Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

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BigEd
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:21 pm

It didn't dawn on me at the time, but apparently the reason that the "Ike" hit was via sealed envelope was so that Duncan Todd would not see that Dougie is a twin of Mr. C. I'm guessing that Duncan has interacted in person with Mr. C, and that is why only Ike got to see the photos. Not sure if Duncan would have seen Dougie on the LV local news.... :?:
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:52 pm

BigEd wrote:It didn't dawn on me at the time, but apparently the reason that the "Ike" hit was via sealed envelope was so that Duncan Todd would not see that Dougie is a twin of Mr. C. I'm guessing that Duncan has interacted in person with Mr. C, and that is why only Ike got to see the photos. Not sure if Duncan would have seen Dougie on the LV local news.... :?:


This is what I'm all confused on now -- IS Mr C actually trying to kill Dougie/Coop? Obviously he wouldn't have wanted Dougie killed before he was getting called back to the Black Lodge. Dougie was needed for that. But these attempted hits on Dougie's life go back before Coop came out of the Lodge and assumed a place in Dougie's life, no?

Isn't the idea that Lorraine was originally hired to take care of the hit on Dougie (which I think most people have linked to the first Duncan Todd scene, where he tells Roger "She's got the job")? And then Ike killed her when she failed to deliver? Then Ike gets the call to kill Dougie (and presumably intended for ACTUAL Dougie, not for Dale Cooper).

Alternate possibility: in episode 5, when the failed hit on Dougie is reported to Lorraine, she rings up the weird wireless box in Argentina that presumably has something to do with Philip Jeffries.... SO: did Jeffries order the hit on Dougie Jones knowing that he was an imposter meant to get sucked into the lodge in place of Mr C....?

Something's not lining up here... at least according to the info given to the viewer so far. I still don't think it's clear the DoppelCoop is trying to kill Dougie/Coop. I mean it would make sense that he would WANT to (Mike: "One of you must die"). DoppelCoop seems pretty resilient all the same: throwing up the creamed corn, getting shot, and even having Bob extracted from him -- he's still rolling as usual.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby ryanmj1993 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:01 pm

So have we actually saw a shot of the Welcome to Twin Peaks sign??
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BigEd
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:09 pm

thedarktrees wrote:
BigEd wrote:It didn't dawn on me at the time, but apparently the reason that the "Ike" hit was via sealed envelope was so that Duncan Todd would not see that Dougie is a twin of Mr. C. I'm guessing that Duncan has interacted in person with Mr. C, and that is why only Ike got to see the photos. Not sure if Duncan would have seen Dougie on the LV local news.... :?:


This is what I'm all confused on now -- IS Mr C actually trying to kill Dougie/Coop? Obviously he wouldn't have wanted Dougie killed before he was getting called back to the Black Lodge. Dougie was needed for that. But these attempted hits on Dougie's life go back before Coop came out of the Lodge and assumed a place in Dougie's life, no?

Isn't the idea that Lorraine was originally hired to take care of the hit on Dougie (which I think most people have linked to the first Duncan Todd scene, where he tells Roger "She's got the job")? And then Ike killed her when she failed to deliver? Then Ike gets the call to kill Dougie (and presumably intended for ACTUAL Dougie, not for Dale Cooper).

Alternate possibility: in episode 5, when the failed hit on Dougie is reported to Lorraine, she rings up the weird wireless box in Argentina that presumably has something to do with Philip Jeffries.... SO: did Jeffries order the hit on Dougie Jones knowing that he was an imposter meant to get sucked into the lodge in place of Mr C....?

Something's not lining up here... at least according to the info given to the viewer so far. I still don't think it's clear the DoppelCoop is trying to kill Dougie/Coop. I mean it would make sense that he would WANT to (Mike: "One of you must die"). DoppelCoop seems pretty resilient all the same: throwing up the creamed corn, getting shot, and even having Bob extracted from him -- he's still rolling as usual.


The first attempted hit that we saw was after 2:53 on that day when Mr. C was supposed to get pulled back into the lodge and Dougie Coop came through the receptacle. I think we are supposed to believe that those two hit men were told to "pull the trigger" NO sooner than 2:53 pm.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:23 pm

BigEd wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
BigEd wrote:It didn't dawn on me at the time, but apparently the reason that the "Ike" hit was via sealed envelope was so that Duncan Todd would not see that Dougie is a twin of Mr. C. I'm guessing that Duncan has interacted in person with Mr. C, and that is why only Ike got to see the photos. Not sure if Duncan would have seen Dougie on the LV local news.... :?:


This is what I'm all confused on now -- IS Mr C actually trying to kill Dougie/Coop? Obviously he wouldn't have wanted Dougie killed before he was getting called back to the Black Lodge. Dougie was needed for that. But these attempted hits on Dougie's life go back before Coop came out of the Lodge and assumed a place in Dougie's life, no?

Isn't the idea that Lorraine was originally hired to take care of the hit on Dougie (which I think most people have linked to the first Duncan Todd scene, where he tells Roger "She's got the job")? And then Ike killed her when she failed to deliver? Then Ike gets the call to kill Dougie (and presumably intended for ACTUAL Dougie, not for Dale Cooper).

Alternate possibility: in episode 5, when the failed hit on Dougie is reported to Lorraine, she rings up the weird wireless box in Argentina that presumably has something to do with Philip Jeffries.... SO: did Jeffries order the hit on Dougie Jones knowing that he was an imposter meant to get sucked into the lodge in place of Mr C....?

Something's not lining up here... at least according to the info given to the viewer so far. I still don't think it's clear the DoppelCoop is trying to kill Dougie/Coop. I mean it would make sense that he would WANT to (Mike: "One of you must die"). DoppelCoop seems pretty resilient all the same: throwing up the creamed corn, getting shot, and even having Bob extracted from him -- he's still rolling as usual.


The first attempted hit that we saw was after 2:53 on that day when Mr. C was supposed to get pulled back into the lodge and Dougie Coop came through the receptacle. I think we are supposed to believe that those two hit men were told to "pull the trigger" NO sooner than 2:53 pm.


Right, of course! Completely losing track of the course of events from these early episodes. That actually does line up -- so we do have to presume DoppelCoop knows that real Coop will come out from the lodge, and presumably just wants him eliminated completely. OK, that's straightforward.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:40 pm

thedarktrees wrote:
BigEd wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
This is what I'm all confused on now -- IS Mr C actually trying to kill Dougie/Coop? Obviously he wouldn't have wanted Dougie killed before he was getting called back to the Black Lodge. Dougie was needed for that. But these attempted hits on Dougie's life go back before Coop came out of the Lodge and assumed a place in Dougie's life, no?

Isn't the idea that Lorraine was originally hired to take care of the hit on Dougie (which I think most people have linked to the first Duncan Todd scene, where he tells Roger "She's got the job")? And then Ike killed her when she failed to deliver? Then Ike gets the call to kill Dougie (and presumably intended for ACTUAL Dougie, not for Dale Cooper).

Alternate possibility: in episode 5, when the failed hit on Dougie is reported to Lorraine, she rings up the weird wireless box in Argentina that presumably has something to do with Philip Jeffries.... SO: did Jeffries order the hit on Dougie Jones knowing that he was an imposter meant to get sucked into the lodge in place of Mr C....?

Something's not lining up here... at least according to the info given to the viewer so far. I still don't think it's clear the DoppelCoop is trying to kill Dougie/Coop. I mean it would make sense that he would WANT to (Mike: "One of you must die"). DoppelCoop seems pretty resilient all the same: throwing up the creamed corn, getting shot, and even having Bob extracted from him -- he's still rolling as usual.


The first attempted hit that we saw was after 2:53 on that day when Mr. C was supposed to get pulled back into the lodge and Dougie Coop came through the receptacle. I think we are supposed to believe that those two hit men were told to "pull the trigger" NO sooner than 2:53 pm.


Right, of course! Completely losing track of the course of events from these early episodes. That actually does line up -- so we do have to presume DoppelCoop knows that real Coop will come out from the lodge, and presumably just wants him eliminated completely. OK, that's straightforward.

This confused me too. I mean we have to assume EvilCoop knows the EXACT time the switch will happen. And trusts the hitmen will NOT kill Dougie before. And there is certainly no dialogue to suggest the hit HAD to take place after that time. But rewatching it again I do think that's the scenario we are supposed to assume.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:42 pm

ryanmj1993 wrote:So have we actually saw a shot of the Welcome to Twin Peaks sign??

Nope. Not yet.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:46 pm

Several thoughts surfaced during hours of yard work today:

Analyzing the room where Charlie and Audrey are conversing has revealed some very weird stuff, but the fact that she is so perfectly intact is strange in itself. She was standing in the blast radius of no small explosion but doesn't show any physical sign of it.

Was Albert really getting fed up with Gordon's friend, or was he deciphering a message from her body language? They're both hyper aware of what Diane might do with any information she can get her hands on. This could have been a silent transmission for the sake of total security. Gordon also referred to her as visiting a friend of her mother, who has a daughter that's gone missing. It's reminiscent of Lil -- who delivered coded messages using nothing but unique movements -- being his "mother's sister's girl". This could even explain how Gordon knows this friend to begin with: Gordon's aunt is friends with her mother (and Lil is missing!).

The scene with Hutch and Chantal has been called unnecessary but wasn't the whole point to illustrate how callous and deranged they are? Don't know about you guys but it got me concerned, especially when you consider how yrev capable they appear to be. He was fairly eager to find a way to get the warden into their van for a torture session. That really gave me the chills. What's particularly uncomfortable about it is imagining how it must be a regular thing for them, not to mention that this happens in the real world too.
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sewhite2000
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:53 pm

I agree with a couple of other posters. The hit on Dougie was contracted before he became DougieCoop, but Evil Coop knew what time that was going to happen, and the assassins were instructed to not kill him until after that time.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:59 pm

sewhite2000 wrote:I agree with a couple of other posters. The hit on Dougie was contracted before he became DougieCoop, but Evil Coop knew what time that was going to happen, and the assassins were instructed to not kill him until after that time.

I think that's supposed to be the takeaway. I do think actually mentioning the time restriction would have helped though.

And since this plan had been in place for like ten years, it might have made sense for EvilCoop to make sure the switch actually happened before going thru with the hit.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby tresojos » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:37 pm

i loved the hutch and chantal scene. the fact they go to wendys after killing someone in front of their family. #relatable icons
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kafa81
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby kafa81 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:42 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Several thoughts surfaced during hours of yard work today:

Analyzing the room where Charlie and Audrey are conversing has revealed some very weird stuff, but the fact that she is so perfectly intact is strange in itself. She was standing in the blast radius of no small explosion but doesn't show any physical sign of it.

Was Albert really getting fed up with Gordon's friend, or was he deciphering a message from her body language? They're both hyper aware of what Diane might do with any information she can get her hands on. This could have been a silent transmission for the sake of total security. Gordon also referred to her as visiting a friend of her mother, who has a daughter that's gone missing. It's reminiscent of Lil -- who delivered coded messages using nothing but unique movements -- being his "mother's sister's girl". This could even explain how Gordon knows this friend to begin with: Gordon's aunt is friends with her mother (and Lil is missing!).

The scene with Hutch and Chantal has been called unnecessary but wasn't the whole point to illustrate how callous and deranged they are? Don't know about you guys but it got me concerned, especially when you consider how yrev capable they appear to be. He was fairly eager to find a way to get the warden into their van for a torture session. That really gave me the chills. What's particularly uncomfortable about it is imagining how it must be a regular thing for them, not to mention that this happens in the real world too.


I think it is also supposed to give us a sense of timing and what is to come next.

Mr.C says he wants Hutch and Chantal to kill a warden for him and gives them the details...
After that he says: And then I've got a doubleheader for you in Las Vegas...which I assume means Cooper and possibly Mr.Todd...


Now that Hutch and Chantal have killed the warden, we know they are on their way to Las Vegas to go after Cooper and I guess Mr.Todd...?

And we might see this in part 14 or 15 is my guess...I just wanna know how Cooper is going to get outta this one....or maybe he wont get out of it :(
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:08 am

This actually hasn't been mentioned for a couple of pages now, so maybe I should just let it go, but ... ravingnightmare is really angry about Ben's bicycle soliloquy and claims it's out of context. I wonder about the ages of my fellow posters sometimes. Old Twin Peaks, while groundbreaking in many ways, was also often conventional in its techniques of narrative storytelling and scene structure. It was the latest in a long line of mystery shows and soap operatic-type shows. In fact, Mark Frost had been a writer on Hill Street Blues, right? One of TP's most praised predecessors.

I mention all that because, okay, people in real life when confronted by the sheriff with the revelation that their grandson is on the lam for the hit-and-run death of a small boy and the attempted murder of the only eyewitness who could identify him probably don't get wistful about a bicycle from childhood. But people in soap operatic television shows DO. Those of us who have been around for a long time know that dramatic shows are structured in such a way that they don't necessarily reflect how people would talk in real life. It would probably be boring if they did! And Lynch and Frost are older than me and even more well versed in that history.

Here's why Ben's monologue is NOT out of context:

1) It's too painful for him to keep to talking to Beverly about what a shit his grandson is and how much his own failings may have contributed to his grandson being that way, so he retreats into a safe, happy story from his childhood. He's just said that Richard never had a father, which leads him directly into reminiscing about his own father. Plenty of context there! The subject of "fathers" provides a natural dialogue transition. Anyone who's ever taken a screenwriting class knows this (I have. I'm kinda doubting ravingnightmare ever has).

2) The scene is also intended to make us realize that there's a dose of irony to everything Ben is saying. Richard had no father. Ben, it sounds like, had a pretty cool father. And yet, they BOTH still turned out evil! At least Ben did for most of his younger years.

Anyway, it's very obvious to me that there are multiple purposes to this monologue, and it really irks me to hear someone saying with passion that it's completely out of context to the rest of the scene. I couldn't possibly disagree more with that assessment. Not every line of dialogue has to barrel along from one plot revelation to another. And I would think someone who has any familiarity at all with this series and Lynch in general would KNOW that.

This sort of thing goes back to at least Citizen Kane and Bernstein reminiscing about the pretty girl with the white dress and the umbrella that he only saw for a few seconds but has remembered all his life. Was that out of context? It doesn't advance the plot in any way, and it doesn't logically follow as natural response to the questions he's being asked about Kane. My God, if there had been social media 75 years ago, ravingnightmare would be live Tweeting, "What is this stupid umbrella dialogue? Let's get back to the story already!"

PS The scene with Ben and Jerry in the jail cell reminiscing about the flashlight-toting, dancing babysitter, complete with uncanny little Ben-and-Jerry lookalikes that ends with Jerry wistfully asking, "Lord, what's become of us?" is my favorite, bar none, in the entire series, old and new.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Rudagger » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:22 am

Ross wrote:
sewhite2000 wrote:I agree with a couple of other posters. The hit on Dougie was contracted before he became DougieCoop, but Evil Coop knew what time that was going to happen, and the assassins were instructed to not kill him until after that time.

I think that's supposed to be the takeaway. I do think actually mentioning the time restriction would have helped though.

And since this plan had been in place for like ten years, it might have made sense for EvilCoop to make sure the switch actually happened before going thru with the hit.


But, if the switch didn't happen, then presumably Doppelcoop would be in the Black Lodge again anyway (and real Coop would've taken his place in the car). What's Doppelcoop care if the real Dougie Jones gets killed at that point? It'd be his last middle finger to the world before returning.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:28 am

I'm very confused by your question, but I hope this helps:

Evil Coop created Dougie specifically so that when Cooper re-entered the real world, he would switch places with Dougie instead of him. There seems to have been some cosmic moment of destiny when Cooper was going to come out of the Black Lodge, and the way it was supposed to work was that Evil Coop would go back in at that same moment. It was preordained. Jeffries told Evil Coop it was going to happen, but Evil Coop told Darya he had a plan for getting out of it. If Dougie had been killed before Cooper left the Lodge, Cooper would have switched places with Evil Coop. Thus, Dougie had to be alive for Evil Coop's plan to work.

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