Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

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Ragnell
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:30 am

Rudagger wrote:
Ross wrote:
Rudagger wrote:
But, if the switch didn't happen, then presumably Doppelcoop would be in the Black Lodge again anyway (and real Coop would've taken his place in the car). What's Doppelcoop care if the real Dougie Jones gets killed at that point? It'd be his last middle finger to the world before returning.

No I meant if the switch didn't happen at all at that exact moment. Like - if for some reason the switch happens an hour late. Or a day late. Then the hit men kill the real Dougie and ruin evilCoops plan. Why not wait til after to make sure?


I assume there is a real specificity to the time it would happen that Doppelcoop already knew about (though, it does beg the question, why be driving around when that happens, and risk getting arrested? But, then again, he got arrested, and had dirt on the warden anyway .. so was that part of his plan? Or just poor plotting? Or do we accept that Doppelcoop has some sort of supernatural omnipotence).


Well, he wanted to be arrested to get Ray. Timing it this way means if the Dougie plan doesn't work he has at least managed to royally screw over Good Dale by getting him into a car accident AND having enough incriminating stuff in the trunk to send him to federal prison.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:34 am

Ragnell wrote:Timing it this way means if the Dougie plan doesn't work he has at least managed to royally screw over Good Dale by getting him into a car accident AND having enough incriminating stuff in the trunk to send him to federal prison.

Jesus... in all my thoughts about this show over the past couple months (and to my shame, I've thought of little else), I had never thought of that. If poor Coop had exchanged places with his doppelgänger as he "should" have, he'd be royally screwed. :(
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DeepBlueSeed
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:46 pm

Jasper wrote:
DeepBlueSeed wrote:I'm increasingly fascinated by Jeffries. Reading up on theories about him written prior to The Return (how, in the Lodge, because of the weird effects of time, Jeffries may have encountered Cooper or his doppelgänger, and that's why he responds to Cooper the way he does in FWWM)


I thought that was what we were supposed to take from it right off the bat. Did people have other theories about it or something? I don't see any other way to read it.


Sorry, taken a while to respond. No, I suppose not, I just haven't seen FWWM in a long while, so it was just a scene I couldn't remember altogether (and, I suppose, because of the offhand way he refers to Cooper I thought it was more a subtle nod rather than a direct indication to them having encountered each other). With the events unfolding as they are in The Return it was just cool to take a step back and appreciate that earlier moment, to give a little insight into the debate into whose side Jeffries is on.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:46 am

There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.

I love Beymer, but I’m not quite sure what to make of his performance in this one. Ben’s grief over Richard’s crimes feels like it is supposed to play as sincere in the context of the scene, but the performance comes across like Ben is play-acting (it feels a lot like the S2 scene where Ben unsuccessfully attempts to show emotion after Cooper rescues Audrey from One-Eyed Jacks and gives him that wonderfully awkward hug). He’s fun to watch in the scene, but none of his reactions come across as honest. I guess maybe that’s just who Ben is?

The comment about Richard not having a father is interesting. It doesn’t seem like any of the townspeople suspect Dale of rape (we certainly don’t get the impression from this scene that Ben believes that). So who does Ben think is Richard’s father? Wheeler? For that matter, Wheeler himself would have no reason not to believe he was the father. Presumably Audrey and/or Ben would have contacted him. One never really knows, of course, but he came across as a pretty upstanding guy (err, aside from his seduction of an 18-year-old HS student)...but I guess he turned out to be a heel once a child came into the picture? I can’t think of any other explanation why he wouldn’t have been part of Richard’s life.

I’ve been generally opposed to the idea of continuity flubs in S3 and TSHoTP being intentional, but Ben bringing specific attention to Miriam’s last name here really caught my attention. I still think that “Hodges” on the envelope was a prop error, probably. But maybe DKL noticed and liked the ambiguity, and added this line? Whether intentional or not, the work is ours to interpret now, and I think this does play into the idea of malleable reality/subjective memory on a global scale that I have speculated DKL and (especially) Frost may be toying with.

I really think Clark Middleton gives one of the funniest performances in all of TP history. I can’t get enough of Charlie.

I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.
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mtwentz
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:54 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.


We've been led to believe there is a medical issue with Ontkean, but I am still suspicious that the true 'personal reason' is that Ontkean wasn't being offered as large a role as he was in the original series and it just wasn't worth his while to be involved in any way.
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:55 pm

mtwentz wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote: I love to imagine Harry receiving that room key. I really wonder why we couldn’t even at least hear his voice on the phone at some point, given that Ontkean was originally gung-ho to return.


We've been led to believe there is a medical issue with Ontkean, but I am still suspicious that the true 'personal reason' is that Ontkean wasn't being offered as large a role as he was in the original series and it just wasn't worth his while to be involved in any way.


It was still a fairly large role though (assuming that introducing Frank was not part of the original plan).
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:10 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.


Agreed, I just rewatched part 12 and Albert's character change is definitely something I noticed. The guy from the original show is the same one who's been on the Blue Rose task force all along? I guess theoretically he could still be aware/accept the presence of supernatural things but still consider Coop's methods like throwing rocks at cans frivolous or not grounded in reality.
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bowisneski
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Re: Part 12 - Let's rock (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:27 am

ThumbsUp wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:There’s still something a little odd about Albert acting as the straight-faced mouthpiece for all this mythological mumbo jumbo. I know, people have justified it by saying every supernatural investigation team needs a Dana Scully. But he doesn’t come across as a Scully in S3 — in the original show, he was an utter cynic whenever Coop would bring up the supernatural, confining his findings to the Planet Earth. In S3, however, he spouts this stuff without reservation, seemingly fully believing it. I guess a lot can happen in 25 years, but it’s an odd 180-degree turnaround. One of Albert’s many contradictions, I guess. His path is a strange and difficult one.


Agreed, I just rewatched part 12 and Albert's character change is definitely something I noticed. The guy from the original show is the same one who's been on the Blue Rose task force all along? I guess theoretically he could still be aware/accept the presence of supernatural things but still consider Coop's methods like throwing rocks at cans frivolous or not grounded in reality.


My assumption is that Albert wasn't yet part of the Blue Rose task force during the original series. He was more like Sam Stanley or Tamara Preston, on his way to induction and experiencing weird things but not fully informed or a believer yet. Or maybe doubles were something he was willing to accept, but an inhabiting spirit was too much at that point in time.

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