Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:32 am

Oh! One other very important note. Red shares Leland and Pete's passion for The King and I.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:35 am

I spend each week really not wanting it to end, to see the plot move forward a tad more, then I get really frustrated when the music starts!

A good episode this week I thought. Loved seeing Carl, loved having at least a hint that Cooper is being encouraged on by the lodge inhabitants, which makes me hope that a sudden return to form ("waking up") is not out of the question. I think there'll be a violent confrontation with his apparent would-be assassin that may shock him awake, but what do I know.

I loved Albert's "f**k you Gene Kelly!", and I also thought the Naomi Watts scene with the loan sharks (?) was decent.

Finally, I really love Hawk finding those pages! I'm also in the "missing pages from the diary" camp, but what will he do with this information?

7 days is too long!
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:00 am

I'm surprised at some of the negativity. I feel like fans expected a rehash of the old show, something akin to the the fanfic they've been writing for 25 years, but this is clearly not a show that is nostalgic for itself. Maybe someone of you didn't watch this first run, but it blew people's minds. I honestly can't think of a modern analogue to it. I remember walking down a street in SW Portland in the time between S1 and S2 and there were shop windows filled with "Who Killed Laura Palmer" T-Shirts. Watch an episode of LA Law and then compare that to Twin Peaks. That's how far Lynch and Frost moved the goalposts forward.

They are doing that again. Compared to S1, The Return is flying along. We have gotten so much information about the world in 6 episodes. Compare that to 6 episodes of S1. There were twice as many subplots introduced in S1 that had nothing to do with Laura Palmer. Everything in The Return radiates out of Coop/DoppelCoop. They are the foci of an ellipse.

Episode 6 was paced perfectly so well that I didn't find myself checking the clock until we jumped into the Roadhouse. Cooper's intuition is returning, part of his deepest core, and he was able to find the scam in the case files like our Cooper. Janey-E was awesome. The other layer I love with her performance is that she has the huge pile of cash that Coop won at the Casino and totally could pay the full amount of money the loansharks wanted.

Carl Rodd's scene was subtle, but equally amazing. He was just like the Log Lady, in that he went missing as a child. He was in the proximity to Project Blue Book as well. It makes sense that he can see and sense things. It was a strangely beautiful and tragic scene.

I know some people were upset at the brevity of Albert's scene, but I have a suspicion that they were only able to film so much of Miguel Ferrer's stuff before he got sick. He looks a lot better here than he did in the last couple episodes of NCIS: Los Angeles, where he clearly had suffered a stroke. I think they are spreading some of the people they only had a brief time with out, so we can feel their presence more throughout.

Finally, the scene with Hawk... I thought it was Leland who tore out the pages from her diary. I also thought they were the pages that held the clues to her father's abuse of her. Am I totally remembering wrong, or did she find them torn out, freak, and take the diary to Harold? Or are these simply *other* missing pages that were at the Train Car and just were picked up by Mike. If they have the "Annie" dream in them, I will stand up and cheer.

In this age of binging, I am glad this show is being released weekly. It is a puzzle that is being filled in out of order. I have a feeling when the full picture is available, it will create a remarkable picture. The week in between is time to re-watch, ponder, and enjoy multiple times. We're 1/3rd of the way through.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Rudagger » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:06 am

I'm trying to wrap my head around the two diaries from the original series, and their missing pages (which gets even more confusing because Leland steals some, Harold tears the diary apart, and also sends a page to Donna, so, yeesh), and the timeline of Philip Gerrard. So, let me try to sort this out and someone can correct me;

Two diaries:

A) Normal looking one in her bedroom, innocuous, and has cocaine. This is discovered by Coop, and quickly dismissed (beyond some vague 'Meeting J'). Contains cocaine and deposit box key.

B) Secret Diary. Leland tears pages out *before* the Annie dream. Laura takes this to Harold. Leland brings some of the torn out pages to the crime scene when he murders Laura, but, they are unreadable. Later, on Harold's death, Harold mails a torn out page to Donna containing mention of the dream about her and Cooper. There is also an entry written on the day of Laura's death that would've had to have been written at Harold's place.

Timeline:

Gerrard is in the Sheriff station washroom *before* they find the Secret Diary.

So, ways those pages potentially could've gotten in there, if Gerrard did it during that washroom freakout scene:

A) Gerrard stole them from the Secret Diary from Harold directly, and planted them there during his freak out (or anytime years later)
B) Gerrard stole them from the *ordinary diary* and no one noticed as the investigation didn't look closely (and the Sheriff's station is Season 1 was always seemingly a bit .. understaffed). Hell, he could've done this immediately after failing to give himself his injection.
C) Gerrard stole them and planted them later on, perhaps in an episode like Lonely Souls, where he was in the Sherrif station, and both diaries would've been present.

Or they could not be diary pages at all, or not planted by Gerrard .. my head hurts, haha. Maybe Frost/Lynch will play fast and loose with continuity on this one? I always had a hard time remembering the diary related stuff, and it doesn't dramatically impact the narrative of S1/2, even despite the tie-in novel.

My mind instantly went to Gerrard because it just seemed like a nice way to have an elegant callback that ties into the original series, but, I think for some the logic of that might not hold up. Diary pages of some kind would also make sense just because the show seems like it wants to keep Laura Palmer as an anchor for the story (hell, her face is in the credits).
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby sackboy97 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:24 am

Rudagger wrote:I'm trying to wrap my head around the two diaries from the original series, and their missing pages (which gets even more confusing because Leland steals some, Harold tears the diary apart, and also sends a page to Donna, so, yeesh), and the timeline of Philip Gerrard. So, let me try to sort this out and someone can correct me;

Two diaries:

A) Normal looking one in her bedroom, innocuous, and has cocaine. This is discovered by Coop, and quickly dismissed (beyond some vague 'Meeting J'). Contains cocaine and deposit box key.

B) Secret Diary. Leland tears pages out *before* the Annie dream. Laura takes this to Harold. Leland brings some of the torn out pages to the crime scene when he murders Laura, but, they are unreadable. Later, on Harold's death, Harold mails a torn out page to Donna containing mention of the dream about her and Cooper. There is also an entry written on the day of Laura's death that would've had to have been written at Harold's place.

Timeline:

Gerrard is in the Sheriff station washroom *before* they find the Secret Diary.

So, ways those pages potentially could've gotten in there, if Gerrard did it during that washroom freakout scene:

A) Gerrard stole them from the Secret Diary from Harold directly, and planted them there during his freak out (or anytime years later)
B) Gerrard stole them from the *ordinary diary* and no one noticed as the investigation didn't look closely (and the Sheriff's station is Season 1 was always seemingly a bit .. understaffed). Hell, he could've done this immediately after failing to give himself his injection.
C) Gerrard stole them and planted them later on, perhaps in an episode like Lonely Souls, where he was in the Sherrif station, and both diaries would've been present.

Or they could not be diary pages at all, or not planted by Gerrard .. my head hurts, haha. Maybe Frost/Lynch will play fast and loose with continuity on this one? I always had a hard time remembering the diary related stuff, and it doesn't dramatically impact the narrative of S1/2, even despite the tie-in novel.

My mind instantly went to Gerrard because it just seemed like a nice way to have an elegant callback that ties into the original series, but, I think for some the logic of that might not hold up. Diary pages of some kind would also make sense just because the show seems like it wants to keep Laura Palmer as an anchor for the story (hell, her face is in the credits).

I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Those are definitely meant to be pages from the diary, and I would guess from the secret diary (I don't think there were missing pages in the normal one). Also, those pages being planted by Mike/Gerard seems reasonable, and, like you said, it would be a really nice callback.
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BEARisonFord
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby BEARisonFord » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:28 am

HagbardCeline wrote:I'm surprised at some of the negativity. I feel like fans expected a rehash of the old show, something akin to the the fanfic they've been writing for 25 years, but this is clearly not a show that is nostalgic for itself. Maybe someone of you didn't watch this first run, but it blew people's minds. I honestly can't think of a modern analogue to it. I remember walking down a street in SW Portland in the time between S1 and S2 and there were shop windows filled with "Who Killed Laura Palmer" T-Shirts. Watch an episode of LA Law and then compare that to Twin Peaks. That's how far Lynch and Frost moved the goalposts forward.

They are doing that again. Compared to S1, The Return is flying along. We have gotten so much information about the world in 6 episodes. Compare that to 6 episodes of S1. There were twice as many subplots introduced in S1 that had nothing to do with Laura Palmer. Everything in The Return radiates out of Coop/DoppelCoop. They are the foci of an ellipse.

Episode 6 was paced perfectly so well that I didn't find myself checking the clock until we jumped into the Roadhouse. Cooper's intuition is returning, part of his deepest core, and he was able to find the scam in the case files like our Cooper. Janey-E was awesome. The other layer I love with her performance is that she has the huge pile of cash that Coop won at the Casino and totally could pay the full amount of money the loansharks wanted.

Carl Rodd's scene was subtle, but equally amazing. He was just like the Log Lady, in that he went missing as a child. He was in the proximity to Project Blue Book as well. It makes sense that he can see and sense things. It was a strangely beautiful and tragic scene.

I know some people were upset at the brevity of Albert's scene, but I have a suspicion that they were only able to film so much of Miguel Ferrer's stuff before he got sick. He looks a lot better here than he did in the last couple episodes of NCIS: Los Angeles, where he clearly had suffered a stroke. I think they are spreading some of the people they only had a brief time with out, so we can feel their presence more throughout.

Finally, the scene with Hawk... I thought it was Leland who tore out the pages from her diary. I also thought they were the pages that held the clues to her father's abuse of her. Am I totally remembering wrong, or did she find them torn out, freak, and take the diary to Harold? Or are these simply *other* missing pages that were at the Train Car and just were picked up by Mike. If they have the "Annie" dream in them, I will stand up and cheer.

In this age of binging, I am glad this show is being released weekly. It is a puzzle that is being filled in out of order. I have a feeling when the full picture is available, it will create a remarkable picture. The week in between is time to re-watch, ponder, and enjoy multiple times. We're 1/3rd of the way through.


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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:41 am

In Rancho Rosa there have been several references to Cooper sleeping. The Giant tells him Don't die. Is Cooper in a coma somewhere?
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:45 am

Show keeps getting better and better. Throw your expectations away and embrace the change of perception Lynch wants viewers to adopt. He's forcing people to slow down and focus, and it's interesting how challenging that is.

More tomorrow.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:17 am

As soon as Hawk knelt down in that stall, I thought of Phillip Gerard! "He must've left something in here!..." Even though the action was somewhat blunted by Hawk's lack of real participation, that was undeniably mysterious. I'm sure that everyone was just as disappointed as I was when we hit the credits without knowing.


WhiteLodge90 wrote:DougieCoop is drawing thin on me. I enjoyed his scenes today but I was really hoping that the One armed man revelation would be more prominent than it was.

It's getting really old. We're one third of the way into this and he's still completely out of it and unaware of who he is. Man. I think it's a bummer in some ways but, I'll admit it makes me wonder if they're gearing up for a major payoff and that this is all going to make sense, or if they simply failed to see the folly of such a drawn out reawakening. I do like seeing him slowly come to life -- 25 years of sitting motionless in a chair cannot be good for you -- but it's a bit drawn out at this point. Since many of us are enjoying Dougie scenes, that says something too. Maybe it's just that we weren't ready for this because we had our own expectations building up for decades, and yet it's still somehow working.


WhiteLodge90 wrote:Who else caught the guy in the trailer park mention the name Linda? I sure did.

Caught it!


WhiteLodge90 wrote:Does the Red character have supernatural powers? Or is he just very good with his hands and a coin.

Really weird scene. I had to wonder if he just took advantage of a really high Richard. Maybe he placed a little metal in the line that Richard snorted, then played a mind game using simple magic tricks, knowing it would throw him for a loop.


RainingPostToasties wrote:Is Dougie going to suddenly engage in physical combat by emulating the poster in the boss's office and the statue of the FBI agent? Maybe to fight the newly-introduced hitman?

Definitely got that feeling. He's recalling boxing and I suppose we're supposed to get the idea that Coop was something of a boxing aficionado. But for sure it seemed like a fistfight was being foreshadowed there. Also because this is Twin Peaks, I wondered if he was suddenly going to take a swing at Dougie's boss.


AgentEcho wrote:I sure hope the hit and run scene serves some grander purpose in the story. It was hard to watch. At least from a strictly film making perspective it was effective in that it was well acted and emotionally wrenching, but the floating spirit thing felt a little off. The scene needs a better reason to exist other than making sure we hate Richard even more, and to establish Carl has abilities as well.

It was absolutely horrible to watch. It gutted me for the rest of the episode. I have a 3 year old son and like any parent, I put myself in the mother's shoes and was clammy and sick to my stomach. So I agree that it's a real cheap shot if it was just used to show that he's a total scumbag. But there could be more to it that I simply failed to see since I got focused on wanting something terrible to happen to Richard, as base as that is. While he didn't intend to kill anyone, it's still the result of being an impatient, self absorbed, easily angered, out of control, thoughtless force of destruction. A person usually ends up that way through a series of life decisions, right? You can be dealt a shit sandwich, but how you eat it is everything. He didn't eat his with much prowess, and now, here he is. On the other hand, if we're all nothing more than byproducts of our surroundings, then I suppose this scene and all of the events are demonstrating a duality of good and evil that inherently exists in some kind of sick "balance" if it can be called that.

Side note: The people reacting to the accident pretty much ruined the scene. How in the world did those shots make it in?! Everything was wrong with them. The unconvincing expressions, the total lack of feeling. I mean it was completely awful. Even the appearance of the supposed area residents was unconvincing. Does anyone think they looked like people that would live around there? Or did they look like some "aspiring actor" kids bused in from Los Angeles? Think back on the grieving for Laura in the first two seasons. It was believable while this is just ridiculous. You see it and think, "Here are some people trying, and failing, to look distraught".


EwanM wrote:The hitman dwarf - didn't really work for me.

The music used for his scenes was atrocious. It just didn't fit at all.


Rami Airola wrote:While the Hawk scene was great and I loved that he found the possible diary pages, the whole Indian heritage mystery felt a bit too "magic fate" to me.

Actually, from personal experience I can tell you that things can almost work this way. The reason that I say "almost" is because he wasn't involved in any way, shape, or form. In reality, we drive, although where we drive may be completely out of our control. In this scene, Hawk didn't drive at all. He had no contribution to make. He was as much an observer as we were. That's pretty unsensational, and very unrealistic. If there is such a thing as fate or fated potential, we still need to meet it halfway, don't we?

Of course, without the call from the Log Lady, Hawk wouldn't have flinched upon retrieving his coin, but that still makes him as a passive force in the end.


Jonah wrote:For example, the Diane bit - first teased at the end of Episode 4, nothing about it in Episode 5, then a brief - too brief - scene in Episode 6.

Agreed. That was extremely cheap. There's too much teasing going on. I can understand ending an episode with Albert's revelation that he knows where someone very close to Cooper drinks. It leaves a lot of room for speculation and it's plenty of fun -- "Could it be Diane?!" -- but once he does go and meet with the mystery woman, and it turns out to be her, it's too shoddy to turn that into another cliffhanger. What will it be next time, Diane enters the prison cell, takes a look at Cooper, makes a face, then we cut to the Bang Bang Bar for another popular music experience?


Jonah wrote:so far it doesn't feel like his odyssey back to the town, it just feels like they're killing time frankly.

Maybe it only feels like that because we love the show so much that we're afraid it's going to be wasted time or poor effort, and we're being hypercritical too early on. It's easy to start nitpicking when in such a state of mind.

For example, I caught myself thinking along those lines regarding scenes in the RR -- believing they were suffering due to this season's "fragmented presentation". Rather than being engrossed in the story, it became: "This was shot on the same day that the Norma & Shelly scene was shot. I bet all the diner scenes were all shot in a single day. Every scene with Shelly will probably take place here -- a bunch of tidbits parceled out over 18 episodes. They're just engaging the nostalgia factor and hoping we don't notice it's a rush job." I feel sad thinking that way about Twin Peaks since it's my favorite show. Small scripting and production decisions can easily smear an otherwise intriguing story, but perspective and frame of mind have just as much bearing. Hopefully I'm dead wrong and just being negative here and there.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:33 am

Most of the frustration seems to centre on the endless drawn out Dougieness.

If this were to wrap up pretty quickly, it would make the first 6 (7? 8?) episodes less agonising for most of us I suspect, since they would become a necessary prelude to something rather than a source of endless anxiety about the future direction of the series.

Something I've not seen discussed much (though I could easily have missed it) is the significance of the opening scene in Part 1 with the giant. Good Cooper is apparently fully present, but he fades out in a weird way. Where/when is that supposed to be? Is it a flash forwards? Is it where Cooper is in fact currently residing? What about the teaser clip that showed Cooper walking along dark corridors with a similar colour scheme to that scene (apparently with the one armed man)? Are we somehow going there later in the series?
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby fortinbras » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:34 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Side note: The people reacting to the accident pretty much ruined the scene. How in the world did those shots make it in?! Everything was wrong with them. The unconvincing expressions, the total lack of feeling. I mean it was completely awful. Even the appearance of the supposed area residents was unconvincing. Does anyone think they looked like people that would live around there? Or did they look like some "aspiring actor" kids bused in from Los Angeles? Think back on the grieving for Laura in the first two seasons. It was believable while this is just ridiculous. You see it and think, "Here are some people trying, and failing, to look distraught".


Is there something Lynch wants to tell us by showing us how the people react? As opposed to how Carl Rodd reacts?
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:42 am

vicksvapor77 wrote:I did want to post, I tried to do a rough count of how many minutes were spent in the town of Twin Peaks in each part. I think I counted the bands up until the end credits started rolling but I'd have to double-check:

Part 1: 9 mins
Part 2: 8 mins
Part 3: 7 mins
Part 4: 24 mins
Part 5: 20+ mins
Part 6: 22+ mins

So yes, we are definitely spending more town in the town lately. I hope the trend continues!


Thank you, a great summary.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby TheAlien » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:43 am

Audrey Horne wrote:Niomi Watts scene with the debt collectors was pretty good.


It was hilarious and showed us that her worries aren't as bad as some of the other characters horror :shock:
For I am I: ergo, the truth of myself; my own sphinx, conflict, chaos, vortex—asymmetric to all rhythms, oblique to all paths. I am the prism between black and white: mine own unison in duality.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby TheAlien » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:54 am

Leacock wrote:I am even more convinced that Richard Horne is Audrey's child.

Aside from the supernatural aspects of the character (which points to a non-mundane parentage) they seemed to be painting him as a little more sympathetic early on in the episode, which brought to mind how Audrey had originally seemed like a terrible person until you got to know her a little better.


He now seems to me like a more "scared for his life" version of Frank Booth.....if he where just the little guy, rather than the big guy
For I am I: ergo, the truth of myself; my own sphinx, conflict, chaos, vortex—asymmetric to all rhythms, oblique to all paths. I am the prism between black and white: mine own unison in duality.
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Re: Part 6 - Don't die (SPOILERS)

Postby TheAlien » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:01 am

okjose wrote:
wxray wrote:
garethw wrote:Question about the Drugged-Out Mom:

Is her "1-1-9" footage from tonight the same footage as we've seen before, or was it different? Looked really similar to me, but haven't compared.


I haven't compared, but she seemed to stutter in the same place. Also had Evan Williams before she took a drink. When she was passed out, the bottle turned to rum. I chalk that up to getting another bottle and not continuity. But anyway, it seemed to be the same. Will have to review.


Just compared them and it is the exact same footage, FYI.

S03E06
Image
S03E03
Image




It definitely felt strange but knowing that now, is very weird. Do you think there's any reason for this or Lynch is getting lazy with reusing footage? :oops:
For I am I: ergo, the truth of myself; my own sphinx, conflict, chaos, vortex—asymmetric to all rhythms, oblique to all paths. I am the prism between black and white: mine own unison in duality.
― Austin Osman Spare

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