Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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alreadygoneplaces
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:05 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
alreadygoneplaces wrote:Sherilyn wasn’t bad, but it felt like there was zero rapport between her and the guy who played Charlie. It felt like two actors who’d just met for the first time minutes earlier, and were running through their lines for the first time. Which may well have been the case. The dialogue seemed off- seeming focussed on obfuscation, while still managing to make the few moments of real exposition seem awkwardly forced.


In MD compare Betty arriving at the airport to Betty at her audition. Lynch can coax actors in drastically different directions according to what he is trying to evoke, and most of the time he is in touch with a deep understanding of human nature, as Mr. C would say. I have no doubt that the criticisms above you have about this scene are what Lynch was trying to accomplish. We've seen he is a master of "making it real" when he wants to. Whether you enjoyed the scene is a different matter of course.

As Robert Forster said on the red carpet about his role in MD, he didn’t know why Lynch kept telling him to talk more slowly in his scene, until years later when he realized his character was part of a dream.

Audrey is in a purgatory of sorts, so I would expect the dialog and pacing to be a little off. At least they were speaking forward!


Yeah, that worked well in Mulholland Drive, and the meaning of those scenes certainly took a new level on repeat viewing after taking in the whole picture. But they still worked for me the first time around enough to captivate me- it felt like a interesting stylisation, it made me wonder "hmm... what's not right about this...?". With this one, I didn't feel that- it just felt like a bona fide shaky scene. If it's revealed or later suggested that Audrey's scene didn't exactly take place in the real world, I'll be keen to revisit this, but I'm personally highly doubtful this will turn out to be the case. It wouldn't totally surprise me if this lack of rapport in the scene was intentional*, but I don't see how it's possible to be positive that it was- it's inevitable that some scenes in such a mammoth project filmed on such a short timeframe might miss the mark, and my suspicion is that this was one of them.

*And unless future events drastically force a reappraisal of the scene (which I also wouldn't rule out), knowing that it was intentional wouldn't improve my perception of it- perhaps, it might even have the opposite effect...

referendum wrote:@ alreadygoneplaces

- Coordinates +2? What? Also, in the flashback, while Diane is memorising the numbers from the photo, she seems to mouth the word “co…ord..in..ates”. Huh?


^^^ a mnemonic.


I did think about this, but I'd be damned if I can figure out how it works. Any takers on that?
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counterpaul
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby counterpaul » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:10 pm

Jonah wrote:Some good points counterpaul. But they did write a script of 400 pages which - by conventional stand-points - would be about 8 or 9 episodes, hence the original 9 episode order. Then I think improvisation took place on set - and some scenes ran longer. And Lynch wanted to try other things, such as Episode 8 for example. If that was scripted, I imagine it was only about 10 minutes on paper until it was stretched - visually - to episode length. Then we have numerous long, slow scenes and repeated footage (Jacoby), etc. I don't think Lynch is doing any of this to fill an episode order. But I think what people are saying is, that perhaps a tighter, more edited down 9-episode order that stuck to the script more would have been stronger. I feel this myself, though maybe 12 episodes would have been okay too which would have given some more wriggle room. Extending to 18 I feel has hurt the show because in my opinion it's led to a lot of scenes that feel really drawn out and some that either could have been deleted scenes or cut way down (an example being the most recent Audrey scene, which ran over 10 and a half continuous minutes in a scene that would have felt long at 3-4 minutes!). I think people are just pointing things like that out, not implying Lynch is trying to fill up 18 episodes, but rather saying it seems like he isn't cutting anything. A good writer/director always knows when to cut the fat, in my opinion. Either way, as you say, it is a matter of taste. A part of me does like that we get to see all of this, warts and all, but another part just feels a shorter, tighter cut with less episodes would have produced a stronger, more compelling series.


That's all 100% fair! It's definitely a matter of taste and conventional wisdom favors your take on this for sure. I'm an editor myself, and I know exactly how these scenes could be tightened up and what could be cut out and the reasons why those are the correct decisions from a conventional point of view. I'm just so happy that Lynch isn't approaching it that way!

I'm, personally, loving the pacing and structure of this thing. It feels so good to just luxuriate in it. Somewhat perversely, it's other shows/films that are trying my patience lately. I keep feeling like things move on to other business just as a scene is getting going. Like I said in another post, Lynch has thoroughly gotten into my head.

By the way, I would not be at all surprised if we end up with a lengthy, "More Missing Pieces" style deleted scenes collection on the blu ray of this thing. We all know Lynch's approach is to overshoot and that he is not at all hesitant to cut scenes. And, sure, with stuff like Blue Velvet and FWWM he was working with contractually mandated running times, but INLAND EMPIRE had 75 minutes of brilliant deleted material and he easily could have made that thing four hours long if he had wanted to.

Also, this is splitting hairs but KM recently said that the script he read was about 500 pages.
Rami Airola
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:11 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
freeek wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Indeed, these dots are rather incoherent.

OK let's keep it simple. Why do you think you were shown three minutes of Ben Horne ad libbing on that bike he loved so much ?


Writing "even the most charming place from the past, the town of Twin Peaks, is poisoned by this overwhelming darkness" makes me wonder if we even watched the same seasons 1 & 2.

Laura Palmer was bad enough, but her daddy, Andrew and Josie Packard, Thomas Eckhardt, Jean Renault and co., Leo Johnson, Cliff Howard, Blackie, Emory Battis, Hank Jennings, Maddy Ferguson, Harold Smith, Malcolm Sloan, Teresa Banks, Dell Mibbler, Rusty Tomasky, Jonathan Kumagai, and Waldo, among other, would also take issue with you calling TP a "most charming place.” That's an awful lot of killing for a small, charming town. Also, the rapey, druggy, torture bits were a little unseemly too.


Yeah Twin Peaks was never supposed to be that charming.
Even the tagline for the movie was "In a town like Twin Peaks no one is innocent."
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The Gazebo
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:14 pm

AgentEcho wrote:So I can imagine him setting up some elaborate good natured ribbing with certain scenes. But there's more to the series than that, and we're getting more. People just forget about all the great stuff when they get upset over a scene or two.


Yeah, I can see that. The only times I get slightly annoyed is when you can smell the stitch up right away. Twice so far; the French Lady yesterday, and the lady with the key in ep 1. Both times I thought "Aaaw, that's cute, David. Let me go put the kettle on while you spend the next few minutes trying to piss people off". But they don't really cause that much harm in the long run, as long as they're not too frequent.
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Jonah
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:15 pm

counterpaul wrote:
Jonah wrote:Some good points counterpaul. But they did write a script of 400 pages which - by conventional stand-points - would be about 8 or 9 episodes, hence the original 9 episode order. Then I think improvisation took place on set - and some scenes ran longer. And Lynch wanted to try other things, such as Episode 8 for example. If that was scripted, I imagine it was only about 10 minutes on paper until it was stretched - visually - to episode length. Then we have numerous long, slow scenes and repeated footage (Jacoby), etc. I don't think Lynch is doing any of this to fill an episode order. But I think what people are saying is, that perhaps a tighter, more edited down 9-episode order that stuck to the script more would have been stronger. I feel this myself, though maybe 12 episodes would have been okay too which would have given some more wriggle room. Extending to 18 I feel has hurt the show because in my opinion it's led to a lot of scenes that feel really drawn out and some that either could have been deleted scenes or cut way down (an example being the most recent Audrey scene, which ran over 10 and a half continuous minutes in a scene that would have felt long at 3-4 minutes!). I think people are just pointing things like that out, not implying Lynch is trying to fill up 18 episodes, but rather saying it seems like he isn't cutting anything. A good writer/director always knows when to cut the fat, in my opinion. Either way, as you say, it is a matter of taste. A part of me does like that we get to see all of this, warts and all, but another part just feels a shorter, tighter cut with less episodes would have produced a stronger, more compelling series.


That's all 100% fair! It's definitely a matter of taste and conventional wisdom favors your take on this for sure. I'm an editor myself, and I know exactly how these scenes could be tightened up and what could be cut out and the reasons why those are the correct decisions from a conventional point of view. I'm just so happy that Lynch isn't approaching it that way!

I'm, personally, loving the pacing and structure of this thing. It feels so good to just luxuriate in it. Somewhat perversely, it's other shows/films that are trying my patience lately. I keep feeling like things move on to other business just as a scene is getting going. Like I said in another post, Lynch has thoroughly gotten into my head.

By the way, I would not be at all surprised if we end up with a lengthy, "More Missing Pieces" style deleted scenes collection on the blu ray of this thing. We all know Lynch's approach is to overshoot and that he is not at all hesitant to cut scenes. And, sure, with stuff like Blue Velvet and FWWM he was working with contractually mandated running times, but INLAND EMPIRE had 75 minutes of brilliant deleted material and he easily could have made that thing four hours long if he had wanted to.

Also, this is splitting hairs but KM recently said that the script he read was about 500 pages.

Some great points here. And I just edited my post on the other page to add that I don't feel Lynch has cut anything this time around! I mean, I wouldn't be surprised I suppose if it turns out there's another 2 hours of additional footage like with his movies, but this time it really feels like he didn't want to cut anything. A good example being the Audrey scene (10.5 minutes!) and the woman getting up from the sofa (2.5 minutes), in this episode alone.

I'm torn on how I feel about this. A part of me loves it just like you for the reasons you outline above. But another part of me really feels this would have been more compelling and exciting had it been cut down. I don't know. I also think it would have been better if it hadn't been released as a weekly episodic show, which I think does it no favours. So I'm torn on how I feel about it.
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firefly2193
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:18 pm

LateReg wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:
My only thought is that stuff like this is the result of the extension from 9 parts to 18, or some something as a result of the editing.


I still don't get the whole speculation about the "extension from 9 parts to 18" thing going on here. We don't know exactly what happened, but we do know that Lynch has complete control. By that logic, he wanted it to be 18 hours, or thereabouts. Maybe The Return would have been tighter or even better if it were the originally announced 9 parts, but in Lynch's head it seems that it was always 18 parts. I'm just saying: We shouldn't blame the "filler" on the fact that it is 18 hours instead of 9. It was always supposed to be the way it is now, Lynch didn't add in stuff just to fill time because the episode count suddenly doubled. Sure, if Showtime would have restricted him to only 9 hours, then this would be a different beast entirely, and in that sense the 18 hours enables Lynch to linger longer than some would like. But every time someone comments in the negative about the doubling of the runtime, it seems to insinuate that Lynch isn't doing this the way that HE thinks is best, which I think is certainly false.


It was speculation on my part, but it was based on the idea that when that whole showdown occurred where Lynch demanded a larger budget from Showtime, Showtime eventually agreed but on the condition of getting 18 parts out of it. This may or may not be true (I expect we learn a lot more in a few years time and all the spoiler sensitivity is gone and people talk about the whole process more).
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby rocketsan22 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:20 pm

Noticed last night that my emotional connection to TP:TR disconnects at the end of the show opener. The theme takes me back to a very special place, a place where I lived and died with every character.

Now, I can say I only really care about Carl Rodd... and that disconnected feeling sucks big time for a show I care about so very deeply...
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Jonah
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:20 pm

Have any of you guys seen the interesting lists floating around online about character appearances and location appearances - i.e. tabulating how many minutes each character and location has appeared in the series. It's really interesting stuff. Now I'm obsessed with finding out what the longest continuous scene(s) have been to date. Before this new series, I would have said the waiter sequence in episode 8 or the bank scene in episode 29 (or some of the red rooms sequences there). Now I'm convinced it has to be the Audrey scene in Part 12.
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referendum
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:22 pm

@alreadygoneplaces

I did think about this, but I'd be damned if I can figure out how it works. Any takers on that?

somebody on here suggested this and worked it out, can't remember who, earlier in this thread i think. total of numbers written on the arm = one number per letter of the word coordinates + 2 extra numbers /// so mnemonic was: coordinates+2.

I assumed that was right without checking it. :) Makes sense with the scene(s).

[edit, just looked at the actual number, no idea how that works]
Last edited by referendum on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
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The Gazebo
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:26 pm

Jonah wrote:Have any of you guys seen the interesting lists floating around online about character appearances and location appearances - i.e. tabulating how many minutes each character and location has appeared in the series. It's really interesting stuff. Now I'm obsessed with finding out what the longest continuous scene(s) have been to date. Before this new series, I would have said the waiter sequence in episode 8 or the bank scene in episode 29 (or some of the red rooms sequences there). Now I'm convinced it has to be the Audrey scene in Part 12.


What about Dougie at the beginning of ep 6? Wasn't that even longer?
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wxray
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:30 pm

Jonah wrote:Still thinking about that Audrey scene. ... It gives it a play-like feeling too. But, unlike in the Hitchcock movies, in this scene the characters barely even movie. Audrey has a little bit of physical movement putting on her jacket and her husband, Charlie, has some minor physical interaction with the phone. Otherwise, for a full 10 minutes and 30-something seconds, the two characters remain in the one position, talking. It has to be some kind of record.

So... On rewatching that scene. I'm starting to like it, kind of in a way you like bitter coffee. At first sip, you spit it out. Later, you enjoy the complexity of the taste.

I have a "candy eating" side of me when watching TV and Movies. That scene was not candy. Upon watching last night, I wanted candy (Candie?) and instead was put off and pissed, and went to bed and had a TP nightmare.

Now, after "sipping coffee," I'm falling into the camp that there is something really important here. The dialog is so stunted and frustrating. Sherilyn literally does not move her feet. For 10 minutes. This is Damn Unnatural. You expect her to take a step forward for her stare down. Nope. "Something's Wrong." And then of course we get the 30 second stare from Charlie at the end. Is he even breathing (yes, but that's it). I've come around to appreciate what Fenn gave, considering the restraints/constraints she was under.

And the other stuff just adds to it. The odd open panning shot. His desk directly in front of the only apparent doors. His impossible paper load. The piles of paper requiring numerous paperweights. The fireplace a little reminiscent of American Girl's fireplace.

Is it a dream? Coma? Trip to the black lodge? Hell, I don't know. It is something, and something I now want to come back to watch.

Regarding the Coma and current events (Billy): if people are visiting and talking around bedside, say the orderlies and nurses gossiping, it can get into conscience. Or maybe it is just an overnight dream. Or an Evil Cooper induced event. Or, Black Lodge Logic.

Then again, maybe it is just a shitty scene jammed in at the last minute by a P.O.'d director and actor. I don't know, but I will stay tuned to find out.
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Major Briggs
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Major Briggs » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:34 pm

Guys, something I was wondering. In The Secret History of TP, Tammy comments that the blue rose files are above her level of clearence. Now, in the series timeline, she's officially a Blue Rose agent. So by the series timeline, shouldn't the dossier have already been found by now? I wonder if this is denifite proof that Lynch really couldn't care less about Mark's book.
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Major Briggs
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Major Briggs » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:38 pm

Major Briggs wrote:Guys, something I was wondering. In The Secret History of TP, Tammy comments that the blue rose files are above her level of clearence. Now, in the series timeline, she's officially a Blue Rose agent. So by the series timeline, shouldn't the dossier have already been found by now? I wonder if this is denifite proof that Lynch really couldn't care less about Mark's book.


There are other things that don't add up. Like the 2016 case being connected to an 1991 crime (which is never mentioned), which then connected to the Laura Palmer investigation.

And if the dossier was found before the events of the series, Gordon should already be aware that something's not right with Cooper, but it comes as a surprise for him in Parts 3/4
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Jonah
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:38 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
Jonah wrote:Have any of you guys seen the interesting lists floating around online about character appearances and location appearances - i.e. tabulating how many minutes each character and location has appeared in the series. It's really interesting stuff. Now I'm obsessed with finding out what the longest continuous scene(s) have been to date. Before this new series, I would have said the waiter sequence in episode 8 or the bank scene in episode 29 (or some of the red rooms sequences there). Now I'm convinced it has to be the Audrey scene in Part 12.


What about Dougie at the beginning of ep 6? Wasn't that even longer?

Do you mean the one with him standing by the statue and the security guard? I just checked and it seems to be a couple of minutes. Most of the long sequences of note - that one, Cole's girl, even the notorious sweeping scene - are 2-3 minutes (but feel longer), which just makes it even more amazing how long the Audrey scene is at 10 plus minutes.
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Dreamy Audrey
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:39 pm

The Gazebo wrote:
Jonah wrote:Have any of you guys seen the interesting lists floating around online about character appearances and location appearances - i.e. tabulating how many minutes each character and location has appeared in the series. It's really interesting stuff. Now I'm obsessed with finding out what the longest continuous scene(s) have been to date. Before this new series, I would have said the waiter sequence in episode 8 or the bank scene in episode 29 (or some of the red rooms sequences there). Now I'm convinced it has to be the Audrey scene in Part 12.


What about Dougie at the beginning of ep 6? Wasn't that even longer?

What scene are you talking about? The scene at the beginning of Part 6 with Dougie and the statue takes a bit under 2 minutes :D

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