Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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bignadine
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby bignadine » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:36 am

First time posting. (English not my first language)

I just keep thinking about what's actually the plot in TPTR. Cooper coming back? Destroying Bob? And the rest of the cast? Showing how the place affects the people of Twin Peaks? We talk about what has happened to Audrey, Norma, Ed but only that at the moment. Curiosity not action for them.
I loved Part 1 and Part 2, there were things happening, part 11 was... hope but it goes down. As said before, we will have an opinion when all is done, I still have faith but :/
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Dreamy Audrey
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:40 am

The episode started good, but the second half was a big let-down.

I really liked the scenes with Sarah in the store and Hawk going to Sarah's house, Truman and Ben talking about Richard and Cooper, and Albert (or was it Gordon?) mentioning Chester Desmond.

The Jacoby scene with the reused footage was really tiring. Even if he is going to play an important part later by getting the woodsmen's attention with his broadcasts and then defeating them somehow with his gold shovels it would be just a dumb plot that the series could have done without.

I think that the Roadhouse scene is probably connected to the Sparkle/drug/119/rash plot, however, with so few episodes left and DougieCoop still not awake, I don't really care about the drug plot and want the rest of the series to focus on Cooper and the Doppelganger and the characters we already know. We haven't seen Mr. C for a couple of episodes, I want to see what he's up to.

The scene with Audrey was such a disappointment. After they waited so long to show us her fate I expected some important/shocking reason for her absence. If she's been all right all this time why didn't they show her earlier? And why show her now when she doesn't even have any connection to the plot at the moment? Her scene kind of took me out of the episode, it took so long and wasn't going anywhere. If she had gone to the Roadhouse, we'd at least seen if she is still in Twin Peaks or was referring to a different Roadhouse, but no... Audrey's my favourite character and I was waiting for her to appear, but the scene was really excruciating and I was waiting for it to end. I think the episode would have done without her. Maybe the scene will become important later on, but there were so many new names mentioned in that scene. Did we need that now?

After that scene I don't think Audrey is Richard's mother, though. If she was, wouldn't Sheriff Truman have talked to her rather than Ben concerning Richard? Unless she run off and no one in Twin Peaks knows where she is. How the hell did Audrey end up married to that guy? I don't think it's about money. She is from a rich family and even if she ran off from her family, she seemed like the kind of character who would be able to find a way to make money without having to marry a rich guy, so why would she need him? I'm wondering what both of them get out of this marriage because he didn't seem to mind that she was talking about her lover.

By the way, I was a bit annoyed by Audrey's constant nagging in that scene. I felt like we had seen that character before, she seems like a repeat of Doris, Sylvia and Janey-E who don't do anything except complain to their husbands. Is that the only kind of wife that exists in the Twin Peaks universe nowadays :roll:

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Audrey:

The only way the scene can be redeemed is if Audrey is trapped in a Club Silencio type of situation. Many of the elements are there, so much so that this is what I am leaning towards. (Who says "milquetoast"? Lol)


That line and a few others in that scene I can't think of now definitely felt overwritten/unnatural. On the old series, a script-to-screen comparison for DKL-directed episodes reveals that he had a pretty great ear for sanding down those writerly excesses during filming; I'm kind of surprised he didn't alter the "milquetoast" line here. I guess since DKL is going to town with all his own stylistic excesses on the new show, he decided to let Mark have the same indulgence.

Btw, the Audrey scene (perhaps ironically) felt like the most soapy thing we've gotten in the new show to date.

The scene felt really unnatural and I kept thinking that maybe at the end of the scene it would be revealed that Audrey is an actress and playing a character who is coincidentally also called Audrey :D I prefer the idea that Audrey is still in a coma or in a mental institution, though. But if that's the case I would have preferred to have the resolution in this episode and not a couple of episodes later.


cgs027 wrote:So, what was the deal in the previous episode of Albert referring to the coordinates appearing to point "to a small town south of" (and then getting cut off), now that we've confirmed via Diane that they pointed directly to Twin Peaks? I would think Albert would have a holy sh*t moment there, not just gloss over it. And it doesn't make sense to say he didn't relay that info due to Diane being there, since he happily let her crib the coordinates off of the pic.

I though the coordinates in the picture might be fake because they let see Diane them. But I don't know why they would chose Twin Peaks of all places to trick her.


Framed_Angel wrote:
Jonah wrote:And we got some resolution to Miriam.
One of the few intriguing moments for me, was when Ben instructed Beverly to arrange to pay for hospital treatment of "Miriam... I forget her last name."
Are we going to go down this road again, wondering whether the correct Miriam will be identified in a way that aids whichever arc of any of these stories is heading? LOL there will turn out to be another Miriam also at the hospital -- wackiness ensues!

The fact that Ben forgot Miriam's last name and the different last name on the letter makes me worried that Ben might pay the treatment of the wrong Miriam. But I don't know what the point of that story would be, as the Sheriff already knows the truth, so it doesn't really matter storywise what happens to Miriam.


firefly2193 wrote:Also how on earth was it plotted that there would be this whole plot line about Miriam's letter to the police station getting intercepted, only for the police to magically figure it all out off screen? If someone can come up with a rationale for writing that plot that way, I'd love to hear it.

Let's hope Cooper doesn't wake up off-screen...
Last edited by Dreamy Audrey on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
thunderclap82
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby thunderclap82 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:41 am

I've read through most of the posts here and here are my thoughts:

People who hate this might still be in the mindset of modern television: episodes that, while not self-contained, still have an overall arc. The Return hasn't followed this structure at all. Also, it seems a lot of people had predictions or overheard predictions the agreed with and probably felt were true and it turned out they weren't. My only advice is to stop reading theories and speculations. Go in blind so you don't have any preconceived ideas of what you think the episode should be and you'll be less disappointed. Was it a great episode? No, but it is still better than most shows on television.

The scenes that people seem most upset about:

- Cole/Albert/Prostitute(?) - We did get a little information from the scene so it wasn't pointless. Could it have been done faster? Certainly, but Lynch has never been one to deliver scenes quickly.

- Dr. Amp - Still not sure it was 100% recycled, but it definitely felt like it. I do think it was included more to remind the audience of the Alex Jones character Jacoby now is/plays. Was it necessary? Probably not, but for those who'd forgotten about Dr. Amp it served as a reminder.

- Audrey - Most people, it seems, convinced themselves she is the mother of Richard, is the anonymous billionaire, and was raped by Mr. C while unconscious at the hospital. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN YET. We learned a few story hints in the very Lynchian paced scene. Remember there is (probably) more to come with Audrey, so don't judge this scene before seen what it leads to.

- The Roadhouse - The biggest thing revealed here is that the guy was run off the road. We don't know who, but a good guess is that this is Mr. C returning to Twin Peaks. Was it absolutely necessary? No but, again, Lynch loves to dangle little bits of story elements for us. It definitely got people talking and speculating, now didn't it?

I do wonder if the baseball hitting Dougie in the head is all that takes to wake Cooper up? That would be very Lynchian thing, IMO.
cgs027
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:42 am

douglasb wrote:If this is Audrey's coma dream, she's done amazingly well to imagine what she looks like 25 years after her accident.


Hey, maybe he'll pull a reverse MD in the last few episodes and have it be revealed that the first 2/3rds of the series was Audrey's coma dream, while in reality Good Coop killed Bad Coop years ago and has been patiently sitting by her hospital bed waiting for her to wake up. Cue credits!

(Obviously kidding).
LateReg
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:44 am

mtwentz wrote:The original Twin Peaks was basically accused of the same thing, 'It has no plot', 'the plot doesn't move!', the 'plot moves at a snail's pace'. Remember, if Lynch and Frost had had their way, Laura Palmer's case never would have been solved. The pacing was thus picked up in order to wrap up the murder mystery, but before then, the pacing was agonizingly slow for its time.

I am 100% confident the show is right-paced according to Lynch's artistic vision, with the caveat that there may be some filler that was needed to get to a full 18 hours. But that filler would amount to only a handful of scenes.

But let's say for the sake of argument there is a little filler. So what? If you're enjoying 90% of a piece of art, why focus on the 10% you don't like. I mean, if I go on a vacation, there's usually a few moments I like less than the other moments. But I don't let those moments ruin my entire vacation.


Hey mtwentz, enjoying your comments, as always. Quick question for you and everyone, because this always bugs the hell out of me. Why do people sometimes talk about the 18 hours like it was mandated by Showtime, or like Lynch has to fill it? Isn't it most likely what Lynch wanted? He didn't need to include anything he considers filler because he could have every episode be between 45 and 52 minutes rather than between 53 and 58. He has that freedom given that the program is airing on Showtime with no set lengths per Part. So I'm just saying he didn't NEED to put any filler in...he could have taken whatever out and still put out 18 Parts at slightly shorter avg. lengths. I think everything we're seeing here is, as you said, at the pace that fits his artistic vision, and that so many assume that he's padding out the length to fit 18 hours is strange.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby crash_and_burn » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:49 am

garethw wrote:There are a heck of a lot of references to smoking in this show.

Gotta light?

The spelling of that's kind of odd. Out of context, wouldn't one would naturally read that as a contraction of "got to light"?


It's standard spelling for the short-hand vernacular usage of "Have you got a light?"
cgs027
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby cgs027 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 am

firefly2193 wrote:Also how on earth was it plotted that there would be this whole plot line about Miriam's letter to the police station getting intercepted, only for the police to magically figure it all out off screen? If someone can come up with a rationale for writing that plot that way, I'd love to hear it.


The ONLY thing I can think of is that Chad may get his comeuppance via Richard if the latter finds out he is being tracked down (and thus assumes Chad dropped the ball with the letter snatching). Of course, if he hears that Miriam survived, this is a total moot point.

Then again, seems that most of the sheriff's dept is going to be very busy with another adventure in the next day or two, so I don't know who would be tracking him down in the first place!

But agreed, very strange and seemingly unnecessary (unless they are just throwing red herrings out there to have you follow one thread only to have it dead end, which is possible).
Last edited by cgs027 on Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:54 am

mtsi wrote:When you get older and time counts more, you stop trying to convince yourself it's worth sticking out and you go do something better with your time. That's why.


Yeah, I suppose so. There are no shows in recent time I have devoted this much time to. Re-watching episodes 1-4 close to a dozen times in order to hook onto it, spending hours and hours in here trying to get the subtext of what we're watching, reading reviews, listening to podcasts, etc. I hope it pays off in the end, but if it doesn't - I'll convince myself it's no big deal. It's just a TV show.
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:54 am

Ross wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:editied.

I came here to hear Audrey's reaction. Personally, I don't know what to think about the Audrey scene... I can see parallels to Catherine, which is interesting. But man, the lives of our characters seem increasingly depressing. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!


Same!
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nick1218
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby nick1218 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:58 am

DamnFineCreamedCorn wrote:This was the first time in The Return that I've found it a chore to finish a part. It just didn't gel for me. It felt like mostly leftovers, filler and repurposed footage.

I did love Diane entering through the red curtains, Carl's display of kindness and his advice against selling blood, Cole's new friend and everything with Sarah Palmer.

So on to Part 13.


agree the red curtains were very cool, eerie. I also struggled, I found myself literally looking at my walls at one point and caught msyelf thinking how odd, I am so bored with the screen that my mind and eyes are wandering like Candy
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Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:03 am

Is it me or in the grocery scene, when Sarah says "Where you here when they first came?" her voice is delayed and distorted?



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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 am

Jacob wrote:And when I'm saying cruelty, I really mean cruelty. The scene with Audrey is not only a joke on the viewer : it's a joke on Fenn herself. And to me it felt much more demeaning than all of the "violence against women scenes" of the previous parts. Again : why ? Same thing with the Dougie sequence, just here to show us that, after all the beauty and hope of Part 11's end, Cooper is in fact still unable to catch a ball and is like a 2 years old. Last week, someone said about the dinner sequence with the Mitchum brothers that it was a farewell to Dougie ("he's a special person, don't forget that", etc.). I loved this idea but now, in Part 12, it feels more like Lynch is saying to us "See, Dougie is a really special person, it's true ! And it's real shit when he's not here and when we are stuck with old characters like Audrey which I HATE". There was no love in this episode, whereas Part 11 was full of it. Just hate. Disdain and mockery.
But why would Lynch ruin the character of Audrey (and part of the plot) as a joke on Fenn? Most people loved Audrey and would have loved to spend more time with her character. If he wanted a joke on Fenn, he could have written her out of the show, he could have said that Audrey died and let the character rest in peace instead of mocking Audrey.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:09 am

I digested this, and your posts, at bit. I'm OK with TPTR, but I'm going to mostly put this episode out of my mind.

I love DKL, but he pissed me off during his "Weather Report" days with just some whacky crap he was spouting. Let's just say the guy does what he wants. Good for him. We got a shovel of shit from him yesterday, but it will ultimately be OK.

I've been surprised by DKL's acting. Actually pretty good. I am getting a bit tired of his self deprecation. The French lady (besides being a nugget for his strong French audience) scene seemed to be just too much of an in-joke on DKL himself, his marriages, his love of younger women. Whatever...

Finally, Audrey. Sherilynn Fenn. I know what bothers me about this scene: "Boxing Helena" Her character acts a lot like this in B.H., and I don't think she comes across well as an Angry Bitch. I don't blame her for being pissed, and I'd probably tell DKL to f-off too. But, apparently everyone kissed and made up, so I'm still holding out hope for happy times ahead.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:10 am

thunderclap82 wrote:Was it a great episode? No, but it is still better than most shows on television.


So?
We compare Twin Peaks to Twin Peaks. Not to other shows on television.
And even if this show is better than most shows on television, there definitely were separate scenes that weren't even nearly better than most shows on television. The Audrey scene was just bad. It was a bad scene in a television series. It was something I would probably skip in future viewings and I won't usually skip scenes in any series.

- Cole/Albert/Prostitute(?) - We did get a little information from the scene so it wasn't pointless. Could it have been done faster? Certainly, but Lynch has never been one to deliver scenes quickly.


While I personally liked that scene I think it's still fair to criticize the scene if it didn't give enough interesting information to someone. Lynch is able to make quick scenes. And he is able to make slow scenes that are interesting. Sometimes he fails to make an interesting slow scene and it just ends up being just as boring as some other directors could do. There's no need to put any "that's Lynchian" twist on that.

- Dr. Amp - Still not sure it was 100% recycled, but it definitely felt like it. I do think it was included more to remind the audience of the Alex Jones character Jacoby now is/plays. Was it necessary? Probably not, but for those who'd forgotten about Dr. Amp it served as a reminder.


Why we need to be reminded of that?
There are plenty of other things people surely have already forgotten. Why not show the Eyeless Woman to remind us of her instead of showing almost exact same scenes of Jacoby and Nadine? If there isn't any big twist to the Jacoby thing then these scenes have just been bad television.

- Audrey - Most people, it seems, convinced themselves she is the mother of Richard, is the anonymous billionaire, and was raped by Mr. C while unconscious at the hospital. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN YET. We learned a few story hints in the very Lynchian paced scene. Remember there is (probably) more to come with Audrey, so don't judge this scene before seen what it leads to.


- The Roadhouse - The biggest thing revealed here is that the guy was run off the road. We don't know who, but a good guess is that this is Mr. C returning to Twin Peaks. Was it absolutely necessary? No but, again, Lynch loves to dangle little bits of story elements for us. It definitely got people talking and speculating, now didn't it?


People speculate all and any scenes in these threads. It doesn't mean the scenes were good. Some of the speculation are sometimes people hoping a bad scene at least going forward to meet a good scene. Even if a bad scene leads into a good scene it doesn't mean the bad scene was good. It could've been good scene leading into a good scene.

That scene with Audrey and the end scene were bad scenes even if some later scene related to them would be good.
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Cappy
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:18 am

So if Albert and Gordon are trying to scam Diane into telling Bad Coop to go back to Twin Peaks, is the end game just to push him back into the Black Lodge?

But... if Ray had the 'real' coordinates, and he gives them to Phillip Jeffries, where does that send him?

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