Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Discussion of each of the 18 parts of Twin Peaks the Return

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
Firewalkwithme91
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:20 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Firewalkwithme91 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:11 am

edit: double post for some reason.
User avatar
firefly2193
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:13 am

roadkill wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:I also hope that the wherever the story goes, and I have literally no idea (which is ridiculous/great at this point) doesn't do any sort of dis-service to the Laura Palmer story at the heart of Twin Peaks original

The fact that Laura's picture features so prominently in the opening credits makes me believe she's still very much an integral part of the story's plot.


I hope so, but, for example, the Sarah Palmer scene was arresting and brilliant, however....it led me to worry that *if* the story is that Sarah Palmer has always been a monster (of some kind), this kind of takes away from the very real and startlingly accurate portrayal of incestuous abusive relationships, with a father who's abusive and a mother who ignores/represses/is in denial about it.

However, this may not be the case at all. But that's the basis of some of my worries I have had throughout the Return.
User avatar
wxray
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:19 am

wxray wrote:
Dreamy Audrey wrote:I hope it is Bowie's voice because it would be stupid to use footage of him and have him dubbed by another actor, even if they had recast the role for future scenes. But Jeffries' voice is the only voice in this scene that sounded noticeably different from FWWM or the missing pieces (I recorded the three versions of "Who do you think that/this is there" and compared them). And Nathan Frizzell is credited as "Voice", but I don't remember any voice in this episode that could have been meant.

The dialogue was the same except for the this/that difference in Jeffries' line in FWWM and the missing pieces, and Gordon left out the part about Judy when he retold his dream in Part 14.


When Sarah takes off her face, there is a male voice that comes out of the darkness. I do not believe this is Grace's voice. I think this is The Voice in the credits.

Watched it again with headphones. Now I'm doubting myself.
bastia
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby bastia » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:22 am

Could sarah palmar be possessed by the experiment? We know the experiment arrived in our world in the first episodes, killing the kids. We don't know where that thing went... Do you think it has taken possession of sarah? "Something (surely) happened to her)"
User avatar
DeepBlueSeed
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:32 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:25 am

nonemoreblack wrote:
DeepBlueSeed wrote:That was an awesome episode. I've not read through the 19 pages of comments yet but just wanted to comment to say that the dropping in of a London accent was particularly bizarre for me. Twin Peaks has always been like a piece of escapist Americana for me, so it suddenly felt like I'd been wrenched into a British sitcom, where a man inherits superpowers through the possession of a magic glove. I really enjoyed the scene, but Freddie's account of his own White Lodge experience felt almost like a parody, as if someone had watched Andy's experience of the White Lodge and was taking the piss somewhat (much like the IT Crowd parodying The Matrix, or Father Ted parodying Speed). Just a bit of a disconnect, and almost certainly because it's my 'home accent', but I loved the scene.


I liked what someone on reddit said about how it was the clearest explanation of the White Lodge we've heard. but it was made confusing to follow by Freddie's accent and the slang he was using. I was kinda bothered by how stereotypical he was at first, but that made more sense.


To be fair it's not far off what a lot of people here in London do sound like, but because it's very different from what I expect to hear in a US show it automatically sounds like Hollywood Cockney, even when it's the real deal. It takes a while for me to get used to a character before I can ignore that. And, unless I rematch this part many times over, I'm probably not going to get beyond seeing this guy as a bit of a gimmick (the magic glove thing really doesn't help either).
"The stories that I wanna tell you about... "
LateReg
Posts: 994
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:28 am

counterpaul wrote:I have tons of scattered thoughts. Part 14 was phenomenal! Just going to mention a couple of things to start with as I process the whole:

- Interesting that Part 14 actually could have totally followed Part 12. I can see how those who saw this by mistake last week didn't immediately notice anything amiss. Think about it--there is nothing from Part 13 directly followed-up on in Part 14. Not one thread. The two sections are almost parallel follow-ups to different aspects of Parts 11-12. Interesting.

- I think if someone ever demanded that I sum up Lynch's sense of humor in less than 30 seconds, I would have to show them the ninja-window-washer scene. That is quintessential Lynchian humor at it's best. Absolutely bonkers-brilliant. I was dying.

- The Las Vegas FBI field office is also a candidate. Just stellar nonsense. Love the idea that there are teems of FBI underlings just terrified of Cole.

- People keep asking about why people are forgetting things (both blanking on highly significant things that have happened in the past, and neglecting to relay key details when they seem obviously relevant--Truman not mentioning Briggs to Cole, Cole not mentioning Janey-E to the Vegas FBI), but it's right there in the text. We're dealing with dream-logic here, folks. That's how it works! Stop trying to use rationality to analyze a giant dream, and I think you'll find things will fall right into place. I loved the whole bit in the Roadhouse about not being sure about whther her uncle was there! It just felt...right!

- Sarah is haunted. Deeply haunted. She carries the darkness of that house with her. In a story, more than anything else, about people who are stuck, I think Sarah is the most tragically stuck of all.

- My current thoughts on Diane: I don't think she's communicating with COOPER at all, at least not knowingly. I think the "dinner table" text was relayed to her via a third party. I think her reaction in the prison to COOPER was genuine and what Cole sensed in the hug was that she was hiding something significant, not that everything she said was a lie. I think the scene between COOPER and Ray in Part 13 is good evidence that Diane is not his stooge, because she has those coordinates and he doesn't know them until he gets them from Ray. Clearly, she knows more than she's telling the FBI, but my guess is she has good reasons. I also think her reaction to learning about her half-sister's connection was genuine--even if she may have been putting some pieces together that she didn't reveal. I don't know who she is communicating with (maybe it is Jefferies--maybe somebody we still don't know about), but I think she has Coop's best interests at heart. She's a fascinating character for sure and I love what Dern is doing with her.


I thought the same thing about Parts 11 - 14. Part 13 feels like it directly follows Part 11, and you don't need to know anything from Part 12 to appreciate Part 13 (the Audrey scene in 13 could have just as easily functioned as a similarly jarring intro to the character). I didn't notice until you said it, but the same applies to Part 14, which seems like the perfect follow-up to Part 12. Very interesting.

Also, Diane is fascinating to me because she started off so strong in Parts 6 and 7. But from Part 9 onwards we've mostly been given looks that are impossible to interpret and endless intrigue over what exactly she's up to and who is playing who re: Diane vs. FBI. I think this has to have a huge payoff/reveal.
thedarktrees
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:33 am

Further up the thread, some people had questions about whether the Fireman is indeed the same being as the Giant. I'm not sure one way or the other (or ultimately whether that will matter in the end) -- but I find it kind of interesting that all of the Giant's appearances in this season have him in another dimension and speaking the garbled backwards lodge-speak. In the first two seasons, the Giant only appeared in visions and, of course, spoke normally (except for the last episode and his one appearance in the Black Lodge).

Again, I don't think this will matter one way or the other -- but it's an interesting stylistic choice. The Giant had such a warm, yet commanding, voice when he spoke to Cooper in his visions. Some of that is lost in this version of the Fireman.

That said, the Fireman is still amazingly cool! I actually think it would have been interesting to have the James/Freddy scene happen earlier in the season, with the references to the Fireman and the sky vortex happening before any of us had actually seen those things on screen.
User avatar
Dreamy Audrey
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:35 am

wxray wrote:
wxray wrote:
Dreamy Audrey wrote:I hope it is Bowie's voice because it would be stupid to use footage of him and have him dubbed by another actor, even if they had recast the role for future scenes. But Jeffries' voice is the only voice in this scene that sounded noticeably different from FWWM or the missing pieces (I recorded the three versions of "Who do you think that/this is there" and compared them). And Nathan Frizzell is credited as "Voice", but I don't remember any voice in this episode that could have been meant.

The dialogue was the same except for the this/that difference in Jeffries' line in FWWM and the missing pieces, and Gordon left out the part about Judy when he retold his dream in Part 14.


When Sarah takes off her face, there is a male voice that comes out of the darkness. I do not believe this is Grace's voice. I think this is The Voice in the credits.

Watched it again with headphones. Now I'm doubting myself.

Do you mean the "Dou you really want to fuck with this?" That sounds like Grace's voice to me.


It's nice to finally be able to talk about the episode and read what others thought about it. It was difficult taking part in discussions during the last week because I had to be so careful not to give anything away by accident. I'm glad I watched Part 14 only once before it was taken down, because due to this, I was looking forward to seeing it again this week and am less disappointed about the lack of a new episode.

I'm also glad the Sky mix-up was for episodes 13 and 14 because they can be interchanged without spoiling anything of the story. However, in my opinion this episode fared better in it's intended position as Part 14, because without Part 13 I was really annoyed and disappointed about the lack of Dougie and Mr. C. again after we hadn't seen much of them for a time, but with the insertion of Part 13, we got more Dougie and Mr. C. in between and the sequence of scenes/characters seemed more balanced, so it wasn't as bad not seeing them this episode.

The glove scene seemed pointless on my first watch without the context of episode 13, but after seeing DoppelCoop's strength in Part 13, Freddie's super power will probably be important in the fight against him. I'm not sure how I feel about this, because A) it seems like either a superhero comic or something that might happen in a dream, and B) Freddie is such a minor character who appears out of nowhere. I would have preferred it if either his character had been established over the last 13 parts or a character that we already know had taken his place. However, I'm wondering if Freddie could be Donna's son because he is from Europe. At the end of season 2 Donna told her parents she wanted to study in Europe and since we haven't seen her in the new series, it's possible she went through with that plan.

I liked that we got to spend some time in Twin Peaks again and the forest was beautiful. I'm glad Naido is ok, I felt sorry for her when she fell after helping Cooper. But why is she in danger now, who are the people who want her dead and how does locking her up in a cell keep her safe?
I was surprised that Andy was the one who was pulled into the Lodge(?) but it makes sense as he seems to be the most innocent of them. He was also the only one to follow the instruction to put soil into his pockets immediately, whereas all the others hesitated for a moment.
During my first watch I thought the Lucy and Andy scene we saw in the Lodge was in the hospital and might have something to do with Wally or Lucy's weird condition, but now I think it could be in the Sheriff's Department. I think it is a scene from the past.

Interesting that Sarah didn't drink at the Roadhouse but at a different bar, considering some of the Roadhouse scenes seem unreal/dream-like. I didn't really like that Sarah was opening her face, I already disliked it when Laura did this but at least that was in the Lodge. BTW, some people here mentioned they thought the trucker was Leo, at first. I thought the same.

The Roadhouse scene was interesting because now it seems like Billy and Tina are real people. However, a few things were off. The two women were mentioning the nuthouse twice. There was also the jail scene where Chad said to the bleeding man, who could be Billy: "What the fuck is wrong with you?" and "Fucking nuthouse." Why is there so much talk about the nuthouse? Is this an indication that Audrey (or someone else) is actually crazy and some of the scenes are delusions?

Like a lot of the other Roadhouse scenes, there was mention of drugs/medication. Ella (the rash girl) said she was fired for being high, the women in Part 12 said that Angela was off her meds and now Megan (Tina's daughter) said she was getting high in her room. Is this all part of the Sparkle drug plot?

Megan couldn't remember if her uncle was with them when Billy came to their house bleeding from the mouth and nose and later when she and her mom were cleaning up the blood. Why would she not remember this detail, considering the importance of the event? Does she have a mental condition or is it the effect of the drugs or is it an indication of a corrupted timeline? And who is her uncle? Is it someone we already know, maybe Charlie?

Gordon's dream was interesting. In FWWM Jeffries said: "It was a dream. We live inside a dream." and now Monica Bellucci said: "We're like the dreamer who dreams and then lives inside the dream" and "But who is the dreamer?" I've been wondering about that question myself for a while because throughout this series I thought a few times "This might be Cooper's/Audrey's/Harry's/the girl's/... dream or delusion". Maybe there are several dreamers dreaming the same things, same as Laura and Cooper had the same dream. And maybe dreams aren't really dreams but glances at a different dimension.

By the way, it's weird how the series made such a mystery of ???????'s "name" but then it was spoiled weeks ago by the tracklist.
User avatar
firefly2193
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby firefly2193 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:36 am

For me this episode, in contrast to the past few parts highlighted why The Return can be a bit polarising for me. The scenes that feel the most alive and exhilarating are those that engage primarily through visual, intuitive film-making - scenes like the extended Naido/woods scene, or the Sarah Palmer scene. When The Return gets bogged down in characters simply talking in a room, often talking about events that we already know, there's a sense of over-exposition and heavy handedness.

An example of both of these was in the opening scene with Cole's dream. On the one hand, the visual story being told was both tantalising and subtly unnerving. But it was slightly undermined by Cole literally describing the events we were seeing on screen as they happened, or even just before they happened. I feel this could've been entirely more effective if we were simply shown Cole's dream without narration. Essentially, for me the show thrives when it shows rather than tells.
User avatar
Redlodge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:39 am

Is the Fireman Margaret Lanterman's husband ?
Is James going to open the door and get sucked into
one of the Lodges ?
Is Dougie/Cooper going to snap out of it when he sees Gordon and Albert ?
Are Janey-E and Sonny Jim manufactured too ?
Maybe they will get the real Dougie back.
Speaking of Dougie what was the thing that Mike shielded his eyes from ?
I hope this last 4 hours is as good as this past one.
When Jupiter and Saturn meet , oh what a crop of mummy wheat.
sewhite2000
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:17 am

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby sewhite2000 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:40 am

firefly2193 wrote:
roadkill wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:I also hope that the wherever the story goes, and I have literally no idea (which is ridiculous/great at this point) doesn't do any sort of dis-service to the Laura Palmer story at the heart of Twin Peaks original

The fact that Laura's picture features so prominently in the opening credits makes me believe she's still very much an integral part of the story's plot.


I hope so, but, for example, the Sarah Palmer scene was arresting and brilliant, however....it led me to worry that *if* the story is that Sarah Palmer has always been a monster (of some kind), this kind of takes away from the very real and startlingly accurate portrayal of incestuous abusive relationships, with a father who's abusive and a mother who ignores/represses/is in denial about it.

However, this may not be the case at all. But that's the basis of some of my worries I have had throughout the Return.


For these same reasons, I would prefer that Sarah's possession took place sometime after the events of the original series. I would also prefer her to not turn out to be Frog-Bug girl, which would also imply a possession. Although maybe it lay dormant for many years until recently?
User avatar
Redlodge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:44 am

If Diane is working with Dopplecooper why did he need the coordinates from Ray ?
When Jupiter and Saturn meet , oh what a crop of mummy wheat.
User avatar
Redlodge
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:44 am

If Diane is working with Dopplecooper why did he need the coordinates from Ray ?
When Jupiter and Saturn meet , oh what a crop of mummy wheat.
User avatar
hopesfall
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:33 am
Location: Coventry, UK

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby hopesfall » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:46 am

guildnavigator wrote:Can't believe nobody has mentioned that Windom Earle was researching Tulpas, as depicted in season two when Cooper and Truman are looking at the tape of Earle's research/lecture on the black lodge.


I thought that was Dugpas?
User avatar
wxray
Posts: 396
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby wxray » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:59 am

Dreamy Audrey wrote:
wxray wrote:
wxray wrote:When Sarah takes off her face, there is a male voice that comes out of the darkness. I do not believe this is Grace's voice. I think this is The Voice in the credits.

Watched it again with headphones. Now I'm doubting myself.

Do you mean the "Dou you really want to fuck with this?" That sounds like Grace's voice to me.


Yep. After a few more listens, I'm with you. Grace's voice, just in a monster tone.

And you all need to get the message to Sky for next week: fünfzehn, fünfzehn, fünfzehn, fünfzehn. :)

Return to “Parts Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests