Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

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hopesfall
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by hopesfall »

I'm a little bit meh about the rather comic book reveal of the origin of Freddy's glove, but the rest was absolutely awesome. Maybe I'll appreciate it a little more when it's settled in and I've had a re-watch in the week.

The woods scenes were phenomenal.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by claaa7 »

WhiteLodge90 wrote:Who else looked for the name Linda in the credits tonight thinking the girl at the bar was her?
yep.. very much so
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by Rhodes »

alreadygoneplaces wrote:Was actually disappointed to see the Bowie footage used again as it rules out a recast of Jefferies, which I was really, really, really hoping for.
Mmmmm.... I was completely open minded about The Return. A recast of Bowie (or Ontkean) was the ONE thing I was really, really, really against.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by LateReg »

Mallard wrote:
chromereflectsimage wrote:
Mallard wrote:
Speaking of camera movement, did anyone else notice the digital stutter when Hawk, Bobby, Andy, amnd Truman when they were approaching the vortex locale, or was that just my stream messing up?
I think that was deliberate, like the woodsman at the convenience store. Electrical interference :D
Thanks! I figured that was the case, but since no one had mentioned it I was starting to wonder.
I definitely noticed it too and wondered the same as you did. Thank you for bringing it up.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by Novalis »

This was an excellent episode. Where to begin? I will address the stand-out points as they surface in my mind.

I feel like everything revolves around Cole's dream and his memory of Cooper's dream within his dream, which is something Monica Bellucci points him toward*. Something that he says, in relating past events is that Philip Jeffries was there and that he wasn't there. To state the obvious, this A & ~A is a logical contradiction only within those kinds of logic where a law or axiom of non-contradiction holds, but not at all a contradiction when it comes to the logic of dreams where condensation, contradiction and displacement are the norm. Nor, as readers of Nochimson's Swerves have been pointing out to me, is it a contradiction in quantum physics** -- so we're by no means limited to seeing everything contradictory as a dream. This sequence is mirrored perfectly by the closing Roadhouse conversation in which Tina's daughter emphasises the indeterminacy of her uncle's presence at the Billy-Tina kitchen mess she is recalling. Here, she appears to put the indeterminacy down to her own failure to remember properly, but perhaps it is the case that her uncle was both there and not there, in the same way that Jeffries was both there and not there in the Philadelphia offices***.

At the heart of this part, however, is a massive payoff: the long-awaited sojourn to the lair of the bunny (whom it isn't about, and it is). The thick air of the woods, eastwards beyond the palace, is given form by some amazing sound design. Bobby's boyish excitement turns to trepidation; even Hawk seems rattled. Of all people, who should be most at ease with all this, but Andy? Fearing neither the ominous mist nor the condition of Naido, he takes her by the hand and selflessly gives his time and regard to her. The policeman who cried at Laura's body is the perfect candidate really for the benedictions of the Fireman: someone whose comportment is calibrated to a very human -- humane -- measure. Needleman saw Milk and Honey in that stone stoup and I think I did too.

About the ceiling-eyes of the Fireman, and what Andy saw there. First off, it might be noted that the synopsis was shown (from Andy's perspective at least) in the left eye. Also that it was shown, not narrated (in contrast to the bookend scenes in the part which involved much 'telling'). The synopsis also contained an apparent glimpse into something we haven't seen before -- a strange and haunting episode between Andy and Lucy that I fear may foreshadow or recall some kind of offscreen tragedy. Andy's business-like manner upon returning to the world, resolute and brimming with leadership, is a beauty to behold. When people talk about Twin Peaks characters having hidden depths, Andy is surely the paragon (who can forget his steely reflexes when shooting Jacques to defend Harry?).

I'm not sure about the Sarah scene. I really don't know what it suggests. I'm hoping against an alchemical grand-plan in which the frogbug-Sarah (given the young girl was here, which is by no means satisfied yet) and BOB-Leland conceive Laura as some kind of dreamchild. To me this is simply too on-the-nose occult pallingenesis, too all-round explanatory and not enough ambiguity and mystery. I much prefer the idea that the darkness inside of Sarah is a result of her withdrawal from the world following Laura's death, perhaps even an evil of her own making. To be sure, this festering depression could have been strong enough to open a conduit to the lodge world, I have no issue with that. But to retcon her role in Laura's life, to make her a chin-eating vampiric sleeper-agent of the black lodge from the outset... this causes me vexation. Dramatically speaking, however, the scene was incredible and unforeseeable; Zabrieski's cool-but-level request for the gormless trucker to sit back down, and her matter-of-fact statement that the request was not intended to be polite, sent shivers down my spine. Here she is absolutely bristling with some kind of power, far from a trapped victim in forever looping limbo. For a moment there we are aware, to cheekily borrow a line, that there is no Dana, only Zuul. After the act, she dwindles back down to her familiar, horror-stricken, shrieking self. Yet, momentarily, also dimly complicit in the very ease with which she gives an account of her own innocence.

The green-gloved Freddie is hard for me to witness being a Brit and all-too alert to the sound of the Cockney accent, and its rhyming slang (e.g. Gregory=>Gregory Peck=>Neck). While the story around his glove is sublime and wonderful, I wondered if perhaps this was one story-telling scene, narrated by one character to another, too many. It might have been better in another part of the film, who knows? The mention of the Fireman again, so soon after the reveal of his moniker, seemed a bit of an info-glut. This change of pace in terms of exposition feels hurried and disjoint, as if the tempo has been cranked up more than one gear at a time. It's as if now we know the name of the Fireman and where his loyalties lie, we can dump a whole lot more exposition on you, whether you're still reeling, and -- crucially -- whether you are receptive or not. Personally, by this stage, I wasn't emotionally ready for this level of printout. I felt my defences and resistance rising against Freddie's story. I found myself thinking 'I don't like where this is going', envisaging all kinds of disappointments for the coming episodes, all revolving around a Green Glove superhero figure. I think I would have preferred something else here, maybe something along the lines of a bar-room sweeping scene, to give me more time to process the already abundant reveals. The question of what's in the GN basement, and the return of that chime, was tense and mysterious enough in itself but also strangely felt like a welcome relief from the Freddie-James dialogue. I'm sure it wasn't supposed to feel that way.

One last note: the Blue Rose; something that does not occur in nature. Like a Tulpa. While many of us must be heartily patting ourselves on our 1992 backs (myself included) for having concluded that this was the meaning of the Blue Rose so many years ago, I think it would be very easy to get carried away with this one line. As flabbergasted and ecstatic as I was to hear the words 'does not occur in nature', I was slightly less happy about the Tulpa part. I feel there is a danger with this kind of delicate floating signifier not to nail it to any particular cross or you suck all the magic out of it in the knowledgeable attitude you begin to assume towards it. You'll then have to bear that cross a long time, until you unlearn it. For me Tulpas are a bit too on-the-nose, unless it is taken in the same spirit as Briggs' aliens. So for me the Blue Rose remains mysterious, and is not at all fully explained by doppelgangers, ghola and golems. While I acknowledge Lynch is most likely deeply affected by Kafka's tale about the double, for this one I am calling death of the author. One does not simply exhaust the mystery of the Blue Rose.

I'm falling in love with the character of Tammy Preston. Falling, falling...

Moving on.

Overall, this was a blast. Insofar as I am able, I'd rank it on a par with part 8. It's a very busy part, at times I felt too busy, but in terms of connecting the dots with the wider mythology it definitely had me super enthralled.


*And how awesome is it that Monica Bellucci plays Cole's fantasy version of herself? It's interesting how she really fits this high priestess of dream savvy role without actually having to assume a different identity as such. The acknowledgement of the actor Bellucci as being puissant and mystical in herself; as well as perhaps acknowledging acting itself as an esoteric art, a vocation or calling that imbues the actor with insight and knowledge beyond the pale.

**Quantum tunnelling, it appears, is one phenomenon where something can be said to both happen and not happen; furthermore this is something with observable macro-effects -- the excessive heat problems faced by producers of recent generation microchips in laptops are said to be partly caused by quantum tunnelling, leading to higher temperatures than would be expected. I'm finding this very interesting, how science has to sometimes loosen the rules of classical logic in order to give an explanatory account for its empirical findings. It should be mentioned however that the human sciences like linguistics, anthropology and social theory have long ago already learned that such rules as the excluded middle do not function as expected when applied to symbolic systems.

***The repurposing of the FWWM-TMP shoot of Bowie delighted me greatly. It feels like connections are being made, and the sewing together of narrative layers has begun in earnest now. Continuity, in a word, is being addressed here and as a fan I felt some huge relief. I hope this referencing of the whole continues as the theme of the Return to Twin Peaks comes more and more to the fore.
Last edited by Novalis on Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by reaganenigma »

duplicate
Last edited by reaganenigma on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by reaganenigma »

Not sure if related or if anyone noticed but in one of the scenes where Dougie is staring at the statue of the man with the gun, he bunches up his (GREEN) sleeve cuff over his hand almost like a glove. I cannot recall which episode (I want to say 6). If anyone can come up with a screenshot and any possible Freddie connections that would be awesome! :D
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by wxray »

Dreamy Audrey wrote: I hope it is Bowie's voice because it would be stupid to use footage of him and have him dubbed by another actor, even if they had recast the role for future scenes. But Jeffries' voice is the only voice in this scene that sounded noticeably different from FWWM or the missing pieces (I recorded the three versions of "Who do you think that/this is there" and compared them). And Nathan Frizzell is credited as "Voice", but I don't remember any voice in this episode that could have been meant.

The dialogue was the same except for the this/that difference in Jeffries' line in FWWM and the missing pieces, and Gordon left out the part about Judy when he retold his dream in Part 14.
When Sarah takes off her face, there is a male voice that comes out of the darkness. I do not believe this is Grace's voice. I think this is The Voice in the credits.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by tresojos »

im the dreamer
donna madonna mañana fofana osama bin laden hayward
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by Mallard »

LateReg wrote:
Mallard wrote:
chromereflectsimage wrote:
I think that was deliberate, like the woodsman at the convenience store. Electrical interference :D
Thanks! I figured that was the case, but since no one had mentioned it I was starting to wonder.
I definitely noticed it too and wondered the same as you did. Thank you for bringing it up.
No problem. I have to admit, now that I know it was intentional, that particular effect didn't work for me. It was so reminiscent of actual streaming error that it was jarring.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by DeepBlueSeed »

HagbardCeline wrote:So the case Albert mentions as the first Blue Rose case...has anyone heard a similar story before? I was having some hardcore dejavu there. It definitely wasn't in Secret History, but it was a scenario I am sure I have encountered before. The person killing their double and all that.
'Killing your double' is a theme that cropped up years ago in a popular podcast that has certain parallels with Twin Peaks ("Welcome To Night Vale"). That's what immediately springs to my mind. Within Twin Peaks there only thing I can think of is
Spoiler:
the Fear The Double thing in Secret History that appears as an easter egg upon the book shelf of the Bookhouse Boys, which I first heard mentioned in a podcast analysis of the book.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by pinballmars »

Considering how Lynch and Frost made up for the absence of Michael J. Anderson, I have a feeling that if Phillip Jeffries is required to be onscreen, they might go for a similarly creative solution, rather than a recast.

But who knows?

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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by guildnavigator »

Can't believe nobody has mentioned that Windom Earle was researching Tulpas, as depicted in season two when Cooper and Truman are looking at the tape of Earle's research/lecture on the black lodge.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by mtl »

COFFEE TIME!
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Post by Firewalkwithme91 »

It was awesome. I watched this episode at 4 am and afterwards fell into a very strange and twisted dream. My head is still spinning.

Some notes:
- I love the sudden arrest of Chad. People have been speculating if the Twin Peaks police does any work at all besides looking at 25 year-old cases. Well, it seems like Truman and Hawk were always in the know but we didn´t see them talking about it. If you look at other shows that came out in the last years like say Breaking Bad, Chad´s arrestment would´ve been a season-long arc with twists and turns and a lot of mini-climaxes in between. But this is not Breaking Bad (although BB is fucking amazing) and that´s why it was refreshing to me.

- The guy with the green glove. Okay, did we just see a Lynch-origin story for a new superhero? And yeah, he definitely has to arm-wrestle BadCoop.

- Andy in the black Lodge. I was afraid that this would be goofy and silly but what was I thinking? It was done in a very subtle and intelligent way and Andy was not bumbling arround in another dimension like I was expecting. It makes sense that a naive and sensitive soul like him would be allowed to meet the Fireman and see what happened in the past and what may lie ahead in the future. I really like that Andy is tied into the whole mythology of the show now and what they are doing with him in the final stretch of the show. In the beginning of the Return he was the goofball we all love but after meeting the Giant he seems a lot more confident and a take charge kind of guy but still a total empath. I dig that.

- And hey, no Dougie or Cooper this week but the episode was so packed with great stuff that I didn´t even notice until it was over. Holy crap!

- What a great way to honour David Bowie with this flashback/deleted scene. Gordon´s whole dream sequence was beautifully shot and when we see the younger version of him talking to good old Cooper I was beside myself with joy.

- The scenes in the woods also had a very cinematic feel to them and seeing these four guys go on an adventure with identical backpacks biggrin.gif was really fun and mysterious. Classic Twin Peaks for sure.

- Sarah´s scene was totally unexpected to me. It seemed like last week she had enough of drinking alone in her house but I didn´t expect her to go into a bar and fucking murder a Leon Johnson-like trucker asshole. So did the Experiment break out of the box and went to Twin Peaks, now inhabiting Sarah? And BadCoop just wants to meet his mom?^^
Sarah´s first scene were the animals were mauling each other really prepared us for what´s going on with her.

- I also didn´t expect Diane to be in any way related to Janey-E. That reveal was just dropped mid-conversation and I almost thought I misheard. Curious to see what that will turn into.

-The first ten minute of Gordon yelling in their secret operation room or on the phone were gut-bustingly hilarious. Also: Him giving thums up, saying "Coffee time"? This gif will be used for the next fifty years.^^
And what about this FBI-guy in Las Vegas that Cordon calls who has a freak out: “HOW MANY TIMES HAVE IT TOLD YOU? THIS IS WHAT WE DO IN THE F. B. I.? I laughed out loud.

- James has always been cool that´s why he´s working as a security guard now. ^^ Again, I like that they redeem a problematic character. He still exhibits some of his old questionable behaviour (wanting to date a woman that´s taken) but it´s a lot better seeing him not as a brooding as before and connecting with the green-glove guy in a friendly way. Inifinitely more satisfying than remembering him for the boring Evelyn Marsh-storyline which was the nadir of the whole original show.
He also seems to be connected to mythology now, isn´t he? The sound that he´s inspecting in the basement sounds like the humming that Ben and Beverley have heard. Maybe it´s Josie, warning people that the Woodsmen are coming?

- That last scene in the Roadhouse with these new girls also took a very strange turn when Tina´s daughter suddenly wasn´t sure anymore if her uncle was there when Billy go hurt. The ominious soundtrack really made me feel uneasy and it´s like I can almost figure out what´s going on but not fully. I really want to see how this ties in with Audrey´s story and the rest of the mythology.


Only four episodes left guys. I can´t believe it. What am I supposed to watch after this is over? :?:
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