Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

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Flanella
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Flanella » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:36 am

Hi all, first post from a longtime lurker and former TPgazette poster, was 17 when TP first aired. For many years TP in DL's words has been "dead as a doornail", dunno if it has been mentioned already but it's funny that a proper "doornail" was key in finding Laura's diary missing pages :-)
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Mystery Roach
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Mystery Roach » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:20 am

I just had a revelation. Maybe this is nothing new to the rest of you, but it blew my mind.

When this episode aired, I had a big problem with what was in the missing pages, because as presented in Fire Walk with Me, Laura gave Harold the diary before having the dream or discovering that BOB was her father. Surely such a huge plot point couldn't rest on a continuity error that big.

So I just re-examined Fire Walk with Me and made a startling discovery that I'm not sure people realize. All of the first scenes with Laura: her and James at school, her and Donna talking about falling through space, then her going home, finding the pages missing and going to Harold's, along with the accompanying scenes in the Missing Pieces, all take place on the day she died.

I know this because she's wearing the exact same outfit in those scenes that she has on in the morning of her last day, and then later at Bobby's (I always wondered why they didn't show more of that day). When Cooper says "who knows where or when", we actually jump ahead in time to the day Laura dies and have those scenes. Then we go back in time a few days to see Cooper again with Albert, and that leads us to the first time we see her chronologically, which is at the RR when she gets the painting.

When you realize that those scenes take place on the last day of her life, they actually make a lot more sense and carry a lot more weight. Plus it solves that whole continuity problem, and explains why Leland took the pages to begin with (he checked the diary because she was acting scared of him that morning).
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counterpaul
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby counterpaul » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:38 am

Mystery Roach wrote:When you realize that those scenes take place on the last day of her life, they actually make a lot more sense and carry a lot more weight. Plus it solves that whole continuity problem, and explains why Leland took the pages to begin with.


You know, I don't for a second think this is what Lynch intended, but it is one of the better fan retcons I've seen.

My only real problem with it is emotional rather than plot-driven. Her interaction with Bobby outside the school and especially her dancing in her room before she finds the missing pages just do not jibe with the tone of what we see during the beautiful "Birds in Hell" / "Moving Through Time" montage of her last day later. Especially the dancing seems all wrong.

Still, if you can't love it without some rationalization that makes the discrepancy of when she dropped the diary off with Harold work, this may be the best way to do it.
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BigEd
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Mystery Roach wrote:I just had a revelation. Maybe this is nothing new to the rest of you, but it blew my mind.

When this episode aired, I had a big problem with what was in the missing pages, because as presented in Fire Walk with Me, Laura gave Harold the diary before having the dream or discovering that BOB was her father. Surely such a huge plot point couldn't rest on a continuity error that big.

So I just re-examined Fire Walk with Me and made a startling discovery that I'm not sure people realize. All of the first scenes with Laura: her and James at school, her and Donna talking about falling through space, then her going home, finding the pages missing and going to Harold's, along with the accompanying scenes in the Missing Pieces, all take place on the day she died.

I know this because she's wearing the exact same outfit in those scenes that she has on in the morning of her last day, and then later at Bobby's (I always wondered why they didn't show more of that day). When Cooper says "who knows where or when", we actually jump ahead in time to the day Laura dies and have those scenes. Then we go back in time a few days to see Cooper again with Albert, and that leads us to the first time we see her chronologically, which is at the RR when she gets the painting.

When you realize that those scenes take place on the last day of her life, they actually make a lot more sense and carry a lot more weight. Plus it solves that whole continuity problem, and explains why Leland took the pages to begin with (he checked the diary because she was acting scared of him that morning).


Fantastic observation! I didn't care about any perceived lack of continuity, but maybe this will be of help to those who did/do.
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Mystery Roach
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Mystery Roach » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:54 pm

counterpaul wrote:
Mystery Roach wrote:When you realize that those scenes take place on the last day of her life, they actually make a lot more sense and carry a lot more weight. Plus it solves that whole continuity problem, and explains why Leland took the pages to begin with.


You know, I don't for a second think this is what Lynch intended, but it is one of the better fan retcons I've seen.

My only real problem with it is emotional rather than plot-driven. Her interaction with Bobby outside the school and especially her dancing in her room before she finds the missing pages just do not jibe with the tone of what we see during the beautiful "Birds in Hell" / "Moving Through Time" montage of her last day later. Especially the dancing seems all wrong.

Still, if you can't love it without some rationalization that makes the discrepancy of when she dropped the diary off with Harold work, this may be the best way to do it.


The thing is, I don't think it's a retcon. After going back and examining the film, I do believe this is exactly what Lynch intended. When you see her that first day, she's wearing the exact same outfit as on the day she died, and all the times we see her correspond to times that are missing from that last day.

And emotionally it does work, when you realize just how much she hides what she's really going through. She leaves her house in the morning and we see her walking down the sidewalk crying. Then she meets up with Donna and puts on a smile like nothing is wrong. But when she's alone with James she shows just how distraught she really is. She goes back and forth between emotional states because she has a lot of practice doing that. And all of those scenes are actually more poignant and emotional when you realize when they're actually happening.

I get your point about the dancing scene, but maybe she's just in a better mood again by that point. After all it already doesn't jibe emotionally with the scene of her and James or the scene at Donna's just before. As I said, she's all over the place emotionally anyway. And the Bobby scene at school was just her being cruel until he threatened to not give her coke, which she went to get from him later that night. I don't see how that's too emotionally removed from anything else. I think maybe it's just the Thought Gang music in those scenes that makes her seem happier than she is lol.

I actually discovered this because I was curious whether it was possible that it could be the last day, which would explain the apparent continuity gaffe. And much to my surprise, she was wearing the same outfit. There's no way that's a coincidence. Watch it again. Study it. I do believe I'm right.
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counterpaul
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby counterpaul » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:23 pm

Mystery Roach wrote:The thing is, I don't think it's a retcon. After going back and examining the film, I do believe this is exactly what Lynch intended. When you see her that first day, she's wearing the exact same outfit as on the day she died, and all the times we see her correspond to times that are missing from that last day.


I really like you're argument here, and if the film existed in a vacuum, I might even be ready to buy it.

But have you seen The Missing Pieces?

I feel kinda bad raining on your excellent post, but if Lynch's intent matters to you, The Missing Pieces does pretty much destroy your premise. The happy Palmer dinner in which Leland encourages them to learn to introduce themselves in Norwegian takes place on that first day. The dinner is placed quite undeniably on the same day you're saying is her last day by the scene in which Laura runs into Sarah with the groceries as she's on her way to see Harold and tells her she "forgot her books." Right before the family dinner/language lessons, Sarah confronts Laura about her lie regarding the books. There's no other way to read it but that it is on the same day as her visit to Harold.

Further, her actual last meal is also included in The Missing Pieces. Leland is at the Great Northern and Laura and Sarah sit mostly silently over asparagus before Laura heads to Bobby's.

I'm afraid, as far as Lynch's original intent goes, it's an open and shut case.

Now, I suppose you could argue that the reason Lynch cut out that fantastic dinner scene (and it is absolutely fantastic) is that he intended to create the impression that the first time we see Laura is on her last day. It's a bit of a stretch, but weirder things have happened.
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Mystery Roach
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Mystery Roach » Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:50 pm

counterpaul wrote:But have you seen The Missing Pieces?

I feel kinda bad raining on your excellent post, but if Lynch's intent matters to you, The Missing Pieces does pretty much destroy your premise. The happy Palmer dinner in which Leland encourages them to learn to introduce themselves in Norwegian takes place on that first day. The dinner is placed quite undeniably on the same day you're saying is her last day by the scene in which Laura runs into Sarah with the groceries as she's on her way to see Harold and tells her she "forgot her books." Right before the family dinner/language lessons, Sarah confronts Laura about her lie regarding the books. There's no other way to read it but that it is on the same day as her visit to Harold.

Further, her actual last meal is also included in The Missing Pieces. Leland is at the Great Northern and Laura and Sarah sit mostly silently over asparagus before Laura heads to Bobby's.

I'm afraid, as far as Lynch's original intent goes, it's an open and shut case.

Now, I suppose you could argue that the reason Lynch cut out that fantastic dinner scene (and it is absolutely fantastic) is that he intended to create the impression that the first time we see Laura is on her last day. It's a bit of a stretch, but weirder things have happened.


I admit there's no easy way around that one. I had watched the family dinner scene again, but didn't watch the other one. She's wearing that same outfit in both scenes, so I guess I may have to concede your point about intent, unlesss the original intent of the family dinner was replaced by the more solemn mother-daughter affair, and they just presented both scenes separately. I guess it's more likely that they are different days, but it's still a rather incredible coincidence. I guess I should read the script again. Personally I'd rather have to reconcile that than the diary pages being taken before anything that was written in them happened, so for my personal continuity it will have to do. I am a bit more puzzled about the intent of it all now though.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:12 pm

It might just be an instance of authenticity: people rewear outfits in their lives. This is something Mad Men made a point of: for all the sexy wardrobes, Matt Weiner always made sure characters wore the same outfits multiple times throughout a season to show that they did have finite budgets. Maybe DKL simply had Laura in the same thing on two different days in the interest of verisimilitude (as well as symmetry -- the first and last days depicted in the film).
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)q

Postby Mystery Roach » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:15 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:It might just be an instance of authenticity: people rewear outfits in their lives. This is something Mad Men made a point of: for all the sexy wardrobes, Matt Weiner always made sure characters wore the same outfits multiple times throughout a season to show that they did have finite budgets. Maybe DKL simply had Laura in the same thing on two different days in the interest of verisimilitude (as well as symmetry -- the first and last days depicted in the film).


I get that. It's just strange to me that I watched the film specifically looking to see if she might be wearing the same outfit, and she was. It does make me wonder, and it's enough to make it work for me. Then again, it could also be intentional to bring her full circle from the first time we see her.

Edit: Here's something interesting regarding intent that I wonder how people interpret. In the train car, Leland holds up the diary pages and says, "Your diary. I always thought you knew it was me." This makes it seem like he knew she had only just discovered who she was from those diary pages, but she only found out the night before she died. And according to The Return, she wrote the entry that night. So there's no time she could have given the book to Harold other than on the day she died, and the movie has always sort of indicated that, which I always found a little confusing anyway.

Edit: I just checked the script and it definitely identifies that day as 7 days before her death, so that was clearly the original intention and there's no debate about that. However I'm now left to wonder if Lynch could have somehow had this thought while making the film and left it ambiguous on purpose. It wouldn't be out of character for him, considering the way he's created and changed entire concepts on the fly in the past. At the very least I have to question whether he knew the continuity would fit that way when he wrote the solution.

I also question the reason for having Annie tell her to write it in her diary unless they were setting up the sequel, which means she could only have written it in those missing pages since we've seen all the others already. It's like they knew this was the answer then, but didn't write the film in a way that made sense. Did Lynch account for that in the shooting and editing? I don't know, but it pretty much works now either way if you want to view it that way.
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MoondogJR
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby MoondogJR » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:40 am

Mystery Roach wrote:I actually discovered this because I was curious whether it was possible that it could be the last day, which would explain the apparent continuity gaffe. And much to my surprise, she was wearing the same outfit. There's no way that's a coincidence. Watch it again. Study it. I do believe I'm right.


This makes sense. I have never watched it this way, but it seems like a very Lynchian thing to do.
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The Archivist
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby The Archivist » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:39 pm

I was watching the ending of episode 7. As it has been discussed before, there is some eerie music under the Diner's music. And then the customers change.

I wonder if that happened at the same time as BadCooper getting shot. Maybe that's what caused the customers to switch.

And I don't know, but the eerie music in the diner scene and that in BadCooper scene might even be the same.

Just a theory. ;)
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:06 pm

Bad Coop gets shot at... three o'clock in the morning?
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:16 am

douglasb wrote:at... three o'clock in the morning?


Time zones. Yankton is in SE South Dakota, Central Standard Time. Twin Peaks and Las Vegas are in Pacific Standard Time, which is two hours earlier. 1 AM at the prison, which was the jailbreak, was 11 PM in TP and LV.
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nick1218
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:39 am

Jerry Horne wrote:TWIN PEAKS. THE RETURN.

There's a body all right.

Sunday, June 18th, 2017. 9pm Eastern / 6pm Pacific

Showtime.

For active discussion of Part Seven. Spoilers are naturally permitted.


Definitely a good episode, but I do love to focus on the negatives (it helps me get past them) That said, the attack scene, man that was odd. Could an assassin pick a worse place to try to shoot someone? How did he get away so easily? People would scatter like crazy at the site of a gun fight, yet people stood there just feet away. And the little interviews with onlookers - it was so rushed and strange. It gave me an Inland Empire vibe, with the kind of fish-eye lens look and the camera shoved in peoples face. The way those were shot was so different that other scenes. The cinematography has been so varied. And the tree popping up and helping him was so odd it was off putting.

Ok whining over. Good ep though
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Re: Part 7 - There's a body all right (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:39 pm

nick1218 wrote: it was so rushed and strange. It gave me an Inland Empire vibe, with the kind of fish-eye lens look and the camera shoved in peoples face. The way those were shot was so different that other scenes. The cinematography has been so varied.


Well, it was news footage being captured. That's why it was shot handheld and using wide angle lenses. In Episode 10 you see a news segment created with those very same shots!

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