Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Deep Thought
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:11 pm

mtwentz wrote:Not being a very well schooled in film lingo like many of the posters who have studied film on this board, I am struggling to find the right words to describe what I mean.

Yes, Twin Peaks, especially this new season, has a very complex plot that is very engaging. And the plot does drive the show, to a large extent. But there is something more to Twin Peaks. Instead of worrying just about the destination, Twin Peaks stops along the path to smell the flowers. That's the best I can describe it with my limited vocabulary in this area.


I think we may wait another 25 years for something of this nature on "TV." This show is not in a hurry; that's how I like my novels, that's how I like my movies, and now I realize that is how I like my TV shows.
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Rami Airola
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:17 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:Do you guys think that the conversation around the (Mitchum+Dougie) dinner table was lively?


Lively? Like, ROBYN Lively?

I solved the riddle. Lana is coming back!
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:08 pm

I've said this from the beginning of The Return, what we're seeing here is a long novel in filmic form. And in long novels, there is plot of course, but also plenty of time to slow the pacing down to focus on characters, even minor characters, or to focus on thematic, lyric, and tonal explorations. In The Return, we tend to slow down more for theme, tone, and atmosphere than we do with character. It's really an interesting narrative structure because while it is a traditional Aristotelian energeic (cause and effect) plot, it also incorporates what John Gardner called an "intellectual" plot, an exploration of ideas and feelings (abstractions) that adds an episodic, non-energeic element to the cause and effect aspects of plot.

We shouldn't be surprised by any of this because Lynch is well known for taking an all of the above approach to genre and style.

Where The Return falls into "trouble" is that many viewers really only are familiar with the traditional cause and effect plot, and any of these other elements are viewed as mistakes rather purposeful aesthetic choices.
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Cooperscoffeecup
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:25 pm

BigEd wrote:Well, one thing we know for certain, she wasn't giving him piano lessons because nobody with a piano rents a second story apartment. :lol:

(of course, her mother was in a wheel chair and they lived in a two story house) :shock:


I was reading an article somewhere today (which I now can't find) that mentioned a number of times that Gersten is
Spoiler:
his mother
?

A funny find for me on re-watch was that Norma drinks tea! :lol:

I can't believe how many things you find when watching this again, it is a completely different experience.
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby TwinsPeak » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:43 pm

Wonderful & Strange wrote:I've said this from the beginning of The Return, what we're seeing here is a long novel in filmic form. And in long novels, there is plot of course, but also plenty of time to slow the pacing down to focus on characters, even minor characters, or to focus on thematic, lyric, and tonal explorations. In The Return, we tend to slow down more for theme, tone, and atmosphere than we do with character. It's really an interesting narrative structure because while it is a traditional Aristotelian energeic (cause and effect) plot, it also incorporates what John Gardner called an "intellectual" plot, an exploration of ideas and feelings (abstractions) that adds an episodic, non-energeic element to the cause and effect aspects of plot.

We shouldn't be surprised by any of this because Lynch is well known for taking an all of the above approach to genre and style.

Where The Return falls into "trouble" is that many viewers really only are familiar with the traditional cause and effect plot, and any of these other elements are viewed as mistakes rather purposeful aesthetic choices.


I completely agree. For the 1st episode or 2 I was even guilty of not knowing what to think and putting my expectations of what i wanted on the story. But with every episode I accepted it for what it is more and more. I still struggle a bit with wanting it to be like the old show and movie. even tho the movie was way different from the show. And the Return is another different thing. I like that.

One thing I really like about it is, even on a site like this where we are all super fans and love every bit of the show. We are all still surprised with every new episode. Barely anyone can predict what is to be in the next episode. And each episode raises questions.

One of my biggest questions besides whats going to happen with Coop and evilCoop is: What's going on with Laura? Where is she? Why did Cole see her? I like that no one knows theses answers...its not a typical story or show. :)
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:01 pm

TwinsPeak wrote:One thing I really like about it is, even on a site like this where we are all super fans and love every bit of the show. We are all still surprised with every new episode. Barely anyone can predict what is to be in the next episode. And each episode raises questions.


Something I've realized reminiscing back on the old spoiler thread is that we, in theory, knew a LOT about this show before it aired. For all the (deserved) awe DKL has gotten for the levels of secrecy he preserved, we knew of many locations, what characters were present at those locations, key plot points (nuclear blast, kid getting hit by truck, etc.). And yet, without context, none of us could have even BEGUN to speculate how those tidbits would translate into what ended up being the final product.
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:06 pm

Cooperscoffeecup wrote: I was reading an article somewhere today (which I now can't find) that mentioned a number of times that Gersten is
Spoiler:
his mother
I thought the same thing after rewatching, because
Spoiler:
they both have red hair; they're not necessarily engaged in an embrace when shown on the stairwell; and, it's not established where Becky's phone call came from or how she jumped to the conclusion he was having an affair. I've wondered who placed the phone call anyway, but also:
Gersten's age in TPS2 could be anywhere from 14 to 16 if Donna was a senior in high school and the middle sister was in-between age 15-17. Bring Gersten to around age 17 some years later and she could've borne a son who today would be around 23.
What we *do* have evidence of is Becky is a firebrand, a loose cannon. The way Shelley told Bobby en route to TP in the van "She's got a gun." It was in her voice that this spelled trouble not because of a firearm in itself but because of the volatile nature of who had the gun. I'm betting that Becky has been capable of outbursts out of proportion to the nature of the situation before. If her husband and Gersten are aware of this then their reasons for wanting to hide from a Becky-freakout are justified on those terms not because they have something to hide (like an affair)~
Cooperscoffeecup wrote:A funny find for me on re-watch was that Norma drinks tea!
I had noticed the teapot while trying to figure out if it was reused footage every time they show Norma in the booth. It hadn't occurred to me about her being a tea drinker, just seeing the teapot. That is an interesting observation now that you mention it; given how much COFFEE is such an object of consumption on Twin Peaks.
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:18 pm

Hey, is anyone else a fan of classic movies? David Lynch certainly is. His own character, Gordon Cole, is named for Cecil B. DeMille's prop master in Sunset Boulevard, who keeps calling Gloria Swanson's Norma Desmond, she thinks because DeMille wants to make a movie out of the script for Salome she's gotten William Holden's Joe Gillis to write, with heavy plot influence from her. In fact, as DeMille, playing himself, eventually finds out, Cole was only interested in the vintage car she gets her ex-husband and now all-purpose servant Max Von Mayerling (Erich Von Stroheim) to chauffeur Joe and herself around town in.

Lynch has also gone out of his way to cast in Twin Peaks, both old and new, over the years, the likes of Piper Laurie, Richard Beymer, Russ Tamblyn, Richard Chamberlain, Don Murray, Peggy Lipton, Dan O'Herlihy and Jane Greer, maybe not household names now, but all stars of '50s and '60s films and TV shows.

AND tonight (though I'd noticed this before, I'd forgotten), I was watching Random Harvest on TCM, and the name of the motel Ronald Colman is staying at when he has his accident that jars his brain back into his old life while simultaneously robbing him of his memory of his new life with Greer Garson? The Great Northern!
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby TwinsPeak » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:23 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
TwinsPeak wrote:One thing I really like about it is, even on a site like this where we are all super fans and love every bit of the show. We are all still surprised with every new episode. Barely anyone can predict what is to be in the next episode. And each episode raises questions.


Something I've realized reminiscing back on the old spoiler thread is that we, in theory, knew a LOT about this show before it aired. For all the (deserved) awe DKL has gotten for the levels of secrecy he preserved, we knew of many locations, what characters were present at those locations, key plot points (nuclear blast, kid getting hit by truck, etc.). And yet, without context, none of us could have even BEGUN to speculate how those tidbits would translate into what ended up being the final product.


So true..... This site i think found most of the twin peaks spoilers that were to be had. I'm glad the spoilers didnt give too much away. Even now we have no clue what will be happening next episode.


unrelated topic....I think the Twin Peaks youtubers with there weekly episode updates use this site for their opinions ;)
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:50 pm

Framed_Angel wrote:
Cooperscoffeecup wrote: I was reading an article somewhere today (which I now can't find) that mentioned a number of times that Gersten is
Spoiler:
his mother
I thought the same thing after rewatching, because
Spoiler:
they both have red hair; they're not necessarily engaged in an embrace when shown on the stairwell; and, it's not established where Becky's phone call came from or how she jumped to the conclusion he was having an affair. I've wondered who placed the phone call anyway, but also:
Gersten's age in TPS2 could be anywhere from 14 to 16 if Donna was a senior in high school and the middle sister was in-between age 15-17. Bring Gersten to around age 17 some years later and she could've borne a son who today would be around 23.
What we *do* have evidence of is Becky is a firebrand, a loose cannon. The way Shelley told Bobby en route to TP in the van "She's got a gun." It was in her voice that this spelled trouble not because of a firearm in itself but because of the volatile nature of who had the gun. I'm betting that Becky has been capable of outbursts out of proportion to the nature of the situation before. If her husband and Gersten are aware of this then their reasons for wanting to hide from a Becky-freakout are justified on those terms not because they have something to hide (like an affair)~
Cooperscoffeecup wrote:A funny find for me on re-watch was that Norma drinks tea!
I had noticed the teapot while trying to figure out if it was reused footage every time they show Norma in the booth. It hadn't occurred to me about her being a tea drinker, just seeing the teapot. That is an interesting observation now that you mention it; given how much COFFEE is such an object of consumption on Twin Peaks.


Well this is Twin Peaks after all. I think seeing any male and female together would bring viewers to that conclusion, given the goings on of the first two seasons. ;)

Funny I didn't notice the teapot, only the floral cup and saucer. In the scene where Shelley phones her from the van, Norma has a teabag on the saucer. That is why it stuck with me, in a town where there is an obsession with coffee, the diner owner drinks tea.

Pretty sure that Norma's footage was all shot on location (Someone will know, but I don't think Peggy Lipton spent much time on location), but the scenes where she is at her paperwork do appear slightly different. The only exemption (i could be wrong) is the short cut to Norma when Lynch's son runs in looking for someone, I think I had seen that shot previously. In other scenes, it appears that the same items are on the desk, but papers and folders have been moved for different scenes. (I thought the same as you and then rewatched)
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Cooperscoffeecup » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:54 pm

TwinsPeak wrote:unrelated topic....I think the Twin Peaks youtubers with there weekly episode updates use this site for their opinions ;)


Also a group on facebook that does exactly the same thing. :)
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:00 pm

ravingnightmare wrote:All speculation and some worrying about how Lynch can tie everything or most things up begs the question, will there be a fourth season? I remember someone asked Lynch during the making of this season if there will be a continuation? Lynch said something along the line we will see. Would've loved finding the article or tweet where I read him saying that.


I've already posted this twice (sorry to repeat myself, folks), but here ya go:

David Lynch

Rolling Stone
May 17, 2017
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features ... ve-w482337

Do you see yourself making features for television now?
No. I don't know what will happen next, but this is an 18-hour film in my mind. And I love the idea of a continuing story. A feature is over in two-and-a-half, three hours. The stories that you tell on cable can go on and on and on. It's really beautiful.

Will there be more Twin Peaks after this?
I have no idea. It depends on how it goes over. You're going to have to wait and see.
___________

USA Today
May 17, 2017
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/ ... 101774630/

Could there be more episodes? "You never say never."

For now, he's keeping busy with another creative project: "I'm building a table."
___________

The Daily Beast
May 22, 2017
http://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the ... avid-lynch

Lynch will co-write and direct all 18 episodes of Twin Peaks’ new season but won’t disclose whether or not his contract extends beyond the one season.

“We’ll see how it goes in the world. That’s what we’ve got to see,” utters Lynch. “All I can say, Marlow, is that I love the world of Twin Peaks and the people in it, so it would not be a hardship. But like I said, we’ll have to see what the people think.”
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:11 pm

So, what DO people think? One person hinted at distressing ratings news in a post some pages back on here without any elaboration whatsoever, but I haven't seen any concrete info at all. Anyone know how Twin Peaks: the Return is doing?
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Snailhead » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:00 pm

I would love more Twin Peaks if it's a matter of striking while the iron's hot. As long as Lynch is directing, I'm satisfied. It'd be cool if they did something that was a co-write between, Lynch, Frost, and Engels.

Even if it was a tangential 3 hour film, but was still primarily set in Twin Peaks, I'd be game to have more produced. Heck I'd be cool with something entirely set in the new Fat Trout. I love that location so far in this new stuff.
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Re: Part 11 - There's fire where you are going (SPOILERS)

Postby Calderon » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:06 pm

sewhite2000 wrote:So, what DO people think? One person hinted at distressing ratings news in a post some pages back on here without any elaboration whatsoever, but I haven't seen any concrete info at all. Anyone know how Twin Peaks: the Return is doing?


The media and critics love it and are constantly raving and theorizing about it. The ratings as of now are pretty low, but I see it in the long term. I think when this season is over, it will get a decent amount of awards attention. The main draw for Showtime should not be the actual viewing number, but the prestige they are getting for it. So I think especially David Nevins is smart enough to see this huge prestige potential for Showtime.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for another season. The last weeks and months were just extraordinary for me. The world of Twin Peaks is so rich and complex that I can easily see more great seasons of it.

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