Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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nick1218
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:45 am

djsunyc wrote:
Ene wrote:I personally thought the French woman was hilarious, her acting was just perfectly over the top. Kind of surprised though that the womanizer theme for Cole is so central.


why is a woman like that in south dakota? lol



I dont know but when I get in my 70s and have a giant hearing aid at least I know I can go to South Dakota and pick someone up in a bar who looks like a model :)
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Electric Tree
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Electric Tree » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:48 am

Has anyone brought up Jerry running out of the woods with what looks like blood on his hands?
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trismegistus
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby trismegistus » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:51 am

As far as repeated bands go, I really feel like it's an indicator that we don't know in Twin Peaks what is future and what is past. Or it could just be that Lynch preferred scenes to be ordered differently in the edit than in the script. We won't know until it's over. But until then I'm highly suspicious that time is folding in on itself.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Ashok » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:54 am

Had a day to process Episode 12 and I really enjoyed it. It may not be one of my favorites of The Return but this episode seemed to be a classic case of juggling character development with answers which is always tricky for *any* mythology heavy drama. The Audrey scene kinda threw me for a loop but I feel like I can't really make any judgement call on her story until we see the larger picture. The ending sort of re-contextualized the "Where's Billy" scene and I'm really curious where Lynch is going with the story. Otherwise, Episode 12 really didn't feel any different to me than any other episode of The Return. I just felt like I was watching the same show I've been watching for the past 11 weeks and the universe feels very comfortable and it's a place I still recognize from the original series. Yeah, maybe there were fewer answers this week than some hoped for but I otherwise can't think of anything "wrong" with the episode.

Overall I think Part 11 was so ridiculously solid that Part 12 had a tough act to follow by The Return's own high standards. But I'm pretty sure that if a year from now you asked me to list off my least favorite episodes of Twin Peaks (or any TV show for that matter), Part 12 wouldn't even cross my mind.
Last edited by Ashok on Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Deep Thought
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:55 am

I kept waiting for Ben to say his bike was named "Rosebud." :D
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referendum
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:56 am

I dont know but when I get in my 70s and have a giant hearing aid at least I know I can go to South Dakota and pick someone up in a bar who looks like a model :)


haha.
well if you are FBI agent or a film director in an upmarket hotel with your own supply of fine french wines and an inexhaustible supply of charm and anecdote and cash, i expect you will find it easy enough, should you be of a mind to go there.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby 4815162342 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:03 am

Electric Tree wrote:Has anyone brought up Jerry running out of the woods with what looks like blood on his hands?


Looking at earlier scenes, eg, first one in pt 5, it's clearly his red finger-less gloves.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby djsunyc » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:10 am

chromereflectsimage wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Audrey:

The only way the scene can be redeemed is if Audrey is trapped in a Club Silencio type of situation. Many of the elements are there, so much so that this is what I am leaning towards. (Who says "milquetoast"? Lol) Similar vibe to the Mr K. scenes from IE, even down to the phone call. No mention of horses and wells in the call though, so my guess is that Audrey is no where near ready to wake up from her coma, which is why Frank Truman went to grandpa to break the news about Audrey's child.


Someone on another board had a theory that it's actually Audrey in a mental facility and the 'husband' she is talking to is actually her psychiatrist.


that would actually be a very good "twist".
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:12 am

referendum wrote:
I dont know but when I get in my 70s and have a giant hearing aid at least I know I can go to South Dakota and pick someone up in a bar who looks like a model :)


haha.
well if you are FBI agent or a film director in an upmarket hotel with your own supply of fine french wines and an inexhaustible supply of charm and anecdote and cash, i expect you will find it easy enough, should you be of a mind to go there.


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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:21 am

Deep Thought wrote:Audrey:

The only way the scene can be redeemed is if Audrey is trapped in a Club Silencio type of situation. Many of the elements are there, so much so that this is what I am leaning towards. (Who says "milquetoast"? Lol)


That line and a few others in that scene I can't think of now definitely felt overwritten/unnatural. On the old series, a script-to-screen comparison for DKL-directed episodes reveals that he had a pretty great ear for sanding down those writerly excesses during filming; I'm kind of surprised he didn't alter the "milquetoast" line here. I guess since DKL is going to town with all his own stylistic excesses on the new show, he decided to let Mark have the same indulgence.

Btw, the Audrey scene (perhaps ironically) felt like the most soapy thing we've gotten in the new show to date.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:25 am

Dougie jones getting hit with a baseball now that's entertainment !
I'm to the point where I just want to scream every Sunday night after the episode airs.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Special Agent Dale Cooper the main character here ?
Art is one thing but teasing people week after week is another.
Lets have Coop back already geez !
I mean what the hell is the deal ?
I'm trying so hard to stay with it especially since I've waited 26 years for this but, I'm getting let down over and over again and it's getting ridiculous.
Most parts of this series could have been cut out and the show would have been much more suspenseful and enjoyable.
In the words of Diane "Fuck you Dougie" !
When Jupiter and Saturn meet , oh what a crop of mummy wheat.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:31 am

N. Needleman wrote:I love the mythology elements, I always have. And I am quite immersed in the plot. But for L/F to focus on that at the expense of the emotion and the tone, or Lynch's private obsessions and strange visions, would make this just another genre TV show. It's never been that and it never, ever will be. If someone wants that they have lots of other things they can watch. Things that were inspired by Twin Peaks.




Isn't the problem that Lynch ISN'T focusing enough on tone and emotion, and the show is too bogged down in generic plot? Part 8 is overwhelmingly people's favourite, an episode almost entirely devoid of typical plot advancement and entirely devoted to the surrealist, impressionistic elements of Twin Peaks. For me, the show is brilliant when engaging in these, and even in the little 'vignettes' of Twin Peaks - the hit n run scene, the sick kid in the car, etc - and severely struggles when bogged down in plot details that, for me at least, aren't that interesting - insurance fraud - or scripting where characters just sit in a room (often in silence) and discuss events the audience has already seen in a heavy handed, exposition-y way. Usually this only occurs in a couple of scenes per Part and is manageable because of the other great things going on.

Part 12 was a big struggle for me because those type of scenes were the vast majority of the episode, and only really the Sarah Palmer scenes had that brilliant tone and emotion and feeling that only Lynch and Twin Peaks can create. I often even enjoy the seemingly meaningless Roadhouse scenes such as the one at the end of Part 12, simply because they're filmed, soundtracked and edited in a way that evokes the magical sense that's somethings going on - even if that may not be the case.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:48 am

One of the things I'm still thinking about is how the line 'Harry, your brother, ...' was written by two accomplished and experienced writers, and never removed in the time between scripting, re-drafts, and filming. Pretty sure Frank knows Harry is his brother, Ben.

If Audrey's scene get re-contextualised as her in a coma, or something like that, that could redeem the scene a lot.

Also how on earth was it plotted that there would be this whole plot line about Miriam's letter to the police station getting intercepted, only for the police to magically figure it all out off screen? If someone can come up with a rationale for writing that plot that way, I'd love to hear it.

I think a lot of the frustration from people here is due to how we know TPTR was designed - there may have been filler in the original Twin Peaks, but that was a show filmed episode by episode, with different writers almost every episode, the Lynch and Frost often disappearing from the show completely for sustained periods. This was show carefully scripted way in advance, written as a movie by just two people, and directed by one person. My only thought is that stuff like this is the result of the extension from 9 parts to 18, or some something as a result of the editing.
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Jacob
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Jacob » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:49 am

I'm a bit surprised by how the part is being received. Obviously it was one of the low point of the season... and yet I can't talk about it, like many of you here, like it was just "another part". It was baffling to me, and the first time this season I really didn't understand what Lynch was trying to accomplish. At the end of it, I was exhausted, laughing almost at dispair.

Obviously, a lot in this part was about "trolling". It's not just "shaddy-dog storytelling" like Mr. Reindeer said : it's clear here Lynch is making fun of the viewers. And I agree with Jerry Horne : it's not only the case in Audrey sequence, it's everywhere. The endless scene of Gordon with the french woman, the Jacoby/Nadine sequence (with, like cgs027 said, shots already used before), the fucking scene between Ben and Truman where they are on repeat about Harry being happy to have the key as a memento... It's unreal. But it's not because there's a meta aspect to it that's "comedy gold". To me, saying it's good just because Lynch is consciously messing with expectations are a bunch of excuses. It's a conceptual argument. The real question here is "what Lynch wants to say while doing that ? And why, especially, did he felt that he had to take this approch so fucking long ?". Personally, I just don't understand the intent, the poesy, the deepness of it. It just felt repetitive, boring, cruel and, honestly... quite stupid. But I'm really curious to read someone opinion about that... Just why ? And I don't mean an explanation about the viewers themselves (be patient, the journey is better than the destination, blablabla). Is there an allegory to all this cruelty ? I'm really wondering.

And when I'm saying cruelty, I really mean cruelty. The scene with Audrey is not only a joke on the viewer : it's a joke on Fenn herself. And to me it felt much more demeaning than all of the "violence against women scenes" of the previous parts. Again : why ? Same thing with the Dougie sequence, just here to show us that, after all the beauty and hope of Part 11's end, Cooper is in fact still unable to catch a ball and is like a 2 years old. Last week, someone said about the dinner sequence with the Mitchum brothers that it was a farewell to Dougie ("he's a special person, don't forget that", etc.). I loved this idea but now, in Part 12, it feels more like Lynch is saying to us "See, Dougie is a really special person, it's true ! And it's real shit when he's not here and when we are stuck with old characters like Audrey which I HATE". There was no love in this episode, whereas Part 11 was full of it. Just hate. Disdain and mockery. So again : Why ?
The strangest thing is that the ending at the Roadhouse stop being just a joke but remains with the same spirit. And the same way we, as a viewers, are stunned and exhausted, the Chromatics themselves can't even sing ! So I just don't like where this episode seems to be coming from... it's like it has been directed by Jacoby himself. Full of anger about his own inhability. But then again, I'd really like to read a deep analysis of Lynch intent here.

Anyway, beyond that, I don't agree with thoses who liked the more "serious" first half of the Part. The first sequence is pretty bad, because here Tammy is supposed to be a proxy for the viewers, or at least the new viewers (being accepted by the old ones), but Tammy is such a poor character that it's an inevitable failure. Her acting, her uncountable sighings are unbearable. It's like we have here almost the worst of Lynch and Frost at the same time : poor narrative, very expository, bad timing, a tiring obsession for Chrystal Bell...
The scene between Gordon, Albert and the french woman is very similar. It's not only ironic and "trolling" : it's also becoming narative with Albert arrival. But for what ? A boring repetition of Diane's messages we've already seen ! And what Gordon and Albert have to say about that ? Nothing. They don't know. "We'll figure it out". :(
But it's true the Sarah scenes are great. Love Grace Zabriskie anyway !

The good thing of all of it is that I'm more lost and confused this season than ever. Last week, I almost believed the one who were saying the show was going to go faster and faster from now on. Well well well !

Oh, and to Jonah :
Jonah wrote:When I first saw the vacuum cleaner, I thought we were in for another sweeping scene. Anyone else?

Me too! :wink: I was like "another vacuum cleaner scene, that's just what we're missing right now !" while I was crying.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:52 am

Good comments Jacob.

Posted this in another thread, but think a few of these points are worth repeating here:

I didn't hate this most recent episode. I was fully on board with the closing to Episode 11, which I thought was great. Episode 12 was half great, half weak.

But overall, these are my thoughts on the series to date....

There's definitely flashes of greatness in this revival, but Season 2 is looking better with every episode.

I think the revival would have worked a lot better if it had been 9 episodes as originally planned rather than a move to 18 episodes.

I think when we all heard Lynch was directing it all it sounded too good to be true. We expected a full season filled with episodes like Episode 14 and Episode 29. But instead we're mostly getting the weaker parts of "Mulholland Drive", in my opinion.

Lynch is a genius, but he's not infallible. And I think sometimes too much Lynch can be too much.

That said, I'm trying to make the best of it. There's still a few scenes here and there that I think are great. But I think the structure of this thing and a lot of the plots and the in-your-face constant trolling/commentary on impatience is becoming very taxing.

The brilliance of the Sarah Palmer/Grace Zabriskie scenes in the most recent episode just underline to me again that it was a mistake to 1) Not primarily set the show in Twin Peaks and 2) Not to focus primarily on some of the original cast. It didn't have to be a cozy, cherry pie nostalgia trip, but a stronger focus on these core elements and the passage of time would have made a stronger show imo.

But overall I think the 400-page script was designed to be 9 episodes and stretching it to 18 has really weakened the show. I'm not fully against it, there's still much to like, but it's like slogging through a very weak series to get little nuggets of promise and brilliance here and there. If this doesn't massively pick up in the last few episodes, I think this may tarnish the legacy of the show.
Last edited by Jonah on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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