Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

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PandemoniumSeesaw
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby PandemoniumSeesaw » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:39 pm

Sorry, I just read up to page 30 of this thread, could not make it to the end. But has anyone mentioned the fact that after Monica Bellucci says "We are like the dreamer who dreams and then lives inside the dream. But, who is the dreamer?", we are shown footage of Jeffries that precedes the part where he describes his experience above the convenience store and says "It was a dream. We live inside a dream."
Now, I do not know why that part was not shown and whether all this should imply that Jeffries is the dreamer, but I find this parallel very intriguing.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:22 am

Deep Thought wrote:I Just want to throw out there that Green Glove Boy may be James' imaginary friend, so to speak. That makes me feel better about him a little bit. James is waiting for the last delivery alone. No one interacted with Freddie in the Roadhouse, did they?

James is the one communicating with The Fireman.


This isn't fight club!
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:57 am

Manwith wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:I Just want to throw out there that Green Glove Boy may be James' imaginary friend, so to speak. That makes me feel better about him a little bit. James is waiting for the last delivery alone. No one interacted with Freddie in the Roadhouse, did they?

James is the one communicating with The Fireman.


This isn't fight club!


I'm just trying to figure out a way to make Hulk Hand more palatable. I'm surprised BAM and POW didn't appear on the screen during the fight at the roadhouse.
"E.g." means "for example". What I think you want to say is "i.e.".
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BigEd
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:38 pm

Manwith wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:I Just want to throw out there that Green Glove Boy may be James' imaginary friend, so to speak. That makes me feel better about him a little bit. James is waiting for the last delivery alone. No one interacted with Freddie in the Roadhouse, did they?

James is the one communicating with The Fireman.


This isn't fight club!


Or.....is it?!!! Maybe in the next episode we'll see James in a cell with a green glove on his hand. Maybe James is really the one who got pulled up into the lodge to meet with the Fireman. James may be cooler than ever! :shock:
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby whoisalhedges » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:30 am

Manwith wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:I Just want to throw out there that Green Glove Boy may be James' imaginary friend, so to speak. That makes me feel better about him a little bit. James is waiting for the last delivery alone. No one interacted with Freddie in the Roadhouse, did they?

James is the one communicating with The Fireman.


This isn't fight club!

Rule 1: We're not gonna talk about Judy.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Oneeyedwaldo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:36 am

PandemoniumSeesaw wrote:Sorry, I just read up to page 30 of this thread, could not make it to the end. But has anyone mentioned the fact that after Monica Bellucci says "We are like the dreamer who dreams and then lives inside the dream. But, who is the dreamer?", we are shown footage of Jeffries that precedes the part where he describes his experience above the convenience store and says "It was a dream. We live inside a dream."
Now, I do not know why that part was not shown and whether all this should imply that Jeffries is the dreamer, but I find this parallel very intriguing.

Sounds loosely like Inception.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby p-air » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:36 am

Anyone else curious whether Freddie is named after the British character actor Freddie Jones - who was in Elephant Man, Dune, Wild at Heart, On the Air, and Hotel Room?
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:48 pm

Not sure if this one or Part 12 is the least we see of Kyle (definitely this one if we’re not counting reused footage), but his “starring” credits on both Parts are kinda funny. Here we only get him from the chin down in Gordon’s dream, in reused FWWM footage, and in the trippy “overlapping heads” shot in the Fireman’s home movies.

Claaa7 and some other users have advocated an alternate viewing order: Parts 11/13/12/14. I didn’t do it on this rewatch but definitely will try it in the future — this does have the interesting side effect of stacking the two nearly-Kyle-free hours back-to-back. Does anyone who likes this viewing order feel that this it’s a good/bad/interesting experience barely seeing Dale for two straight hours at this stage in the game?

Btw, haven’t seen this mentioned...but is the circular skylight-thing Andy looks up into supposed to be the underside of the white/gold pool where they found Naido? I sort of got that impression this time.

Not much to say on Sarah that I haven’t said already (yet, anyway). This isn’t exactly about this Part, but has anyone posited that the pale horse is a manifestation of Judy? Given its connection to Sarah, and the fact that “the horse is the white of the eyes and dark within,” perhaps it is linked to the darkness we see within Sarah here?

I wonder if the fan community will come to a consensus and call Jay Aaseng’s character Billy. It seems like a pretty obvious inference, yet Lynch deliberately credited him only as “Drunk” right up to the end. Would sure be interesting to see an interview with Aaseng, although I’m sure he’d be particularly tight-lipped given that he’s part of Lynch’s inner circle. (Maybe he would just repeat the questions back at the interviewer?)

Anyone know exactly what’s going on with the “drunk”’s facial apparatus? He appears to have some form of twisted metal wire pulled across his face and under his nose. It almost looks like the kind of thin breathing tube that is placed in hospital patients’ nostrils, but it definitely looks to be metal. I can’t imagine what function this serves beyond looking horrific. Also, it seems oddly inhumane of the sheriff’s dept. crew to leave him in there drooling blood. The usually empathetic Andy doesn’t even pay him any mind whatsoever. Did Doc Hayward conduct a Skype eval?

(Apropos of very little, I pointed out a few months ago that Ben & Jerry’s mom — she of the hat! — appears to be wearing a breathing tube in the Great Northern groundbreaking footage in Episode 18.)

I noted this time that the guys never actually tell Chad what he’s being accused of (Frank just tells him “you know”). I like to imagine they’re actually arresting him for eating aromatic TV dinners in the conference room, and they have no clue about his role in the drug ring.

The long scenic hike through the woods plays as simultaneously its own beautiful thing and a tribute to LLG’s gorgeous direction way back in Episode 5. I wish we’d gotten more gloominess from the Wa. State locations, but DKL made incredible use of the woods throughout the season and especially in this Part.

I’ve been pretty vocal since Day 1 about disliking the glacial pacing of the forced Andy/Lucy comedy scenes, but I have to say, Cole and Lucy’s phone conversation is a comic mini-masterpiece (and maybe my favorite Kimmy moment on the new show). Gordon’s looooooong pause after the mention of Bora Bora is perfectly timed and makes me laugh in anticipation even before it happens.

I think this is the first Part where we see the FBI has transformed a room of the Mayfair Hotel into a nerve center, seemingly having had giant equipment banks shipped in. I love how absurdly James Bond-ish this stuff is.

I have to say, while I haven’t been as bothered by the gender politics of S3 as some (and I think Part 18’s subversion of/attack on tough-guy machismo makes clear that at least some of the troublesome aspects of S3 were thematically intentional), it bothers me that Tammy seems to have to get up and serve the men every time they have coffee or snacks. It happens here, as well as in the Buckhorn station in Part 11 (she doesn’t even work there!). I do think this is some manifestation/wish fulfillment of Lynch’s long-running waitress fetish, and in a weird way makes me more uncomfortable than any of the male gaze or violence against women scenes.

Having said that, I really love Tammy, and Bell’s performance. It’s an odd balance between awkwardly affected and genuine, but I find it very charming. I also applaud Bell for the classy and modest way she addressed the backlash/haters in that interview awhile back. My only complaint about Tammy is that her existence meant we were robbed of a Bell Roadhouse performance, which would have undoubtedly been beautiful.

A little odd that Gordon forces Diane to clarify that Coop did mention Garland on that night......then doesn’t follow up by asking what Coop actually SAID about Garland. Which, y’know, might have been kinda informative.

I was iffy about Freddie’s origin story from the get-go, but was able to mostly enjoy it as a standalone bit of L/F goofiness, a sillier version of the Roadhouse rando conversations (which are some of my favorite parts of S3). However, now that I know it was not just a random scene but setup for a major development (one which I admittedly dislike), it really feels awkward and shoe-horned in, and drags on FOREVER. Like Walter Lawford, Freddie is nothing more than a plot device (albeit a more colorful and arguably more fun one than Walter). But at least the payoff to the lamely transparent prepackaged conflict of the Walter storyline was Ed & Norma’s beautiful reunion, which made me weep. Whereas Freddie’s payoff was even more cringe-inducing than I had feared. This is one of the only elements of S3 that just flat-out does not work for me, sadly.

Interesting to realize that the “real” Diane is in a TP jail cell while we’re watching the tulpa in SD. Although...I’m still not fully convinced that there is a “real” Diane, as opposed to multiple shattered pieces of an identity (or, perhaps, from a more LH/IE standpoint, shattered pieces of an ideal/tulpa Cooper/Mr. C/Richard dreamt up, along with Janey-E, which took on lives of their own out in the world).

Lots of Rainier beer in this show! I believe that was the brand on Sky Ferreira/Ella’s infamous empty beer can, and it is also “Truck You”’s final drink. Of course, this is a local Wa. brew named after the mountain which plays a significant role in TSHoTP. Also note the PBR neon sign in the background at Elk’s Point #9, completing the Blue Velvet circle begun in Part 12, with Natalie and Abbie drinking Heinekens.

My initial reaction to Lissie was similar to many on this board: what the hell is this crap doing in TP?! However, I’ve really come around. Obviously, after this season, there is room for many genres of music in the show (I think the Vedder song — which I love — is a poorer fit for the old-school TP mood than Lissie). The song is catchy as hell, and I love the enthusiasm with which the singer pours herself into it, terrible lip-sync and all. It’s really a charming, joyous scene.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:55 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:it bothers me that Tammy seems to have to get up and serve the men every time they have coffee or snacks. It happens here, as well as in the Buckhorn station in Part 11 (she doesn’t even work there!). I do think this is some manifestation/wish fulfillment of Lynch’s long-running waitress fetish, and in a weird way makes me more uncomfortable than any of the male gaze or violence against women scenes.


Well, Tammy is the junior agent by a wide margin.

It may be worth noting that Gordon makes Albert leave and fetch mineral water right in the midst of Phillip Jeffries' dramatic appearance in the Philadelphia offices. "ALBERT, I'LL TAKE THAT SECOND MINERAL WATER." Albert silently(!) complies.

In season three we have Albert repeatedly getting drinks for tulpa Diane, and Gordon himself fetches little bottles of booze for tulpa Diane aboard the airplane.

Speaking of Jeffries, I keep meaning to ask if it's widely assumed (or even confirmed) that he's named for the Academy-Award-nominated set decorator Philip M. Jefferies?
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:04 pm

Jasper wrote:Well, Tammy is the junior agent by a wide margin.


This did cross my mind, and the other examples you provided make me a feel a bit better about it. I do still think there's an element of "DKL likes hot women bringing him hot coffee" in it.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Saturn's child » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:18 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Btw, haven’t seen this mentioned...but is the circular skylight-thing Andy looks up into supposed to be the underside of the white/gold pool where they found Naido? I sort of got that impression this time.

This never occurred to me, but it's an interesting thought! It's been mentioned (on what page, Fireman only knows), but there are two circular portals in the ceiling above Andy, & one of them contains what looks like a floater ( as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater), which suggests at least one interpretation/'view' is that they function as eyes. As someone who has a few floaters themselves, I was partial to this idea; although, as I've said before, when several ideas co-exist, I find it more powerful than one 'canon' interpretation, so I'm only too happy to add your gold/milk portal angle into the mix!


Mr. Reindeer wrote:has anyone posited that the pale horse is a manifestation of Judy? Given its connection to Sarah, and the fact that “the horse is the white of the eyes and dark within,” perhaps it is linked to the darkness we see within Sarah here?

Again, some tasty food for thought!


Mr. Reindeer wrote:I wonder if the fan community will come to a consensus and call Jay Aaseng’s character Billy. It seems like a pretty obvious inference, yet Lynch deliberately credited him only as “Drunk” right up to the end.

I personally don't see this character as Billy (nor do I see the 1956 [..?] girl as Sarah), but both are certainly interesting ideas to entertain.


Mr. Reindeer wrote:Gordon’s looooooong pause after the mention of Bora Bora is perfectly timed and makes me laugh in anticipation even before it happens.

Loved this moment too. :lol:


Mr. Reindeer wrote:Freddie’s payoff was even more cringe-inducing than I had feared. This is one of the only elements of S3 that just flat-out does not work for me, sadly.

I'm still not sure where I sit on this. Part of me wants to join the doubters (ie: almost everyone), but another part is kind of enamoured with its childlike simplicity.


Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’m still not fully convinced that there is a “real” Diane, as opposed to multiple shattered pieces of an identity (or, perhaps, from a more LH/IE standpoint, shattered pieces of an ideal/tulpa Cooper/Mr. C/Richard dreamt up, along with Janey-E, which took on lives of their own out in the world).

I hear you!
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:11 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I was iffy about Freddie’s origin story from the get-go, but was able to mostly enjoy it as a standalone bit of L/F goofiness, a sillier version of the Roadhouse rando conversations (which are some of my favorite parts of S3). However, now that I know it was not just a random scene but setup for a major development (one which I admittedly dislike), it really feels awkward and shoe-horned in, and drags on FOREVER. Like Walter Lawford, Freddie is nothing more than a plot device (albeit a more colorful and arguably more fun one than Walter). But at least the payoff to the lamely transparent prepackaged conflict of the Walter storyline was Ed & Norma’s beautiful reunion, which made me weep. Whereas Freddie’s payoff was even more cringe-inducing than I had feared. This is one of the only elements of S3 that just flat-out does not work for me, sadly.


I totally agree. Taken on its own, I actually like the Freddie exposition scene, but not in Twin Peaks. I don't know why that's where I draw the line, but it is.

What I don't understand at all is, besides the accent, why couldn't this role have been given to James? All that would have had to happen is Ben sends James down to investigate the hum, he is then transported to meet with the Fireman, and the Fireman sends him to a local hardware store to get a glove. It still would have been a little too silly for my personal tastes, but we could've seen it play out, vs hearing the story told, and I feel like it would have been a lot better to give James the role of "defeating" the force that destroyed Laura and would have made it more resonant.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:17 pm

bowisneski wrote:What I don't understand at all is, besides the accent, why couldn't this role have been given to James? All that would have had to happen is Ben sends James down to investigate the hum, he is then transported to meet with the Fireman, and the Fireman sends him to a local hardware store to get a glove. It still would have been a little too silly for my personal tastes, but we could've seen it play out, vs hearing the story told, and I feel like it would have been a lot better to give James the role of "defeating" the force that destroyed Laura and would have made it more resonant.


This is a great observation. Hell, since DKL obviously liked the Freddie actor, he could have just reversed the roles and had Freddie as James’s sidekick/tagalong. It would have made things at least a bit less contrived and more palatable.
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:30 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
bowisneski wrote:What I don't understand at all is, besides the accent, why couldn't this role have been given to James? All that would have had to happen is Ben sends James down to investigate the hum, he is then transported to meet with the Fireman, and the Fireman sends him to a local hardware store to get a glove. It still would have been a little too silly for my personal tastes, but we could've seen it play out, vs hearing the story told, and I feel like it would have been a lot better to give James the role of "defeating" the force that destroyed Laura and would have made it more resonant.


This is a great observation. Hell, since DKL obviously liked the Freddie actor, he could have just reversed the roles and had Freddie as James’s sidekick/tagalong. It would have made things at least a bit less contrived and more palatable.


Actually it had to happen in London at the Sycamore Street.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3915&p=112435#p112435

https://25yearslatersite.com/2017/08/17/lost-in-the-woods-the-connection-between-sycamores-and-portals-part-2/

Image
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Re: Part 14 - We are like the dreamer (SPOILERS)

Postby bowisneski » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:42 am

Xavi wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
bowisneski wrote:What I don't understand at all is, besides the accent, why couldn't this role have been given to James? All that would have had to happen is Ben sends James down to investigate the hum, he is then transported to meet with the Fireman, and the Fireman sends him to a local hardware store to get a glove. It still would have been a little too silly for my personal tastes, but we could've seen it play out, vs hearing the story told, and I feel like it would have been a lot better to give James the role of "defeating" the force that destroyed Laura and would have made it more resonant.


This is a great observation. Hell, since DKL obviously liked the Freddie actor, he could have just reversed the roles and had Freddie as James’s sidekick/tagalong. It would have made things at least a bit less contrived and more palatable.


Actually it had to happen in London at the Sycamore Street.

http://www.dugpa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3915&p=112435#p112435

https://25yearslatersite.com/2017/08/17/lost-in-the-woods-the-connection-between-sycamores-and-portals-part-2/

Image


In that case, James could've had his motorcycle accident on a Sycamore St somewhere else in the country and been transported to the Fireman when he had his accident. It didn't have to be Freddie and there's no reason it couldn't have easily been a regular Twin Peaks character with almost no additional effort is the only point I'm making. Especially since, unless Mark Frost confirms it, there's no concrete evidence that what happened to Freddie happened on Sycamore St, that just very good logical guesswork.

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