Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

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Skip Bittman
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Skip Bittman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:33 pm

Agent Sam Stanley wrote:I don't get it. I always thought 'tough cookie' meant she's 'tough to handle', has a 'strong personality', things like that. Am I missing something?


Yeah, that's exactly what it means. Tough cookie, hard nut to crack: hardheaded, stubborn. It isn't inherently sexist at all, since when were cookies feminine? Just google "he was a tough cookie," say. Hundreds of thousands of results.
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Agent Sam Stanley
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Sam Stanley » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:29 pm

I figured, thanks for clearing that up.

Honestly I can't see the sexism a lot of people are talking about. Janey-E stands up to anyone who threatens her family and Diane is clearly showing she won't take shit from anyone as well, not even work. As for Tammy, I think we need to give her some time to grow.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:45 pm

Presumably they meant that the comment seemed dismissive and insulting (through the tone and delivery rather than just the meaning of the words).

It's part of the professional "take offence" MO. See also a) A black woman in a film represents all black women, and the entire history of the black race, b) A woman in a film represents all women (who are a completely homogeneous group with a single collection of experiences), and any slight of a woman in a film is therefore an explicit attack on females in general, c) A man in a film who is portrayed as overtly sexist means that the entire work is overtly sexist.

Or maybe I'm just being cynical. I don't how many safety winks I need to put in this post. It seems to me that the problem with this sort of film "criticism" is that it takes specific instances of character and tries to generalise them, then uses this without irony to complain about generalisations.
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alreadygoneplaces
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:22 pm

Agent Sam Stanley wrote:A friend of mine just tweeted "Gordon calling Diane a 'tough cookie' was sexist and condescending, like this whole S3 so far".

I don't get it. I always thought 'tough cookie' meant she's 'tough to handle', has a 'strong personality', things like that. Am I missing something?


As much as I love Lynch, I tend to take issue the gender politics in his work, TP:TR included. But I don't see anything wrong with the 'tough cookie' remark. It could be construed that way though if they're not so familiar with the term (which I've heard used enough times to describe men too). That said, Gordon is still, in his own words, "old school", which puts it kindly.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:40 pm

Soolsma wrote:Woah! Excited over the excitement for ep 8. Curious if it's due to revelations or just more mysteries.

For me it wasn't really either of those. It was just a hauntingly beautiful hour of TV.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:13 pm

I almost wish that there were non-spoiler threads for the episodes, for those of us who are forced to watch after a delay. In those hours that I'm desperately trying to hold off reading the spoiler thread, I just want to read "wow", "omg!", etc, to build anticipation. Using the previous episode thread seems to work well for this.

Anyway, Part 8 justifies the hype.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:33 am

baxter wrote:Presumably they meant that the comment seemed dismissive and insulting (through the tone and delivery rather than just the meaning of the words).

It's part of the professional "take offence" MO. See also a) A black woman in a film represents all black women, and the entire history of the black race, b) A woman in a film represents all women (who are a completely homogeneous group with a single collection of experiences), and any slight of a woman in a film is therefore an explicit attack on females in general, c) A man in a film who is portrayed as overtly sexist means that the entire work is overtly sexist.

Or maybe I'm just being cynical. I don't how many safety winks I need to put in this post. It seems to me that the problem with this sort of film "criticism" is that it takes specific instances of character and tries to generalise them, then uses this without irony to complain about generalisations.


No, looking at the cultural context as it pertains to how demographics are portrayed is just another way of analyzing art. Nothing's made in a vacuum, and if the only black woman in a work is portrayed in lazy, stereotypical way or if there's only one woman at all in a show with diverse men, and the woman's portrayed in a lazy, stereotypical way then we've found a weak spot.

Lynch's work is definitely open for gender criticism, and that's part of what makes it utterly fascinating. His method of creation relies a lot on cultural touchstones, including sexist ideas, and sometimes they're just there but sometimes he completely takes them to pieces as part of his analysis. That's why I've never gotten the feminist dismissal his work gets. Yeah, there's a lot of crap art out there where you can just roll your eyes at the portrayal of women, but Lynch takes his work to a level of character examination that gives another dimensional to even the stereotyped female characters. Twin Peaks isn't just an exploitive use of violence against women and sexual violence, the treatment of Laura is an in-depth exploration of that.

I mean, see the basis for the objections, but I think Lynch has made a complex enough work that calling the whole thing sexist and dismissive is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Doris and Frank are an eyerollingly sexist dynamic that he adds another dimension to in the second episode. The explanation makes them still stereotypical, but more complex and a kinder view of traditional femininity. Janey-E was presented as the nagging wife early on, and was unlikable because she was primarily seen berating Dale (not Dougie, for whom it was justified, but Dale so we were mad at her) before we see another dimensional of her where she PROTECTS him and we realize that her harshness to him is logical and a necessity right now. It's taking a sexist stereotype and showing that we've been unfairly judging them. Personally, I await this treatment for Tammy. I have a feeling we're going to see something interesting with her too.

For the original matter, though. "Tough cookie" is kind of condescending. He's calling her a cookie, taking her very powerful personality and boiling it down to something cute and nonthreatening. (Perhaps to cover that Gordon is himself too intimidated by Diane to approach her alone.) But it's Gordon Cole, it's in character for him to make a compliment that's also kind of condescending and he does condescend to Albert and Coop a lot too. And Lynch lampshaded Cole's sexism in the scene with Denise, she was worried he intended to put the moves on Tammy. With Cole, Lynch is presenting a man who has the deepest respect and affection for those around them but who can't shake his old-fashioned mannerisms. A flawed character, presented to the audience for love and respect. Played by no coincidence by Lynch himself.

It's kind of beautiful.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby baxter » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:31 am

I guess what bothers me is that context is hugely important and I hate it when it is ignored.

To take an example where I was on the other side of the fence, Jurassic World really bothered me for some reason. It's an enormously successful film in which a successful career woman is lampooned for neglecting her maternal instinct, but is redeemed when she sheds clothes and runs off with a hunk. I found it jarring to the point of disbelief.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:41 am

baxter wrote:I guess what bothers me is that context is hugely important and I hate it when it is ignored.

To take an example where I was on the other side of the fence, Jurassic World really bothered me for some reason. It's an enormously successful film in which a successful career woman is lampooned for neglecting her maternal instinct, but is redeemed when she sheds clothes and runs off with a hunk. I found it jarring to the point of disbelief.


Oh, I hate when context is ignored too. Had the same feelings about Jurassic World although the presence of the T-Rex fight makes me forget them sometimes.

I think the big thing for me is the expectation that a piece of art must be perfect to have value. Our society is screwed up so our art will be too. You have to weigh the bad messages with the good messages and come up with whether or not you think the thing was worth watching, but even then I think some people will decide its not worth it. Mileage may vary.
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Soolsma
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Soolsma » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:47 am

Ross wrote:
Soolsma wrote:Woah! Excited over the excitement for ep 8. Curious if it's due to revelations or just more mysteries.

For me it wasn't really either of those. It was just a hauntingly beautiful hour of TV.


It was! But it was the only episode I didnt rewatch yet, it was a bit too intense for that.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:15 pm

"Tough cookie" is Cole's venachukar. He obviously has admiration for Diane, but is saying she is no push over. If he called her Aces or Top Drawer would we say it's sexist because he's equating her to playing cards or furniture?!
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BigEd
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:33 pm

If somebody looks down on me, considers me an object, whatever...... I would rather they just be themselves than try to hide as "the man behind the (PC) mask." That is always transparent and more insulting than what they are trying to hide. Sure, anybody can learn and read a script, but it doesn't change who they are in the real world. Anybody who thinks they're going to change the world by changing people who aren't close to them is just naïve. I'm a "tough cookie" and I can take it! :lol:
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:"Tough cookie" is Cole's venachukar. He obviously has admiration for Diane, but is saying she is no push over. If he called her Aces or Top Drawer would we say it's sexist because he's equating her to playing cards or furniture?!


Also worth noting that DKL calls Laura Dern "Tidbit" in real life. (A scene in the Lynch 2 documentary shows him defining the term for her, and the two joking that she's just a piece of meat to him.)

But the "tough cookie" thing just seems like something a 55-year-old diner waitress might say (or Coco from MD). It strikes me more as a manifestation of DKL's archaic "holy smokes" shtick than something egregiously sexist.
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:58 pm

This


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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:45 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:"Tough cookie" is Cole's venachukar. He obviously has admiration for Diane, but is saying she is no push over. If he called her Aces or Top Drawer would we say it's sexist because he's equating her to playing cards or furniture?!


Also worth noting that DKL calls Laura Dern "Tidbit" in real life. (A scene in the Lynch 2 documentary shows him defining the term for her, and the two joking that she's just a piece of meat to him.)

But the "tough cookie" thing just seems like something a 55-year-old diner waitress might say (or Coco from MD). It strikes me more as a manifestation of DKL's archaic "holy smokes" shtick than something egregiously sexist.


Also in those two scenes (the tough cookie one and the tough dame one) we're dealing with men that are used to getting their way getting severely put in their place by women. Seems like the writers are trying to develop something rather than being unknowingly sexist.

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