Part 8 - Gotta light? (SPOILERS)

[h2nho]

Trinity:

Father
Son
Holy Ghost

Experiment
BOB
The Woodsman

“It might or might not be significant that the first detonation was code named Trinity, and this series is built around a trinity of Dale Cooper figures: the BOB-possessed Coop, the “good” Coop who’s been trapped in the Black Lodge for 25 years, and Dougie Jones…. "
— Matt Zoller Seitz | Vulture http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/twin-pea ... hback.html

Isn't it funny that a critic many thought would be dismissive of new Twin Peaks actually is contributing some of the most nuanced and layered commentary? I read Vulture after every episode.

[Bookworm]

But it is weird in that the loaded gun doesn't fire. At all. It clicks as if it is empty. Mr C is typically good at predicting things that will happen, yet somehow has not foreseen this, being caught off guard and staring at his gun in disbelief (or confusion, or something - it's hard to read Bad Coop as he doesn't seem to do emotions).

There are lots of ways to modify a firearm so it won't fire. Easiest is to remove the firng pin. The bullets could also be dummies. Same weight and appearance as working bullets but no powder.

Yeah, that a bit strange since when he was in jail, DoppelCoop saw in advance the coming of the guard with the food "And now the food come" So that curious that he wasn't able to predict the trick with the gun.

[krishnanspace]

But it is weird in that the loaded gun doesn't fire. At all. It clicks as if it is empty. Mr C is typically good at predicting things that will happen, yet somehow has not foreseen this, being caught off guard and staring at his gun in disbelief (or confusion, or something - it's hard to read Bad Coop as he doesn't seem to do emotions).

There are lots of ways to modify a firearm so it won't fire. Easiest is to remove the firng pin. The bullets could also be dummies. Same weight and appearance as working bullets but no powder.

Yeah, that a bit strange since when he was in jail, DoppelCoop saw in advance the coming of the guard with the food "And now the food come" So that curious that he wasn't able to predict the trick with the gun.

Maybe he gets the food at the same time everyday,so he knows about it

[mtwentz]

There are lots of ways to modify a firearm so it won't fire. Easiest is to remove the firng pin. The bullets could also be dummies. Same weight and appearance as working bullets but no powder.

Yeah, that a bit strange since when he was in jail, DoppelCoop saw in advance the coming of the guard with the food "And now the food come" So that curious that he wasn't able to predict the trick with the gun.

Maybe he gets the food at the same time everyday,so he knows about it

Even Doppelgangers inhabited by BOB make mistakes now and then...

[federicomiozzo]

My guesses and my little sum up:

-Convenience Store being like the MacDonald Ranch House https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... -NOhLQL0lg just with Woodsman inside (see answer about woodsman down here). I think there are many of those facilities all around America, or the globe even (one in Buenos Aires maybe?), they work as decoy experiment facilities that look like something mundane so that people don't get too curious.

-Significance of Convenience store (with Girl from 1956 + boy): Can be the same store recladded 11 years after, or simply an esthetic cross-reference to give the viewer's subconscious some continuity between arcs of the episode.

-Space castle out on the ultraviolet sea where Giant and flapper woman reside: I guess that's what we call the White Lodge. Something beautiful, outwordly, and unexplainable. A place from which "good" observes that everything is balanced in the world to function properly. Made me think of The Chamber of Guf (Hebrew religion, search that up, very interesting)

-Flapper woman (Joy Nash): Man! Isn't she beautiful? She is the feminine counterpart of ????????. She adds "love" to the "creations of ????????

-Reason that "the Giant" is no longer credited as "the Giant" but now as "????????" (8 question marks): I do not know. I guess the name could reveal much.

-Girl from 1956: No idea yet. Probably simply the first girl to be possessed. Just right after she got initiated in the very first step leading to sex, a kiss. Sex is what draws bad energies and astral being to come during a ritual. Parson and Crowley were very aware of it. (Remember Part1&2 where the couple gets killed by the Experiment once they start making out, as if she was actratted/activated by their sexual activity.)

The boy meets girl part is very sweet to me, very very sweet and mellow, two clean pure souls having a walk in the middle of nowhere (coz they don't need anything but themselves, no cellphones, or gossiping or vehicles or shit) enjoying their company and sharing affection. To me this is Lynch take on what we lost. The beauty of the America that was. The Return is full of scenes where kids are sacrificed for the sake of the shitty life of today. I believe that this series is full of references to the loss of innocence suffered in particular by children. Sonny Jim sad face in the car (and JUST Dougie who is "pure" and not at all in our society current competitive and hysterical mindset notice that sadness and cries), the boy run over by Richard Horne which is a drug addict and a bad person, the son of the 119 drugged mother, abandoned on his couch.. etc


-Amphibibug/frogbug and it's speckled egg: One of the Experiment offspring. I think those eggs are not Bob, which can be seen as the BOB we know already when Experiments vomits stuff out. I feel like (especially after having read "Lynch on Lynch", reading him talking about his childhood raised in 1950/60 America) that as Lynch said the destruction of some kind of natural equilibrium began to take place in the late 40's 50s. I need to find the exact quote but the juice was that with the advent of plastic, big scale industrial production, mass production of war machine, and the starting of several wars arranged in an almost arbitrary fashion was the beginning of mass hysteria we are living into this day and age.

-Charred Lumberjack/hobos (credited as Woodsmen): Either offsprings of evil, or human experiments of radiation. Possesed entities, or the Dugpas.

-"THE" Woodsman/Abe Lincoln guy: Same as above

-"Gotta light?" The light= the atomic explosion, "We are here cause of you, where is that energy you released now?" Or maybe he just wanted to have a smoke so bad! Must be hard to be in the desert with no lighter on you.

-"This is the water, this is the well" chant: This is the water (Human Fear, garmonbozia) This is the well (Our plane of existence) Drink full and descend (Come here all of you woodsmen and lets have a blood orgy)

-BadCoop waking up from the Woodsmen's ritual: They need to keep the doppelgänger alive otherwise White Lodge wins. And they have to take care of BOB too.

-Vintage metal electicrical boxes: A way for energy to flow. Quantum physics magnetic field currents and shit

-White horsey: The white horse is pestilence and bad shit about to happen to whoever witnesses it, in biblical tradition

[LateReg]

Trinity:

Father
Son
Holy Ghost

Experiment
BOB
The Woodsman

“It might or might not be significant that the first detonation was code named Trinity, and this series is built around a trinity of Dale Cooper figures: the BOB-possessed Coop, the “good” Coop who’s been trapped in the Black Lodge for 25 years, and Dougie Jones…. "
— Matt Zoller Seitz | Vulture http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/twin-pea ... hback.html

Isn't it funny that a critic many thought would be dismissive of new Twin Peaks actually is contributing some of the most nuanced and layered commentary? I read Vulture after every episode.

I don't think anyone thought Matt Zoller Seitz would be dismissive of the new show. I never did. Hes one of the most thoughtful critics, for one thing, and he appreciates aesthetics and promotes discussions of actual filmmaking in film reviews. He also published that article about how Twin Peaks might not be the show we remember right before the new series aired, and in it he stated that he's not worried about the quality of the new Peaks, but about it's reception. In light of what we've gotten so far, that article is downright prophetic and proves that Seitz is on this show's wavelength. He also hasn't published a review of it for a few weeks, as he said it feels wrong to do so because of its unprecedented 18 hour movie presentation. The writer who does the recaps is a different writer, who views the show through a very feminist bent.

I think you may be thinking about Alan Sepinwall, who writes for Uproxx. He seemed dismissive of the show leading up to it but ended up liking the premiere, but he's been lukewarm on parts 4 thru 6, and then loved 7 and mostly liked 8. But he's still trying to bend the show to his rules of how TV should be; he's very into the ideas of episodes as an artform, and totally against the idea of television being created as a movie...he also suggested that since the nighttime scenes are so dark that he couldn't see Bob emerging in part 8 that Lynch should have tested it out on poor tv's to make sure they can handle the black levels, which is totally ignoring that Lynch said he knows the limitations of cable but that he built this thing for movie theaters. He's frustrating to read because of that.

[Mr. Reindeer]

Agreed on Sepinwall. I found his Mad Men and Breaking Bad recaps to be cream of the crop, but he's really not on my wavelength when it comes to TP/DKL.

[wxray]

he also suggested that since the nighttime scenes are so dark that he couldn't see Bob emerging in part 8 that Lynch should have tested it out on poor tv's to make sure they can handle the black levels, which is totally ignoring that Lynch said he knows the limitations of cable but that he built this thing for movie theaters. He's frustrating to read because of that.

I missed Bob on my sister's $2,000 LCD TV. Saw it just fine on my $300 plasma. I'm gonna miss plasma when they are all gone.

[wxray]

New idea on the girl and the frog.

What about "American Girl?"

I always found her name to be kind of odd. Why add the "American?" Forget the connection with the actress or her age, that doesn't matter.

But what we have is a space, maybe a room in the black lodge with a possible bomb victim. Maybe that room needed balance with a bomb perpetrator. American Girl takes the fall for us evil Americans and is spending time with Mother.

[Mr. Reindeer]

My TV is older, but I synced the brightness with that Eraserhead Blu Ray feature. Result = I also missed Bob on my first watch. However, he shows up perfectly when I watch the show on my f*cking phone (get real!).

I'm not so sure that DKL made this with theaterical display in mind. He knew the medium it would be screening on was cable TV. In Rodley's book, I believe he talks about laboriously making the original show to look and sound as good as possible for TV, and how frustrating it was that he couldn't fully cut loose (with the sound in particular) as he would if he were editing it for theatrical speakers and equipment, because it would have looked/sounded like crap given the limitations of TV.

[Mr. Strawberry]

Isn't it great when you think that you know what's coming, but instead, are treated to a completely different series of events that partially unravel mysteries while propelling things in some new direction? What a powerful hour!

Ray unable to move was very realistic! I've had nightmares like this, where I'm so scared to the bone that I can't talk or get away. No matter how much effort I put into it, all that I can do is moan, mumble, and crawl!

The Bomb: Thoughts of Japan immediately. That we could, and did, make something this nightmarishly destructive is unbelievable. You can bet your britches that the world is sinking to a new low when this is what we expend our brilliance creating. Such a murderous waste! Such a horrifying reality.

This reminded me of some of the worst nightmares that I've ever had. Many years ago it was a recurring dream, some endless explosion engulfing all of existence and accompanied by the loudest, most angry yell I've ever heard. It's my Dad's voice at his most furious, and it's my voice as well. The scariest thing imaginable to be in the middle of that, feeling its searing heat, hearing its potent wrath, and knowing that absolutely everything is over forever.

The late Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead was once asked why he did not continue to play some of the older songs that the fans just loved. He basically said he was bored with those particular songs, and if he could not entertain himself, he sure as hell could not entertain anyone else.

I feel Lynch's philosophy is quite similar to Garcia's in this regard. I think Lynch would find a simple nostalgia tour quite boring and I don't think he would have been involved in this project just to recreate something he already did 26 years ago.

Makes me think of Sergei Rachmaninoff. His "Prelude in C# Minor" for the piano was a smash hit, and he played it live so many times that he got tired of it, and started to switch it up and arrange it differently on the fly, improvising with it and so on. People were pissed! They yelled out that he was "getting it wrong" when he did this.

One more thing that left me puzzled and I didn't see mentioned anywhere. We know from Phillip Jeffries narrative that Lodge spirit meetings (I will continue to call them that despite the above) took place 'above a convenience store'. We get to see a place in episode 8, conveniently called a 'convenience store', but there does not seem to be an upper floor in that building. Of course it could have been built later on top of the old building, but I wonder if we are supposed to be wondering about that. Or perhaps the upper floor is invisible in a conventional way?

Although the front portion of the building is single story, it's obvious that a second floor exists further back. Staircases are pretty much never used purely for exterior roof access. It's a liability to provide such an easy method to get onto a roof. That staircase is leading to a second story room at the back of the structure. From the viewer's perspective it is not visible, but we can see the light that hangs above the door at the top of those stairs, that obviously leads into the room in question.

And although Angelo's new compositions are great, they are not on the same level as SE1 IMO. But don't get me wrong - I still love his music and will have the OST day one. But only few composers stay good until the end... i.E. John Barry.

Claude Debussy, Frederic Chopin, and Ludwig Van Beethoven -- just to name three well known individuals off the top of my head -- illustrate how composers only get better as they get older. Mainstream musical bands tend to decline as they age but that's an entirely different matter.

Thinking more about this episode the last couple of days, I thought explaining laura and bob was a pretty big mistake. The whole evil in the hearts of men didnt need explaining. The fact it struck a normalish family and drove her crazy has more power in it than magic giant sends laura palmer ball to earth.

It's not as literal as what you're describing. A "creator" is depicted sending a "spirit" to Earth, and judging from the apparatus in that theater, this is something he does as an integral part of his existence, and it could even be his main purpose. It's possible that every single spirit on the planet was sent on his behalf.

We're only seeing Laura sent because she is relevant to the events we are witness to. Why can't it be that each and every spirit is intended to serve a particular purpose or role, and that Laura is as "normal" as the rest of us (or conversely that we are all equally special)? I'm not implying that free will doesn't exist. In fact I would argue that finding and fulfilling one's purpose is probably not very common, thus demonstrating free will, infinite possibilities, and the eternal struggle of good versus evil.

Evil in the hearts of men: Yes, existing since the beginning of mankind, and very likely before it. We're shown a new development of the evil that is defined by willful eradication of life. This does not seem to be an "explanation" nor an indication that evil began here, but rather that murder and destruction have grown immensely in a single terrible advancement of violence. It's a recent event in history and a tremendously frightening evolution of malice.

[Harry S. Truman]

Took me a little over two days to get through all 66 pages of this thread. My head is spinning from all the information presented here. A few very broad thoughts:

1) I feel very strongly the implication in the opening scene is that the Woodsmen have extracted BOB completely from Evil Cooper. Doesn't make sense to me that they would remove him to the point where his whole face is completely visible outside of Cooper's body and then put him back in. Lot of people on here seem to think this is not what happened. I suppose (hope?) future episodes will make this clear. It will be interesting to see what Evil Cooper's personality is like free from BOB's influence. I said in another thread that over the course of 25 years, Evil Cooper has gone from mirror-smashing, manic-laughing, how's Annie? guy who seems to be as completely under BOB's control as Leland was seems to developing a personality independent of BOB and had largely sublimated BOB to a tiny part of his being. While in jail, it was almost as if he had to check to make sure BOB was even still there! So, I don't know that the removal of BOB will suddenly make Evil Cooper any less evil. It might make him less powerful. I do believe had Ray gotten off a final shot to the head, Evil Cooper would have died, that dopplegangers can actually die in the physical world.

2) Despite the fact Evil Cooper warned the warden bad things would happen to him if anything bad happened to Evil Cooper, it seems almost certain the warden was behind the gun in the glove compartment being unloaded. I mean, he was the one Evil Cooper told to put "a friend" in the glove compartment in the first place. Seems a little reckless on the warden's part, given Evil Cooper's dire warnings, but maybe the warden and Ray are in some kind of collusion, and the warden trusts in Ray's ability to help keep him safe. I never really understood if Mr. Strawberry was the name of the dog or a person. I don't think it much matters, nor will it be elaborated on any further. It was just a plot device to show how well prepared Evil Cooper is and how he possibly possesses some kind of supernatural ability to know the evil others have done (will he lose that power without BOB?). Thus, it does make it a little surprising that Evil Cooper would fall for such a simple trick. Perhaps that reflects how supremely cocky he'd become.

3) What is the love of the alternate timeline idea on this Website? Previously, I had to read pages of pages of how DougieCoop was supposedly in an alternate timeline, possibly in a different year altogether from the rest of the events presented on the show. I think Jade mailing the key to the Great Northern finally but the last nail in that theory's coffin. Now, we've got this running theory that BOB was plucked from Evil Cooper by the Woodsmen and sent back to 1945 to start an alternate timeline, that what we're seeing in the past is not the birth of BOB but the birth of an alternate timeline in which BOB and Laura are both apparently getting "do-overs". For the record, I think we are seeing NO alternate timelines of any form in The Return. I don't think that's a plot thread that interests Frost or Lynch. I strongly feel such theories are unnecessarily complicating things. I feel like they're probably being proposes by folks who watch lots of sci fi shows and are used to such things.

4) The theory that the Girl is Sarah Palmer and bug-frog is Laura got a lot of traction in the early pages of this thread but seems to have pretty much disappeared. Good! Frankly, I don't think Boy and Girl are going to turn out to be anybody specifically related to Twin Peaks, new or old. I think they're just archetypal figures meant to represent innocence and loss of innocence. While me may get some further scene showing how bug-frog has altered The Girl's personality, it's also entirely likely we won't see them again at all, that they've played their part in the show. Some people think it's wrong to assume bug-frog has evil intent, but given the circumstances surrounding bug-frog's arrival (the murders of two people, the weird incantation that left the Girl and possibly others powerless to resist, forced entry into The Girl's body) all feels very evil to me. I just don't believe shiny, Golden Globe Laura got turned into bug-frog to enter a human body. Yuck. No.

5) Someone posted a still of the car saying there were two microphones visible on the lefthand side of the screen that might indicate some kind of hidden meaning like the appearing/disappearing jet windows. I forwarded the screenshot to a friend, who was like what microphones? Those are reflections of the driver's hand on the gear shift. I looked again and, yep, that's exactly what they are. So, no big mystery there.

Is Obvious that the series is playing with time! the first scene of gigant and cooper probably is a scene of the past!! ( black and White), the scene where Hawk is walking by the forest very probably is of the future! Is very strange that Hawk didn´t say anything of glanstonbury grove in the chapters of after.

Are mixing the future and past in the series. i don´t know if there are alternate timelines on the series or if will have in the future, but the time and their possible distorsions are beeing very important in the series.

How you can see, to Lynch and Frost like play with time. i wouldn´t be so radical in this Topic.

[LateReg]

he also suggested that since the nighttime scenes are so dark that he couldn't see Bob emerging in part 8 that Lynch should have tested it out on poor tv's to make sure they can handle the black levels, which is totally ignoring that Lynch said he knows the limitations of cable but that he built this thing for movie theaters. He's frustrating to read because of that.

I missed Bob on my sister's $2,000 LCD TV. Saw it just fine on my $300 plasma. I'm gonna miss plasma when they are all gone.

That people have missed the Bob blob came as a shock to me, and it all started with me reading Sepinwall's post. Then I saw many others missed it too! The reason it came as a shock is because I saw it clear as day the first time through. I bought a 65" OLED to prepare for this, and spent some time looking for ideal settings. Even so, some of the black levels are still blotchy due to the stream...I hope. Sometimes digital photography still maintains some level of splotchiness. I hope the Blu-ray gives me the intended presentation.

[LateReg]

My TV is older, but I synced the brightness with that Eraserhead Blu Ray feature. Result = I also missed Bob on my first watch. However, he shows up perfectly when I watch the show on my f*cking phone (get real!).

I'm not so sure that DKL made this with theaterical display in mind. He knew the medium it would be screening on was cable TV. In Rodley's book, I believe he talks about laboriously making the original show to look and sound as good as possible for TV, and how frustrating it was that he couldn't fully cut loose (with the sound in particular) as he would if he were editing it for theatrical speakers and equipment, because it would have looked/sounded like crap given the limitations of TV.

Yes, at first I thought he was mentioning that this was the case again. But in some interviews it seems the opposite. I remember one interview stated that there are limitations, less dynamic sound and whatnot, that he had to deal with; but then another implied that he built it for the big screen regardless. It certainly seems like he expects that certain screens/sound systems won't be able to get across the nuances, so he recommends headphones. So I guess I figured that he built it for the big screen knowing that when it was transferred through cable wires and streaming that you wouldn't get the whole picture. It could just be that he limited himself, but if he did, there haven't been many signs of that yet especially in regards to sound.

[Coffee]

Strikes me that a lot of people are probably watching the new series on uncalibrated televisions. Lynch (and all television/filmmakers) create their work on calibrated monitors. If you haven't already, then you should really look into getting a professional out to calibrate your television/projector or even try it yourself using a disc such as Digital Video Essentials or the Spears & Munsil calibration disc.

All of a sudden your black levels will reveal an entire host of new details that are MEANT to be seen. Plus you will be experiencing the art the way in which the artist intended it to be seen. Very important.

This also helps with the CGI effects also (higher dynamics and sets with interpolation settings turned on will make CGI look awful).