Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

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sylvia_north
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:35 am

Novalis wrote:
whoisalhedges wrote:
Novalis wrote:I'm the kind of person who considers Glitch Art beautiful, so for me these faults, bugs and defects, whether motivated or unmotivated, are absolutely significant. I recognise of course they may be entirely inconsequential to the plot, but the plot is hardly ever what has held my attention with Twin Peaks, or indeed most of Lynch's work. I'm certainly not hooked into the idea that everything has to mean something. I love Asemic Writing for example; here it's the opacity of the form, the fact that it doesn't transparently communicate anything but brings the materiality of the signifier as such to the foreground. A lot of Lynch's devices do the same, especially his experiments in sound design.

Agreed.

When it comes to the "glitches" in TPTR (and TSHOTP, but that does have to be considered slightly differently at least, as Lynch was uninvolved) I think there are three kinds, and they are ALL present:

1) evidence of "something" going on in-universe, particularly in Twin Peaks itself
2) an artistic choice made by Lynch (and/or Frost)
3) mistakes

I think there have been some mistakes. Miriam's last name on the letter? The crew said that was a prop error. Serendipitously, it worked - but we were told it was a mistake. I'm sure there have been others.

When it comes to #1, actual temporal anomalies, my thoughts are very close to this article: https://25yearslatersite.com/2017/07/19 ... rt-jacoby/ I don't think what we're looking at is some kind of Star Trek/P.K. Dick alternate timelines, I just think it's these little "timequakes" for lack of a better word.

And with artistic decisions, often made in editing: I don't think Diane wearing green while putting coordinates into the phone, "Dougie" having a catch with Sonny Jim (who is wearing the same outfit he wore in Part 5), Bobby finding something from the Major "today," or perhaps most controversially Hawk's going to Glastonbury Grove in Part 2, are instances of time jumping forward and back. I think those scenes were placed where they are during Lynch's editing his "18 hour movie" into 18 parts, into television "episodes." I think he made these choices for thematic, emotional, dramatic reasons. Sometimes (especially with Lynch) the medium is the message; he often structures his films for a very specific reason - and that reason is intuitive, not plot-dependent.

I'm not the most eagle-eyed viewer. I didn't catch ANY of the wardrobe "malfunctions." I didn't catch Ed's reflection until it was shown to me. But I've still seen a LOT of things being shown "out of order."

TIME as it's traditionally understood isn't the only thing we're dealing with here, either. I'm still in the camp (I might be the only person who thinks this, in fact :lol: ) that in the past 2 parts we've seen "Schrödinger's Audrey" - nobody in Twin Peaks has seen her. The only character we see interacting with Audrey is Charlie. So, as far as I'm concerned, she is unobserved; and as such, she both woke up from her coma and did not. I'm FAR from the only person to look at Lynch with a wink toward quantum mechanics; Martha Nochimson wrote a whole book about it. But I am the only person I know to consider Audrey Horne in TPTR to be in an unobserved, and thus simultaneously dead and alive state. How that's gonna break down, I haven't the faintest. But until she talks to someone whom we have EVER seen outside that room, her reality in unobserved.


From the sounds of it I really have to read Nochimson's Swerves. I got a lot out of her Passion of David Lynch.

It's really interesting, this Schrödinger's Audrey scenario. I chose 'other' in the Audrey's Situation poll because I couldn't make my mind up whether she was dead or alive, comatose or awake, delusional or sane. It never struck me as a possibility before, but now that you've mentioned it, maybe she simply is under-determined, i.e. in an unresolved superposition. :lol:

I also smile to myself that Charlie threatening to end her story 'too' plays a lot like a Romantic-Irony Lynch insert, reflexively referencing the way a lot of other secondary characters have had to be axed in this season. Ludwig Tieck eat your heart out.



Robert Jacoby in TSHOTP is something deeper than a parallel timeline. The multiverse coexisting with this one seems like the best explanation. For anyone who says TSHOTP is just retconning the storyline to taste neglects the very obvious two deaths. No one writes that badly intentionally.
Spoiler:
We see the same thing happen at Jack Rabbits that we do at the convenience store , and then there is the 2:53 jump from American Girl and Cooper entering the Lodge, which now has Naido entering Twin Peaks while Cooper is hovering in the box even as Cole is looking for Dougie Jones in his subjective timeline



Spoiler:
And now we know Tina is a 'real' character, so Audrey must be in real time. Unless Audrey has something to do with why Billy had a bad night and she skipped into a multiverse while his face was getting messed up, Pete Dayton style


Yes, read Swerves for sure!!
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tlk
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby tlk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:27 am

LateReg wrote:It's Tom Sizemore from Heat.

Yep. Just thought he was feckin A in this ep.
blue_rose_case
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby blue_rose_case » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:42 pm

Noticed on my re-watch today that when doppelCoop is riding the elevator at The Farm, the text "No Passengers" is displayed behind him. Possible clue that, as has been speculated, Bob is, indeed, no longer with him?
sewhite2000
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:39 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:So if we take the edited reflection as intentional, what are we to infer? Since Lynch is treating this as an eighteen hour film, and in that regards one wouldn't have the ability to stop the film and rewind in his ideal scenario. Is this an Easter egg that Lynch and Frost would point out after the fact to the plot?

Are they suggesting something down the line with Ed, who hasn't had any weight to the story fourteen hours in? Or that it signifies doppelgängers existing in all of us that will be an emerging and end plot point? Or will it be representative of something Engels mentioned years ago about certain time frames coexisting minutes or seconds apart that was touched upon briefly in FWWM between Cooper and Jeffries
Whatever the trick done with Ed, I fully agree it is not meant to be noticed, but possibly slightly subconsciously registered to encompass the series's themes.

To me, personally, I think it will just amount to a detail people years from now will say, "what was that all about?!"


Here's another poster suggesting the moving reflection might mean dopplegangers exist inside all of us, implying possession. So, I found three posts that suggest possession in fewer than five minutes yet you scream in capital letters that not one person said it. Clearly, you are wrong.
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:39 pm

Can we maybe get a separate thread for the reflection discussion?
claaa7
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:32 am

i am currently doing my rewatch of Twin Peaks: The Return. Now that the story has all been laid out for us i want to experience the whole shebang as a whole. i started watching episode 1/2 on Tuesday and yesterday i finnished 11/12/13/14. it's pretty great seeing it like this, for example Mister C's hunt for the coordinates doesn't seem like it's a months long plotline and the "Dougie" strand (which might be my favorite of it all) seems more balanced in hindsight.

if anyone is currently doing a rewatch i suggest to switch the order of episodes 12 and 13 so that ep. 13 directly follows ep. 11.. man does those two episodes flow so much better together! there's really nothing in ep. 13 that couldn't come directly after 11 and especially how the Dougie plotline picks up right after the "Heartbreaking" scene works wonders for the narrative.. ep. 12 and 14 also works really well in tandem.

Spoilers for other episodes:

Spoiler:
the only scene that's hurt is introducing Audrey in 13 instead of 12, as i think her apperance in 12 was fantastic - the way it broke from Jacoby's angry rant to a sudden dreamlike stillness (like the Formica tabletop), with Audrey just standing there in silence while we pan across the room.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:55 pm

Ray clarifies (?) “Jeffries”’ motives: Ray has only ever spoken to Jeffries on the phone, he makes it sound like his imprisonment was a set-up to protect him and/or bait Mr. C (?), and Jeffries wants Mr. C dead because he has something inside him “they” want (Bob). Who are “they”? The case for “Jeffries” being either Mike or in league with him is getting stronger and stronger.

So Ray is working for Mr. C, the FBI, the Lodge spirits, and is also a member of Renzo’s merry band?! He was sure a busy little bee. Surprising that Renzo is ok with Ray freelancing, he seems very possessive of his labor force.

We know Todd works for Mr. C. Is Mr. C behind the Vegas insurance fraud ring? Is this part of how he made the fortune that let him buy that gorgeous house in Brazil (and perhaps to become the “anonymous millionaire” behind the NYC experiment)? This Part implies that Dougie was involved in the insurance fraud. It would be amusing if Dougie were unwittingly working for the doppel! One has to ask, though, why Mr. C pals around with redneck lowlives and spends his time in dirt road country if he’s so rich.

Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.

Tony says he just wants to “die or change,” reminiscent of “fix their hearts or die.”

Maybe it’s just wishful thinking because I don’t want to consider Bobby and Shelly having to deal with the tragic murder of their daughter, but I assume Steven’s disappearance is due to him tripping in the woods, and that he never returned home.

The references to “stories” this season remain intriguingly, maddeningly elusive. This viewing, Charlie’s threat to end Audrey’s story reminded me of ‘Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf,’ wherein the older (infertile) married couple have an elaborate lie-agreed-upon that they have an imaginary son at college whom they frequently discuss (named Sonny Jim!), and at the end of the play/film, the husband, fed up, “kills” the son (ending the story). Not exactly sure how this applies to Audrey/Charlie, but I have a hunch it has something to do with their “contract”...

Also note that Charlie says he always feels like himself. Interesting, especially given the possibility that he may simply be a fragment of Audrey’s psyche. And the sole mention of Ghostwood in S3....so much to process, so little to go on. I love it, but it’s not hard to see where the Profoundly Disappointed are coming from.

The Big Ed closing is absolutely beautiful. We know from the earlier scene that all Norma’s recipes are homemade. If Ed were married to Norma, he would be eating her soup from a bowl in their dining room. Instead, he’s getting a sad poignant taste of what could have been, eating her cooking from a to-go container.

This is probably Sarah’s weakest scene in S3, but it still stands out as a high point of Part 13 and the series. Hypnotic, weird, unsettling. Sarah relives her suffering endlessly, feeding her rage, just as the boxing match plays on endless loop.
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Jasper
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:34 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.


It's a weird moment, but Anthony's dandruff was indeed set up beforehand. Take a look at the scene with the conga line in the Lucky 7 offices. When Anthony is freaking out in his office you'll see that he's got heavy dandruff. I noticed it at the time and I was very confused until the poison coffee scene, at which point I was confused in a different way.

I think Dougie-Coop simply becomes distracted by the dandruff and plays around with it. Maybe his intuition is connecting it to the powder that's been put in the coffee. (I don't think the visual similarity is an accident.) Anthony seems to take it as accusatory that "Dougie" is looming over him from behind rather than drinking the poisoned coffee.
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ThumbsUp
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby ThumbsUp » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Hi friends, just finished my first post-finale rewatch. Questions/thoughts:

1. Who gave Ray the ring in the prison? I assume someone Jeffries sent from the Lodge, as the ring was left in the Lodge after Dougie was sent back.

2. What "prison thing" did Jeffries set up with Warden Murphy? That Ray would end up there and lure Mr. C into a cage?

3. If the ring sends dead wearers to the Lodge, why didn't it send Laura back in FWWM? Did Bob take the ring?

4. Does Coop make the same hand gesture he makes when he opens the curtains in the Lodge in part 18, and tries to open them in front of the Palmer house with Carrie Page? Coop does this in part 13 when attempting to open the door in the office building before meeting Anthony.

5. You can VERY faintly hear the "Mike sound" when Coop starts massaging Anthony's dandruff.

6. The constant shots of Bushnell with his old boxing poster behind him fits the season's theme of the bittersweetness of nostalgia.

7. Bushnell mentions the "two cops Dougie found" - I'm dumb, who are these cops again that Anthony is afraid of and apparently worse than Duncan Todd?

8. I have a lot of Audrey thoughts but I put those in the Audrey thread.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:51 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:7. Bushnell mentions the "two cops Dougie found" - I'm dumb, who are these cops again that Anthony is afraid of and apparently worse than Duncan Todd?


I think the Harvey Keitel-type dude who hooks Tony up with the poison, and his partner.
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Xavi
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Re: Part 13 - What story is that, Charlie? (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:47 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Is the “dandruff” on Tony’s shoulders supposed to be some of the poison that blew on to him? I’m still a tad puzzled by that moment.


The dandruff on Tony's shoulder relates to the otherworldly as the motif of Leland's jacket related to the chevron floor.

Image

BTW Hope you notice that Naido/Diane really fell for Cooper.

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