Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:57 am

sycamore wrote:MIKE (we've never actually seen the real face of MIKE. not like we've seen the real face of BOB. at least not knowingly. why not? who's MIKE? If we're going to get some answers about Judy, we should surely get some answers about MIKE, right? He's the biggest presence we know almost nothing about.)


FWWM pretty strongly implies that MfAP is Mike's "true" face. PMG cut off the Arm in an only-partially-successful attempt to rid himself of possession. The FWWM script even refers to MfAP as "Mike" in a couple of places.

Not sure why you put the Woodsmen and the "Bosomy Woman" where you did. Based on the limited info we have, they seem to me to be pretty firmly Lodge spirits, albeit of indeterminate alliance.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TPDpz » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:57 am

vicksvapor77 wrote:
TPDpz wrote:In 1984 Dale entering the black lodge had not happened. One would have to presume that it is the Dale Cooper we knew entering Twin Peaks in the first season. If that was not the case, Dale had been living off split personalities all his life - I do not think this is the case.

Jeffries apparently had been lost in space & time somewhere we cannot even behold to say. It is entirely possible that he had been in the future and counteracting with Mr. C and he got confused who that was he saw in 1984. Chronologically in 1984 Dale had not seen Jeffries before that. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


Do you mean 1989 where you say 1984? I guess we don't know for sure that Jeffries went forward in time but I guess it's likely since they are now emphasizing "who do you think that is there?"


You are correct, I'm not sure where that came from. I meant 1989. I'll fix that and note it to this post.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby sycamore » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:58 am

Novalis wrote:
KyleRickards wrote:
sycamore wrote:
So, I raise the question: Who is this Jumping Man who has been featured so prominently in the most minuscule amount of screen time? I originally conjectured that maybe the Jumping Man is MIKE ... I'm not so sure about that anymore. If the Jumping Man was birthed into Sarah Palmer ... And, since mother birthed BOB, who went from Mr Robertson to Leland Palmer to Dale Cooper ... And Sarah Palmer and Leland Palmer birthed Laura Palmer via The Fireman/???????/Giant ...

These are the groups of relationships I hope to see us all work on explaining. Why are these beings in their particular group together? What are their reasons for existing and the driving motivations of each group? Below is a really rough sketch of something that's way bigger than I alone can figure out.

White Lodge
The Fireman/???????/Giant
Dale Cooper (good)
Senorita Dido
Laura Palmer (orb)
Naido
American Girl
Andy Brennan
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
To put out the Fire.

Black Lodge
Mother
BOB (Mr Robertson / Leland Palmer / Dale Cooper)
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
After the great Fire of the atomic bomb blast, a rift between two worlds was opened and Mother spewed eggs of evil onto earth.

MIKE (we've never actually seen the real face of MIKE. not like we've seen the real face of BOB. at least not knowingly. why not? who's MIKE? If we're going to get some answers about Judy, we should surely get some answers about MIKE, right? He's the biggest presence we know almost nothing about.)
Phillip Gerard
Little Man From Another Place
Evolution of the Arm
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
was MIKE originally birthed by Mother, then, 'saw the face of God', 'cut off the arm', and is now the Water to put out the Fire?

Mrs Chalfont and son
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
Unknown but her son's pointy nose mask ties in with the next group.

Moth-Frog
Girl (1956)
Mrs Chalfont's Son
Jumping Man
Sarah Palmer
Pale Horse
Woodsman (who seemed to 'call' the Moth-Frog into the young girl's mouth)
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
"This is the water. And this is the well. Drink full and descend. The horse is the white of the eyes and dark within." (and note the neighing of horses at the end of Part 8 - an audio cue that correlates to the Pale Horse and Sarah Palmer)
See my post about this here:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3650&p=91865#p91865

Phillip Jeffries
Dale Cooper (evil)
Garland Briggs
Bosomy Woman
Judy
Woodsmen
Chet Desmond? (does he really belong in this group?)
Lil (does she really belong in this group?)
William Hastings
Ruth Davenport
Ray Davies
Monica Bellucci
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
investigating and completely drawn into ... something bigger than they knew.

Margaret Lanterman, The Log Lady
Deputy Tommy 'Hawk' Hill
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
Seers

Who else am I forgetting and what group of relationships/motivations do they belong in?


Albert and Gordon?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



For completeness I would throw Monica Bellucci (and friends) in there too. Even if they don't really have an independently autonomous existence in the universe of Twin Peaks (or at least, not as dreamed), and are just idealised dream representations of Cole's unconscious*, the same argument could be said of others.

*Not saying I endorse this view.


d'oh. How could I forget Gordon and Albert? Monica? hmmmm ... yes, I guess Cole's dream fits into this group somehow. And also, Lois 'I am like the Blue Rose' Duffy!

Phillip Jeffries
Dale Cooper (evil)
Gordon Cole
Albert Rosenfield
Garland Briggs
Bosomy Woman
Lois Duffy
Judy
Woodsmen
Chet Desmond? (does he really belong in this group?)
Lil (does she really belong in this group?)
William Hastings
Ruth Davenport
Ray
reasons for existing and driving motivations:
investigating and completely drawn into ... something bigger than they knew.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Electric Tree » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:05 am

just curious as to why the forum is blocking the printing of the word "c***"? ("fuck" seems to get by okay.....we're all adults, it's a common word)
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:06 am

Another thought that ties into Dougie either dying and going to see the fireman or simply going back through the socket the same way he arrived-- if the first scene of the season is in fact a flash forward, I'd say now is about when that would happen. Good Dale sits with the fireman, he tells him the three things, and Dale disappears, presumably to act on the things the fireman has just told him. And he's clearly with it, he very pointedly says "I understand." Perhaps that is the first moment we get our coop back, and we've already had it all season.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:12 am

future's past wrote:
Esselgee wrote:I just knew when that scene started that Audrey was not gonna get out the door.

So what "family" was Norma talking about? I thought for a second she was going to mention having a sister. Did she just mean the "family" of her diner employees and customers?


She meant Ed you big lug!


Maybe - -that's most likely. But it's a tricky question given all the discrepancies in TSHOTP around Norma, Norma's mother, Ed, and so on. Whether that stuff is relevant or not (and increasingly seems like TSHOTP has nothing to do with the new series), it's still interesting, and maybe even revealing, that Norma tells Walter she has no family. IS that a hint that Annie is indeed dead?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Troubbble » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:13 am

TheGum wrote:Another thought that ties into Dougie either dying and going to see the fireman or simply going back through the socket the same way he arrived-- if the first scene of the season is in fact a flash forward, I'd say now is about when that would happen. Good Dale sits with the fireman, he tells him the three things, and Dale disappears, presumably to act on the things the fireman has just told him. And he's clearly with it, he very pointedly says "I understand." Perhaps that is the first moment we get our coop back, and we've already had it all season.


Like this, and agree.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Taperecorder » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:15 am

sewhite2000 wrote:(Also, I hope this ends speculation that Ed is possessed because his reflection moved by itself for a fraction of a second)


JFC!!!!! Not one single person on here said Big Ed was possessed. NOT ONE. We talked about strange things happening to everyone in Twin Peaks and it showing up in things like strange hums at the Great Northern, rashy tweakers at the Roadhouse, gunshots from a minivan, portals in the woods, and, yes, a reflection doing something it shouldn't. Simple as that.

I am not sure why you feel the need to be so right about something and continually bring up that we were all wrong but please stop. This board is a place to discuss ideas and theories. None of us know what is going to happen from week to week. I saw what I saw (as did many others) and I believe it was there to add to the list of things showing us that something is very wrong in Twin Peaks.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby thedarktrees » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:19 am

Jasper wrote:I love The Return, but the absence of Bowie and MJA are always going to be sore points. It's very bittersweet, especially as it combines with the general sadness about the death of Bowie. On the other hand, we had what turned out to be miraculous appearances by Catherine Coulson, Warren Frost, and Miguel Ferrer. We were very, very lucky.

[...]

It will be interesting to think about, but I cannot shake the feeling that I'm supposed to be looking at David Bowie in that room. I'm not gonna lie, it hurts and there was probably nothing that could make it not hurt. Despite this, the entire sequence was incredible.


I loved the Jeffries scene (and his "teapot" replacement -- though isn't kind of like the weird vessel sounding the alarm in the Dido/Fireman scene from Part 8?) -- but also can't help but wonder how incredible that DoppelCoop/Jeffries meeting scene would have been had Bowie been around to shoot it. The physicality of Bowie's performance, how he would have been costumed, and revealed, etc. It just would have been awesome. Not to complain about the great scene we did get.

But did Jeffries actually send out Ray after DoppelCoop? I can't get clear on this! He "called" Ray (why??), but was surprised at the suggestion Ray was trying to kill DoppelCoop. It all comes down to the missing party in the DoppelCoop plot. Yet another "third man".
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:21 am

100% the Ed reflection glitches, and I do think it was intentional. I think it could be as simple as reinforcing the dualities, that everyone has that shadow self. I think it ties with seeing the two copies of all the sheriffs walking back to Jack Rabbits Palace. Whether or not it plays a major role in the overall plot at the end, I think there are discrepancies with time, possibly, but mostly we're being allowed to see an additional layer, that normally would exist outside of our view
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:25 am

thedarktrees wrote:
Jasper wrote:I love The Return, but the absence of Bowie and MJA are always going to be sore points. It's very bittersweet, especially as it combines with the general sadness about the death of Bowie. On the other hand, we had what turned out to be miraculous appearances by Catherine Coulson, Warren Frost, and Miguel Ferrer. We were very, very lucky.

[...]

It will be interesting to think about, but I cannot shake the feeling that I'm supposed to be looking at David Bowie in that room. I'm not gonna lie, it hurts and there was probably nothing that could make it not hurt. Despite this, the entire sequence was incredible.


I loved the Jeffries scene (and his "teapot" replacement -- though isn't kind of like the weird vessel sounding the alarm in the Dido/Fireman scene from Part 8?) -- but also can't help but wonder how incredible that DoppelCoop/Jeffries meeting scene would have been had Bowie been around to shoot it. The physicality of Bowie's performance, how he would have been costumed, and revealed, etc. It just would have been awesome. Not to complain about the great scene we did get.

But did Jeffries actually send out Ray after DoppelCoop? I can't get clear on this! He "called" Ray (why??), but was surprised at the suggestion Ray was trying to kill DoppelCoop. It all comes down to the missing party in the DoppelCoop plot. Yet another "third man".


I think Mike was using Ray to achieve his goal of Bob/Doppelcoop to return to the lodge and he was pretending to be Jeffries
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:28 am

sycamore wrote:
sylviecerise wrote:(taken from reddit)

Someone caught what appears to be Sarah's face superposed over the Jumping Man

Image

And from the last episode, when Sarah removes her face, we saw something that looked like the Jumping Man's nose.


Remember my comments from the Part 8 thread, when I wrote about the moth-frog climbing into the girl's mouth being the beginning of the Jumping Man?
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3650&p=92171#p92171

With this revelation in Part 15, it certainly seems as though we were all correct about this girl being a young Sarah Palmer. But I'm not so sure about the MIKE connection that I made back then.

sycamore wrote:There have now been three characters with long, pointy noses. As I mentioned before, Carlton Lee Russell, who plays the Jumping Man in FWWM is on the season three cast list that was released in 2016 (he has not yet appeared so far - not even as another character). We've all been talking about Bob. At some point, we'll surely be introduced to his partner in crime: Mike. Is Mike the Jumping Man? We know Phillip Gerard is inhabited by Mike. We know the Man From Another Place is The Arm. We know that the Man From Anther Place and the Jumping Man both wear red suits and are part of the same lodge. We see the Jumping Man as a potentially siginficant character in FWWM (placed behind the Man From Another Place and in strong lighting). We know Bob came in an orb. We see Bob partially come out of Mr C as an orb. The moth-frog comes from an egg. Is the moth-frog the beginning of the Jumping Man / Mike? Thoughts?

Love this DKL discussion of frog-moths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW6yZC9ZzDI
(from his quinoa video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11p0y9z1XOU


If this post proves anything it is that there is definitely not zero value in slowing ourselves down a little, and stopping to focus on subliminal imagery. On this occasion I sailed right past the Jumping Man sequence without noticing this superimposition. OK, this is not Lynch playing to the freeze-frame crowd I will agree out of general principle, but it is nonetheless there, and there is no way to argue it is accidentally there, for the briefest of moments. Remember, I'm not saying it's meaningful! It's significant though.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby beyondthesea » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:33 am

I didn't really get 'teapot' when we met Phillip Jeffries. I thought it was the same kind of bell shaped thing that was in the Giant's residence and in the room that Cooper gets transported to in outer space.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby chromereflectsimage » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:37 am

sycamore wrote:
Troubbble wrote:Wanted to post the lyrics to the closing song, "Axolotl" by The Veils.

To me, this is an incredible selection, with clear connections to the scene with Steven and the ongoing "sparkle" intrigue:

I'm glowing bright, obsidian
Axolotl, amphibian
Un-elemental chemicals
Got me growing six black tentacles

A little nightmarish, a little maudlin
Good golly go get the kid some laudanum!
Salvation's more than I can afford
Who needs The Devil when you've got The Lord?

Oh my soul
Losing control
Who built this heart?
Oh my God.

Now Sister Maggie's coming in fleet-foot
Baby's got a belly full of black soot
I've got the feeling I'd better just stay put
Ah she'll love you better than any real man could

An accidental amphibian
I'm growing giddy as a Gideon
Another head for the chopping board
Who needs The Devil when you've got The Lord?

Oh my soul
Who's in control
Who built this heart?
Oh my God.


Oh, and in case you didn't know what an axolotl was...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axolotl


from wiki: "The axolotl's real world ability to regrow limbs served as the inspiration for the Tleilaxu axlotl tanks in the fictional Dune universe created by Frank Herbert." whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Axolotls also stay in a juvinale state unless put under great stress or hormones. Dougie?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Postby WhiteLodge90 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:37 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:People still seem to be anticipating that this "Sparkle" drug is going to be some huge plot point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was mentioned once back in Part 4, correct? Yes, there's definitely a general theme of kids in the town of TP being on drugs (as there was in the original as well), but I think that specific dialogue was just to set up the "dirty Chad" subplot. I really don't think there's going to be some big reveal of a specific laced drug underlying all the darkness/weird behavior....we're just seeing Trainspotting by way of David Lynch.

The "teapot" doesn't bother me, although I like it less than the "Evolution of the Arm." It's a Lynchian solution to that dreaded notion of recasting. However, I wish he hadn't decided to hire an impersonator to imitate Bowie's Southern affect. Why not just have a distorted and uncredited voice a la the EotA? Frizzell was a great mimic in his one copycat line reading in Part 14, but it fell apart in this one. The impersonation of Bowie's (charmingly) awful dialect work was kinda embarrassing.

Rhodes wrote:
WhiteLodge90 wrote:I'm still holding out hope for at the very LEAST one surprise return. Have it be Harry or Josie, Annie, Windom Earle or Desmond in the red room in the last episode. I need at least one big unannounced cameo. Hopefully we get it!


Weren't we promised SEVERAL surprise cameo's (actors that were not on the casting list) by insiders?


We were. And it's seeming pretty unlikely IMO, since 15 hours in, the "217" cast list has more or less been a bible for the show's credits. As I've said before, the only people it would make any sense to withhold are Bowie and Ontkean. Now that Bowie is off the table, I have my fingers crossed for the Harry Skype call that I've been predicting since before we saw Frank's elaborate computer setup.


I think seeing Windom or Chet Desmond in the red room in the last episode could be possible too all though unlikely. It would make sense to not reveal them as we know they'd be appearing in the red room and weren't mainstays in the original cast.
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