Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

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mtwentz
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

claaa7 wrote:
4815162342 wrote:Josie's best scene was the blackmail head-to-head with Ben, that was the closest to the real Josie we saw. Although, as they speculate after her death, I'm not sure even she knew who the real Josie was at a certain point.
i really like the way Josie was described in the book a lot better than she eventually turned out in the series.. agreed about both the blackmail scene with Ben as well as the Hank Jennings/Josie first meeting in S1. She also did a fine job in the Pilot imo.
Josie's biography was fascinating and it's a shame they did not really explore the dimensions of her character properly. In some ways, she could be a character you could cheer for and yet hate at the same time.

I just don't think she was played the right way by Joan Chen, who I understand is a very good actress otherwise. Her steely side was not shown very well and her character seemed too meek to match her actual biography as stated in the show.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Annie »

Best episode so far; love it!!
Keep your eye on the doughnut, not on the hole.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Agent Earle »

LateReg wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Rudagger wrote:
Exposition dumps are a writing no-no. It feels less like natural dialogue and more like name dropping references. I mean, at that point you could argue; well, they should've mentioned Norma, but, then they should've mentioned that it took place at Miss Twin Peaks, but, then you have to mention Windom Earle and his killing spree, oh, right, you have to also mention that Earle was Coops old partner who wanted revenge. At that point, you might as well just rewatch Season 2! So, frankly, your approach is the sloppy one ..

They gave what you needed to know. We've seen Norma already. Annie being her sister matters nil to the main thread of the story (and hell, barely mattered in the original run, it was just an easy tactic to drop a character in from thin air; Norma didn't seem to care at all that her sister was missing in the season 2 finale).

Frankly, I find this attitude baffling, especially considering the last couple episodes have been more respectful of the original run than most would've expected (Heidi, a possible Josie reference, not writing Harry out completely, Annie name drop, Doc Hayward talking about Coop, diary pages). I think you're expecting a retread more than a continuation.
Yeah, right - one of the main guys of this universe changes the name of a person that went under another name before our very eyes and ears, and I'm the sloppy one (I think we can now safely drop the "alternative timeline" theory that some here have clinged on to when confronted with many many many inconsistencies in the book). True, that was the tie-in book, this is the series, but still - it came from the SAME creative team and if that devil-may-care attitude towards previously established facts will eventually prevail in the new series, well, sorry, but that's just S L O P P Y, moreover, it's L A Z Y in my book, I don't care how you justify it. Frankly, what baffles me is that you're apparently okay with that kind of poor work one would expect from some cheap fan fiction (or not even there). And don't give me "TP has always had a checkered history when it came to consistency" routine as an excuse - they had 25 friggin' years to get their act together. Well, or at least 3 or thereabouts years that reportedly took them to write the third season. Didn't watch the old series except for the Pilot and the Finale? Back to the old drawing board, say I.

Who's talking about exposition dump??? A name here and a reference to an event there would hurt no-one, except totally fresh viewers, and I stand by my previous statement that they shouldn't proceed with what's more than clearly marketed as continuation of a franchise without arming themselves with knowledge of what came before. And now that you mention it, I don't see a thing wrong with acknowledging Earle, in fact, I damn well expect it. This new season puts Cooper front and center - how credible can it be without doing justice to the man who was probably the single most important person in his life outside his parents? Or should we just forget he existed just because some fans don't like him? Again, SLOPPY and FAN SERVICE-Y.
A. Let's wait and see about the errors in the tie-in book.

B. I personally don't care if Lynch/Frost stick to the continuity unless its important to the story they want to tell. It's more about feeling to me than exactness, and if the creators want to throw out certain elements they weren't fans of, I think that's their right, especially since they view this as a whole new thing, a chance to take control in ways that they regret not doing in the original series. (Even if it was Lynch's fault he went away, he did say ideally he would have directed every episode.) I would rather have certain elements not mentioned at all than find the creators beholden to things that they no longer have an interest in.

C. On points A and B, I'd say that even if there are errors and changes, it can still make things interesting and mysterious. Maybe annoying to hardcore fans who know the series inside out and have favorite characters and who find meaning in things that the creators don't, but interesting in light of the creators' wishes. I don't find any of the changes sloppy or lazy, but rather interesting, the sign of artists making what they want to make in the current moment. Seizing that moment is what this is all about.
Okay. You don't care about continuity but I do. Hence, I find such attitude lazy and sloppy. Your approach can be caricatured like this: maybe come season four, they will no longer "have an interest" in Cooper being an FBI agent - let's make him into a mailman! Maybe come season four, they will no longer "feel" the town of Twin Peaks as a part of the Pacific Northwest - hey, let's set it in Hawaii! And maybe come season four, Lynch will find this or that reason to decide season three "sucks"; will you all change the record accordingly?
And no, they don't view this as a "whole new thing", at least they didn't last time I checked (maybe you know something more from some recent Lynch's interview?). Going in in the fall of 2014, they made an effort telling us this is a C O N T I N U A T I O N of the previous show. They even went as far as to retain the title which, lo and behold, reads T W I N P E A K S. Fancy that.
Last edited by Agent Earle on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Agent Earle »

N. Needleman wrote:Never change, Earle.
Why would I? Just because you'd like me to?
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by asquideatingdough »

I love Diane's colors-her black, red, and blue nails. Lots of red and blue items in her apartment. And her red robe with blue flowers made me think of Lil, blue rose, etc.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by BigEd »

Gordon, Tammy and Albert on the plane looking at the fingerprints. Did Albert suggest that the left ring print taken from Mr. C was backwards (mirror image), and that somebody at the prison flipped the image so that it would match Coop's old FBI prints? It wasn't clear, but I think that's what was suggested. Then, Gordon walked through the "It’s very, very good to see you again, old friend" on Tammy's fingers showing that the word Mr. C flipped when he "failed to greet them properly" corresponded to the finger with a mirror print of Cooper's. Is this correct?
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by DeepBlueSeed »

Nighthawk wrote:
Hockey Mask wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
I think that is close to the truth. We have to wonder though, what was it that made her not recognize Cooper as a doppelganger years before, when he presumably raped/assaulted her. Cooper must have been someone she trusted, and the trust was mutual, as evidenced by Cooper's recordings in the original series. The good Dale entrusted Diane with most of his intimate thoughts, not all perhaps, but far more than would be shared with a mere acquaintance or a work colleague. Diane has changed her mind about Cooper and the FBI (especially) in the 20+ year interval between then and today. What happened? How did the doppelganger manage to fool her, given that she would have none of his cr*p today?
Harry didn't notice either in S2. In fact, the audience didn't know either for those few minutes. Maybe he has progressively gotten worse.
Yes,this could be true. After all, Leland has managed to conceal his Bob identity for decades. Though there were clues, that both his wife and daughter picked up on, realizing that something was wrong with him, before he went on a killing spree. I think that Diane would've been quicker to identify the threat though. I am very interested to see how this angle of the "bad" coop story pans out.
Also noteworthy that we, the audience who've got to know Coop for two seasons, don't notice anything wrong until he goes to brush his teeth, headbutt the mirror, and grin at BOB reflected back at him. He still has blue eyes, from what I recall. I think it's time that changes him into the person we see now, either because the original he copies is no longer available to copy, or because he's able to indulge in his most jaded desires.

To be fair, 25 years on and it looks like he's pretty much exhausted any joy he gets out of doing horrible things, not looking anything like the deliriously grinning doppelganger we saw at the end of season 2. If we imagine this clean cut mischievous doppel Coop doing all the things we suspect him of doing, rather than dark and brooding modern doppel Coop, it's possible to see him getting away with much more.
"The stories that I wanna tell you about... "
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Hockey Mask »

BigEd wrote:Gordon, Tammy and Albert on the plane looking at the fingerprints. Did Albert suggest that the left ring print taken from Mr. C was backwards (mirror image), and that somebody at the prison flipped the image so that it would match Coop's old FBI prints? It wasn't clear, but I think that's what was suggested. Then, Gordon walked through the "It’s very, very good to see you again, old friend" on Tammy's fingers showing that the word Mr. C flipped when he "failed to greet them properly" corresponded to the finger with a mirror print of Cooper's. Is this correct?
That's where I'm at on it.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Nighthawk wrote:BTW... Dougie was a shady character himself before "good" Cooper essentially took over his body. He was a compulsive gambler, spending money on prostitutes while he had a beautiful wife and a son in need of him at home.
I think the Mad Men parallels in Dougie's world that I and others have noted (exact same painting in office, Heisman-type trophy behind Bushenell's desk, the MM-ness of the "Bill Shaker of Allied Chemicals" character) are important to the equation in figuring out who Dougie is and what he means. Let me digress a bit before circling back to this.

In the Part 6 review on his blog, Lost in the Movies fascinatingly pointed out a moment in The Art Life where DKL rather existentially says he doesn't know what would have happened if he hadn't gotten the call to come on board at AFI, and Lost relates this to DougieCoop's existential displacement. The more I think about this, the more fascinating it becomes.

As we learn in MLMT, Coop dreamed of being in the FBI since he was a young boy. I would bet that many of us here on this board had dreams of working some sort of law enforcement jobs (for me, it was a private investigator -- like Mr. Frost, I loved Sherlock Holmes). Kids dream of adventurous lives where they can solve mysteries. (See Sonny Jim reading the Hardy Boys -- also a childhood favorite of mine.) However, most of us grow up and realize we're not cut out for such work, or that the particular job/life we imagined as kids doesn't actually exist except in books/movies.

Coop, in the original show, gets to live the dream most of us wished for. He's a handsome, charming FBI agent, beloved by all, who gets to go interesting places and solve fascinating crimes, K.O.ing the bad guys and saving the day with his intellect and physical finesse in a world of clearly-delineated good and evil. He fulfilled his childhood fantasy.

Most of us don't, however. Most of us drop our childhood dreams and take a job that we may find some satisfaction in, but probably wouldn't even be our second or third pick if we truly had our druthers. We settle down, and attempt to find purpose in starting a family, raising children, passing the torch. For many people, that's enough, and the childhood dreams of adventure and excitement sleep dormant as happy memories occasionally revisited. Others aren't so lucky, and they become unsettled, disenchanted, desperate for escape. Cue the "displaced male with existential malaise" trope that has become the focus of much of the most acclaimed prestige drama from the Sopranos on. I think Dougie (the original Dougie) is implied to be very much a Don Draper-type character: someone who never grew past his childish self-centered dreams, who was dissatisfied with his family and mid-level corporate job and was probably depressed (I assumed that Dr. Ben is some sort of psychiatrist/psychologist Dougie sees), and who was desperate for escape. In other words, an alternate version of Cooper, one who didn't get to live the proverbial dream.

Now the real Coop has been stripped of everything and slotted into this man's life: essentially, forced to live like the rest of us, or like an alternate-reality DKL whose film career didn't take off. He's a child, obsessed with badges and guns, but living in an adult world working a desk job and raising a kid. Give this guy a dwarf coming at him with a gun and everything makes sense: he knows EXACTLY what to do! Throw in a talking braintree? All the better -- finally, something logical! But the rest of the time, he's a child, completely unable to comprehend this dull reality of fluorescent lights, elevators, minor office intrigue, and terrible cars. I think he's going to have to learn to come to terms with living in this reality, with living the life most of us have, before earning the right to go back to his old life of purpose and adventure.

Most of us assumed this season would be about Coop confronting the evil side of himself via DoppelCoop. But what we've gotten is a far more complex deconstruction of identity at a core level, before we can even begin to approach the more straightforward question of "good vs. evil." I'm sure I'm not close to fully comprehending it, but I'm so intrigued to see where it goes.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by OneEyedJack »

Agent Earle wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:Never change, Earle.
Why would I? Just because you'd like me to?
Earle: Keep you eye on the donut, not the hole. Is it future or is it past? We live inside a dream.

We've seen signs of Earle already. The bonsai tree. The case Doppelganger Coop used. And some of BOB (whom took his soul).

Needleman and I just want you to enjoy the show with us, you be you though!

To quote Mark Frost, 2 secrets he's learned about writing:

#1. Don't tell everything at once.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Agent Earle »

Hmm... Your mention of a bonsai tree in the new season did it - I'll shut up now. :)

Edit: oh, and thanks for the kind words.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by OneEyedJack »

Agent Earle wrote:Hmm... Your mention of a bonsai tree in the new season did it - I'll shut up now. :)
Nice! You bring up yrev good points but I think you should let it play out a bit before letting it ruin the experience of this season. Call me optimistic (and other things) I guess.

Some of us here thought Annie was non-existent after the book, yet here we are today. I want to find out what happened to Earle, Annie and the nurse too (ideally from Harry himself).
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by homieonice »

Wednesday random shower thought:

What if dopplecoop's plan is to destroy the black lodge - meaning he and any other escaped black lodge citizens can't be pulled back , ever, and so are free to roam the "real" world.

If this is his masterplan... then it would answer why Mike and the Evolution of the Arm are so keen to help Dale Coop stop dopple coop from reaching this goal.
There they are Albert... Faces of stone!
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by Blackasmidnight »

Anyone have a problem with the three pages of Laura's pages being found? In FWWM, Laura had already given the diary to Harold Smith BEFORE she encountered Annie in her dream later in the movie. Therefore, she never had a chance to write Annie's message/warning in her 'secret diary.' Any theories?
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Post by mtwentz »

Agent Earle wrote:Hmm... Your mention of a bonsai tree in the new season did it - I'll shut up now. :)

Edit: oh, and thanks for the kind words.
With most works of fiction there are potential continuity issues and plot holes. I believe the best way to enjoy these works of art is to not focus on these inevitable issues and just be blissfully ignorant of them.
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