damn town
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 6:13 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby a whole damn town » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:41 pm

Jasper wrote:The footage itself is not reversed. Denise nervously turns a bit to her left, then quickly turns back and fans herself. I think the only insinuation is that Denise is dealing with those raging hormones she mentioned in the dialogue.

It is reversed (here's a gif: http://i.imgur.com/7L6WOHq.gif - look at the unnatural way her jacket moves). Lynch has been using some unfortunate editing tricks to "fix" poor shots and to manufacture shots he wasn't able to film - for example, Al Strobel's slow-mo reaction shot (and I suspect that the weird distortion that happens when Phyllis is shot was done because the original shot lacked any impact).
I'm not just three men on a fishing trip.
User avatar
vanderohe
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:48 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby vanderohe » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:41 pm

some ritual noise, to shorten the waiting time until p5.
https://youtu.be/1kF_1iVzplQ
lets pray for more angelo.
>>>>two and two do not always equal four >>>>
User avatar
Wonderful & Strange
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:58 pm

HagbardCeline wrote:Okay, I am sure someone else has already suggested this, but doing another re-watch before episode 5 drops 1.33 days...

In FWWM, BOB is trying to do a ritual that will allow him to fully possess Laura. At this point Bob has been in Leland for a while. Leland doesn't give us a specific time, he just says "since he was a boy." Could it be that Bob was about to have to go back into the lodge after a period inside Leland and then he was trying to do this ritual in the train car to he wouldn't have to go back?

Fast Forward to the new series. DoppleCoop has this complex ritual that he's trying to work so he doesn't have to go back. It involves the glass box. It involves the headless corpse. It involves Hastings/Mrs. Hastings. The gray entity (which some have said is holding a gold ball if they play around with the video exposure) is able to enter our world because the guards are gone and Tracy/Ben can gave sex. That entity becomes a proxy for DoppelCoop who loses his creamed corn, but isn't sucked back into the lodge.


Interesting speculation. I personally think the Box Entity could be the powerful "owl" figure Bob-Coop is seeking on his playing card. I think Bob-Coop wants to keep growing in power and its this owl-like thing that he thinks will give it to him.

My own speculation about how much time Bob has to spend in the world before having to return to the Lodge is based on a couple of things:

1. There's a difference between possessing a human host and a doppelganger.

2. There's a practical aspect to Bob sometimes wanting to change hosts: age/other considerations.

Ideas on 1.: A human host is a less perfect host than a doppelganger manufactured exactly as bob likes. Human beings have more free will than doppelgangers, and Bob needs to work within their own specific set of desires and needs. They want to be able to do the dark deeds and sins that having Bob with them allows them to do (their darkest urges and desires), but they also need to be able to keep up appearances of their normal life, like respectable Leland and Bill Hasting's. Part of them keeping up appearances has to do with Bob erasing/overpowering their empathy, conscience, and memory. This is the devilish part of the "contract" between them. What I like about this reading is that it retains culpability for Leland while showing how Bob helped enable him to do what his unconscious desired to do.

When a human invites Bob inside them, there is no time limit on how long Bob can stay. However, doppelgangers have a different set of magical rules to them and Bob's time in them may be more limited. Perhaps Cooper could only be held by the Lodge for 25 years before he had to be returned to the world?


Ideas on 2.: But as we see with Laura, Bob sometimes finds superior hosts to inhabit while possessing his current host. Superior means things like younger, more beautiful, more powerful, all the qualities that would lead to more pleasure and garmonbozia for Bob. Lelend was entering his later years when Bob wanted to shift inside the younger Laura. There may have been no time limit forcing Bob out here, just his own practical desires.

Doppel-Coop also has entered his later years by the time we meet him in The Return. He seems to crave the power of the owl-entity, so he's sort of in a similar position to when he was in Leland and started desiring perhaps a younger/more powerful host. Add to this what I mentioned above about the rules of the Lodge perhaps demanding that Cooper be released, and the time left for Doppel-Coop seems to be ticking away -- unless he can kill Good-Coop and/or join with the owl-entity.

I think The Return is going to show us that there are forces more powerful than Bob and that he, like Earle, will be consumed by them.
Member of the Agent Tammy Preston Defense Lodge
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:39 pm

a whole damn town wrote:
Jasper wrote:The footage itself is not reversed. Denise nervously turns a bit to her left, then quickly turns back and fans herself. I think the only insinuation is that Denise is dealing with those raging hormones she mentioned in the dialogue.

It is reversed (here's a gif: http://i.imgur.com/7L6WOHq.gif - look at the unnatural way her jacket moves).


Well, OK, maybe, but what is the proposed order of Denise's movements in the original, unaltered shot?
User avatar
HagbardCeline
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 12:53 am

Re: Parts 3 + 4 (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:19 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:Ideas on 2.: But as we see with Laura, Bob sometimes finds superior hosts to inhabit while possessing his current host. Superior means things like younger, more beautiful, more powerful, all the qualities that would lead to more pleasure and garmonbozia for Bob. Lelend was entering his later years when Bob wanted to shift inside the younger Laura. There may have been no time limit forcing Bob out here, just his own practical desires.


Well another thought that only just occurred to me, is that Bob was floating around inside Leland when Laura was conceived. I think it's entirely possible that a little bit of Bob was passed on to Laura at this time. That would explain how he was able to write in her diary at times. Bob could have intended from the conception that Laura was going to be his vessel. The abuse by her father was just part of the construction.

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests