Part 8 - Gotta light? (SPOILERS)

[DeepBlueSeed]

Who's phone does Ray use to call 'Philip' from, after he shoots the bad Cooper?

If it is his own phone, when did he get it back? We seen bad Cooper getting his phone back but not Ray.

Also, bad Cooper threw his phone out of the window - so it can't be that.

Presumably whoever also got him a loaded gun.

I love the apparent paradox that Bad Coop can use impossible techno magic to move the tracers from the car to a nearby truck, but still has to get rid of the phone, in case it can be traced. Perhaps, the first one is to avoid being tracked by the police/FBI, but he gets rid of the phone so he cannot be traced by Agent Jeffries, who he is aware wanted Ray and Darya to kill him.

[baxter]

Woke up this morning really excited, Twin Peaks night is only a couple of days away. Remembered it wasn't on this week, got miserable! Remembered the episode descriptions for the next few episodes, got really excited again!!

[Dom834]

Oh my gosh, all you people who think Hawk at Glastonbury Grove is a flash-forward, you are WRONG.

I don't know why this theory is so popular. I have to have read 50 different people say this on this website. And everybody says the exact same thing: he didn't mention it to anybody! So it's a flash forward! What? I don't get it! That is a logic jump I don't see.
When the show is over, and this is not revealed to be a time-jump, all of you can let me know I was right and you were wrong.

Okay, but why was Hawk even out in Glastonbury Grove at all? He had no reason to be out there! And if he saw shimmering red curtains appear in the woods suddenly, why wouldn't he have mentioned that to someone? Tell me what happened in that episode to make Hawk go out to Glastonbury Grove in the middle of the night. It takes a much greater logical leap that he'd just happen to be out there right when the curtains appeared.

Hawk and Margaret (because of the Log, in her case) expected to see something happen in the woods that night.

IMO, this goes back to the fact that astronomy/-logy is a factor in the opening of the Lodge. In 1989, the Lodge opened for a set period of time, which could be read in the stars.

In 1989, episode 30 took place a few days after the Spring Equinox.

In 2014, Hawk's little excursion in Ghostwoods is taking place 2 days before the Autumn Equinox.

I don't think the information/lore Hawk was following, or the aim of his excursion in Ghostwoods, was directly related to his quest from the log about something missing. It's something else. I think we're about to find out soon.

I think we'll find out as well that Hawk has taken over from Harry as leader of the Bookhouse boys, and I think what he was doing in the wood was more Nez Percé/Bookhouse boy business than anything. Lodge related? Quite possibly. Cooper related? No that he knew of at the time. He might revise that opinion after what Laura wrote about the lodge and Good Cooper.

[BigEd]

Oh my gosh, all you people who think Hawk at Glastonbury Grove is a flash-forward, you are WRONG.

I don't know why this theory is so popular. I have to have read 50 different people say this on this website. And everybody says the exact same thing: he didn't mention it to anybody! So it's a flash forward! What? I don't get it! That is a logic jump I don't see. A billion things have happened in this show that no character refers to another character later. The show is too fast-moving for a lot of follow-up scenes to have many (or any) follow-up scenes to recap action. Maybe Hawk mentioned to it other characters off camera. That is incredibly tiny flimsy evidence for everyone to automatically assume a time-jump has been witnessed.

When the show is over, and this is not revealed to be a time-jump, all of you can let me know I was right and you were wrong.

If we tell you right now that "you were right and we were wrong," will you get off our lawn?? (jk)

[Ragnell]

Okay, but why was Hawk even out in Glastonbury Grove at all? He had no reason to be out there! And if he saw shimmering red curtains appear in the woods suddenly, why wouldn't he have mentioned that to someone? Tell me what happened in that episode to make Hawk go out to Glastonbury Grove in the middle of the night. It takes a much greater logical leap that he'd just happen to be out there right when the curtains appeared.

Because the Log Lady, a seer known to get information relating to the Evil In the Woods called and told him that something was missing involving Agent Dale Cooper, a psychic FBI Agent who disappeared after having been involved with some really weird stuff involving the Evil in the Woods and actually entering a portal to the Otherworld at Glastonbury Grove. So, like any good investigator he gathers all of the old material, then goes out to Glastonbury Grove because it is ground zero for all weirdness in Twin Peaks, and both the Log Lady and Dale Cooper have disappeared there and returned several hours later, changed. He'd be pretty stupid not to at least check this very important place after the Log Lady called about Cooper.

My interpretation of the scene was that Hawk entered the Lodge and was returned home without conscious memory of what he learned there. This has happened, Briggs wasn't really able to remember much of the White Lodge, Cooper has found aspects of his dreams/visions in the Red Room locked (Laura's message), and Leland entered there after the murder and completely forgot. If that's the case with Hawk, I expect his memory will return when its needed and we'll find out what he learned the night before Dale was supposed to return.

In episode 7, we see the establishing shot of the woods at night and then it suddenly cuts to the Double R. Why would there be that shot fo the woods, without any reason? For me, it connects with that scene with Hawk in episode 1. I guess that visit to Glastonbury Grove happens in episode 7, AFTER that Hawk have found the pages from Laura's diary about «the good Dale in the Black Lodge». Then only he has he idea of going to Glastonbury Grove.
Remember that in episode 1-2, we saw the New York scene twice, and the OAM said « is it future or is it past ?».

A shot of the woods before moving to the Double R could also mean that the seat-changing edit was a supernatural occurrence.

[Mr. Reindeer]

Listening to the audiobook for TSDoLP. On 7/23/84, Laura describes a nightmare about a bearded man with callused hands and thumbs black like coal. I doubt there was any type of pre-planning, but the description could be easily retconned as a Woodsman.

[Mr. Jackpots]

I'm not sure why, but for some reason I feel like maybe DoppleCooper wanted to get shot. He's basically an evil mastermind, and if he wanted to kill Ray I have no doubt that he could have done it. I dunno. I just don't think that an evil guy with knowledge of the supernatural and access to extremely advanced technology would let some two-bit petty criminal like Ray get a jump on him. I'm definitely not a criminal mastermind, and I knew Ray was up to something when he got out of the car.

I know there is not much evidence to support it but I think Ray may turn out to be more than just a petty criminal.

[claaa7]

cool to see the soundtrack listing, I knew it was Grady Tate who came back for some more Twin Peaks grooves. Heavy shit!

The Grady Tate track is from the original series, sadly. Appears in the Twin Peaks Archive as "Solo Percussion 2 (Grady's Waltz)".

damn.. thx for letting me know. i really had hoped Badalamenti would have gathered some of the old gang like Buster Williams and Grady Tate, but oh well.

[claaa7]

Oh my gosh, all you people who think Hawk at Glastonbury Grove is a flash-forward, you are WRONG.

I don't know why this theory is so popular. I have to have read 50 different people say this on this website. And everybody says the exact same thing: he didn't mention it to anybody! So it's a flash forward! What? I don't get it! That is a logic jump I don't see.
When the show is over, and this is not revealed to be a time-jump, all of you can let me know I was right and you were wrong.

Okay, but why was Hawk even out in Glastonbury Grove at all? He had no reason to be out there! And if he saw shimmering red curtains appear in the woods suddenly, why wouldn't he have mentioned that to someone? Tell me what happened in that episode to make Hawk go out to Glastonbury Grove in the middle of the night. It takes a much greater logical leap that he'd just happen to be out there right when the curtains appeared.

not only that but he specifically says that "something is supposed to happen here tonight" and "i'm almost there now" (Glastonberry Grove), plus the way the scene is delivered it promises a follow-up meeting with Margaret. The Return is breaking loads of television rules but that Hawk scene makes absolute zero narrative sense. and yet it's very intrigiuing...

EDIT: saw that there's been several good posts on this topic already. i'm still of the opinion that we will see some kind of follow-up on this strange and mysterious scene

[firefly2193]

Somehow I completely missed the release of the episode descriptions for parts 9-12, I think I had the internet shut down due to not being caught up with TPTR at that point! I think Part 12 is going be our next holy shit crazy part like Part 8 . They're very exciting titles.

I agree that *something* is up with those Hawk scenes in Parts 1&2, as they just don't make much sense on their own. The highly emphasised and repeated phrase "is it future, or is it past?" suggests that *something* is up with time in this show, and that its highly likely it won't be purely linear. I think that its likely that the opening scene with the Giant is in the future, as well as these Hawk scenes. There may or may not be many more - perhaps an entire story-line.

[boske]

We should remember that DoppleCoop was surprised and puzzled by Ray's detention at that very prison. Now that we know how and with what he (Ray) got out (gun, phone), it points to a presence of a shadowy organization or agency, that lists warden and some guards as its members. TSHOTP alludes to that too, in general. They can then certainly cook something up to explain the events of that night knowing the larger picture here. So it could be a case of DoppleCoop vs. the Spooks.

Up to this point we have not seen Phillip Jeffries nor Harry Truman, and we only heard from somebody who does not sound like Jeffries of FWWM (DoppleCoop agrees). I do not think L&F can keep it that way for much longer, I am hoping we get some major character development with at least one of these two. Keeping it up the way it has been up to this point would be, in my opinion, overdoing it. But still, it is an interesting parallel between these two characters.

[DeepBlueSeed]

Oh my gosh, all you people who think Hawk at Glastonbury Grove is a flash-forward, you are WRONG.

I don't know why this theory is so popular. I have to have read 50 different people say this on this website. And everybody says the exact same thing: he didn't mention it to anybody! So it's a flash forward! What? I don't get it! That is a logic jump I don't see.
When the show is over, and this is not revealed to be a time-jump, all of you can let me know I was right and you were wrong.

Okay, but why was Hawk even out in Glastonbury Grove at all? He had no reason to be out there! And if he saw shimmering red curtains appear in the woods suddenly, why wouldn't he have mentioned that to someone? Tell me what happened in that episode to make Hawk go out to Glastonbury Grove in the middle of the night. It takes a much greater logical leap that he'd just happen to be out there right when the curtains appeared.

not only that but he specifically says that "something is supposed to happen here tonight" and "i'm almost there now" (Glastonberry Grove), plus the way the scene is delivered it promises a follow-up meeting with Margaret. The Return is breaking loads of television rules but that Hawk scene makes absolute zero narrative sense. and yet it's very intrigiuing...

EDIT: saw that there's been several good posts on this topic already. i'm still of the opinion that we will see some kind of follow-up on this strange and mysterious scene

Just watching it now as I begin my recap of the last 8 episodes in time for the 9th. I don't have any trouble following the narrative in the order of which it's presented. He tells the Log Lady "once again your Log and I are on the same page", which makes sense given that he's trying to solve the Log's riddle about the missing Cooper and his heritage. It's also not absolutely clear that Hawk is able to see the curtain when it fades in and out, but serves as a handy reminder that this is where the entrance to the Black Lodge is, before we pass through to see events on the other side of the curtain. It might be said that the message the Log Lady gives to Hawk is as much a message to us, welcoming us back to the show after 25 years: "The stars turn and the time presents itself. Hawk, watch carefully." These scenes could all just be to establish old familiar territory and to warn us to watch carefully.

Other notes from my rewatch:

Bad Coop says, of the information the contact (Hasting's secretary) Ray has: "Kinda funny that she'll only give it to you..." I'm not sure that it would be all that funny if it was Betty Briggs, and Cooper was implicated with her husband's death/disappearance. But then again, maybe Bad Cooper only discovers who the contact is in this scene, and/or Ray is just playing his cards close to his chest. It's nice revisiting Ray here, remembering he's always been a bit cocky, clearly seeing Mr C as some sort of nut but happy to humour him as he realises he is dangerous. I'm not convinced he's a Lodge spirit, but he might be someone who's seen things.

Laura Palmer having light behind her face/mask maybe makes more sense after episode 8's glowing Laura globe.

[Mr. Reindeer]

Surprised no one has yet posited that the frog-bug is a form of the Jumping Man. The beak seems pretty deliberate, and those legs sure look made for jumping.

[claaa7]

"JP: We saw things that maybe men aren't supposed to see.

DM: Where was this?

JP: Out in the desert. The desert's a perfect medium for summoning... an empty canvas, a beaker into which, under certain circumstances and with fearless rigor, you can create an elixir that will call forth... call them what you will... messengers of the gods..."

(from Secret History of Twin Peaks, Dougie Milford interviews Jack Parson)

[boske]

I just found this tidbit in Mircea Eliade's book on Shamanism as I read it the first time, pages 64-65. Following a "Symbolic descent to the underworld", we shortly read the following: "All these rituals and ordeals are designed to make the candidate forget his past life. This is why, in many places, when the novice returns to the village he acts as if he had lost his memory and has to be taught all over again to walk, eat, dress. Usually the novices learn a new language and have a new name". Dougie?

And then: "Morphologically the future shaman's initiatory ordeals are of the same order as this great class of passage rites and ceremonies for entering secret societies. it is sometimes difficult to distinguish between tribal initiation rites and those of a secret society."

This book surely looks like one of the keys to the new season, if not the whole of TP.