Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

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Troubbble
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Troubbble »

TheGum wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
Jasper wrote: I love The Return, but the absence of Bowie and MJA are always going to be sore points. It's very bittersweet, especially as it combines with the general sadness about the death of Bowie. On the other hand, we had what turned out to be miraculous appearances by Catherine Coulson, Warren Frost, and Miguel Ferrer. We were very, very lucky.

[...]

It will be interesting to think about, but I cannot shake the feeling that I'm supposed to be looking at David Bowie in that room. I'm not gonna lie, it hurts and there was probably nothing that could make it not hurt. Despite this, the entire sequence was incredible.
I loved the Jeffries scene (and his "teapot" replacement -- though isn't kind of like the weird vessel sounding the alarm in the Dido/Fireman scene from Part 8?) -- but also can't help but wonder how incredible that DoppelCoop/Jeffries meeting scene would have been had Bowie been around to shoot it. The physicality of Bowie's performance, how he would have been costumed, and revealed, etc. It just would have been awesome. Not to complain about the great scene we did get.

But did Jeffries actually send out Ray after DoppelCoop? I can't get clear on this! He "called" Ray (why??), but was surprised at the suggestion Ray was trying to kill DoppelCoop. It all comes down to the missing party in the DoppelCoop plot. Yet another "third man".
I think Mike was using Ray to achieve his goal of Bob/Doppelcoop to return to the lodge and he was pretending to be Jeffries
It stands to reason, since whomever impersonated Jeffries (and manipulated Ray) was also able to furnish Ray with the Owl Cave Ring in his prison cell.

It's the same old fight over garmonbozia--with new pawns.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by thedarktrees »

Troubbble wrote:
TheGum wrote:
thedarktrees wrote:
I loved the Jeffries scene (and his "teapot" replacement -- though isn't kind of like the weird vessel sounding the alarm in the Dido/Fireman scene from Part 8?) -- but also can't help but wonder how incredible that DoppelCoop/Jeffries meeting scene would have been had Bowie been around to shoot it. The physicality of Bowie's performance, how he would have been costumed, and revealed, etc. It just would have been awesome. Not to complain about the great scene we did get.

But did Jeffries actually send out Ray after DoppelCoop? I can't get clear on this! He "called" Ray (why??), but was surprised at the suggestion Ray was trying to kill DoppelCoop. It all comes down to the missing party in the DoppelCoop plot. Yet another "third man".
I think Mike was using Ray to achieve his goal of Bob/Doppelcoop to return to the lodge and he was pretending to be Jeffries
It stands to reason, since whomever impersonated Jeffries (and manipulated Ray) was also able to furnish Ray with the Owl Cave Ring in his prison cell.

It's the same old fight over garmonbozia--with new pawns.
This all sounds right to me. Unless there is some other player in the Black Lodge pulling some strings. But these suggestion of it being Mike definitely sound right, for the most part. But the mystery phone call from earlier on has some odd stuff in it. "Just called to say goodbye" -- OK that makes sense if this is really Mike. But "then I will be with Bob again"? That doesn't seem to fit quite so well. Unless he's just talking about trapping Bob in the lodge (and is tired of only hanging out with the talking electro-tree).
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by krishnanspace »

Damn good episode!!!
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Pinky »

TPDpz wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:Alright someone's gotta come up with a good explanation of Jeffries in FWWM and in last night's episode to me cause I'm thoroughly confused. Which Cooper was in the FBI offices? Was Jeffries tricked into thinking that was "good Coop" last night? And no one has seen Jeffries in 25 years but he seems to be quasi-physically located right in Twin Peaks? I assume that's where the convenience store is since they shot it in WA and the forest looked the same. Plus, we know David Bowie was originally supposed to physically be in these scenes so his existence as a electric current/spirit in the tea pot (?) has no real bearing I don't think.

Also, did anyone think the clouds as the convenience store disappeared looked like it was floating away to relocate somewhere else? I think it was just visual trickery but it was interesting. I would like to know too how the portal in South Dakota led directly there? And does it always lead to the convenience store?
In 1989 Dale entering the black lodge had not happened. One would have to presume that it is the Dale Cooper we knew entering Twin Peaks in the first season. If that was not the case, Dale had been living off split personalities all his life - I do not think this is the case.

Jeffries apparently had been lost in space & time somewhere we cannot even behold to say. It is entirely possible that he had been in the future and counteracting with Mr. C and he got confused who that was he saw in 1989. Chronologically in 1989 Dale had not seen Jeffries before that. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[edit]

Fixed the date from 1984 -> 1989 as the conversation following posts shows. This to not cause any more confusion. :D
Jeffries went missing in 1987, how much of that time was spent in the Lodge, I don't know, but he was confused by the date. Time doesn't work right in the Lodge, once you've been there it seems like you've always been there, hence his suspicion of Cooper in the Philly offices.
Last edited by Pinky on Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Taperecorder
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Taperecorder »

Jasper wrote: I'm not gonna lie, it hurts and there was probably nothing that could make it not hurt. Despite this, the entire sequence was incredible.
I feel exactly the same way. I loved that whole part but man it was painful knowing who should have/could have been there. Especially if you go back and watch the videos for Lazarus or Blackstar!!!
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by DeepBlueSeed »

Taperecorder wrote:
Deep Thought wrote: It was so perfect. What do you say to someone who is dying, or to someone who has lost a loved one? NOTHING. Words are idiotic at that point.
Exactly! Hawk was perfect. That scene was absolutely stunning. I don't think I took a breath during the whole thing.
Loved it. Loved that he said "Good night" to her over the phone, and "Good bye" to her after he'd hung up. That seemed a compassionate way to say farewell to someone.

Loved also that she talked of death being akin to a change rather than a finality, which reminds me of the meaning of the Death tarot card... 'Death' represents the death of a situation, a change of circumstance, something coming to an end (this itself echoes in the picture of the white horse hanging about Hawk, the white horse from the Death card, and possibly the white horse we see in Lodge related visions.

That might echo in the final scene we see of Cooper. He doesn't die, but his current situation dies, 'Dougie' dies. Things change now.
"The stories that I wanna tell you about... "
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by SamGGD »

TheGum wrote:Another thought that ties into Dougie either dying and going to see the fireman or simply going back through the socket the same way he arrived-- if the first scene of the season is in fact a flash forward, I'd say now is about when that would happen. Good Dale sits with the fireman, he tells him the three things, and Dale disappears, presumably to act on the things the fireman has just told him. And he's clearly with it, he very pointedly says "I understand." Perhaps that is the first moment we get our coop back, and we've already had it all season.
I like this a lot. You could be right.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by dkenny78 »

I really was hoping that there would be some exchange of dialogue between Bobby and James in the jail cell scene. There's so much shared history between those two characters, I'm just curious what the status of their relationship is now. And, it would be a nice callback to that scene of them in the pilot when Bobby and Mike intimidate James in that same cell.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Rami Airola »

When I first saw that Jumping Man scene I thought he had the facial features of Mr. C but I wasn't sure if I had just imagined it.

It was quite a thing to learn there actually was something odd and that it actually was Sarah's face there.




By the way, I went through it frame by frame and there is actually one frame right in the beginning of the "morph" where Sarah's face isn't attached to the mask.
It's really hard to see it in this picture, but for a moment the face is separate from the mask. A mistake? Intentional? Meaningful? Meaningless? Who knows.
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Dreamy Audrey
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Dreamy Audrey »

mtwentz wrote:Hey, I know the 'Severely Disappointed' group is going to complain about ZZ Top being played at the Roadhouse, so we might as well get it off our chests on this thread...
Why would specifically disappointed people complain about that? Sorry, I don't get the connection between the disappointed group and a random Roadhouse band and your comment seemed to me like you were just trying to find something to make fun of the disappointed group. :?:


About the episode: I usually have very mixed/disappointed feelings about the series (even about episodes where I was leaning more towards "like"), but I absolutely loved this Part. I watched it twice this morning and will probably watch it at least once more today. :D

I was surprised about the sudden progress in Norma and Ed's relationship and thought it was too good to be true, so I hope it's not just a dream/fantasy. It came out of nowhere. I think it would have been better if we had seen more of them before, how they were sad about not being together and dealing with that. I mean, in Part 13 it looked like she was with Walter but now that didn't seem to be a problem for her and Ed to get back together. But other than that I have no complaints about their scenes in Part 15 and was very happy for them to finally be together. BTW, I didn't really trust Nadine and had a feeling she just released Ed because of her obsession with/crush on Jacoby. She even admitted to being manipulative and selfish, so maybe she released him for selfish reasons.

Finally some progress for good Cooper. He seemed very active this time. What triggered his endeavors to use the remote? It didn't seem like he was just curious but more like he really wanted to turn on the TV. I didn't catch the mention of "Gordon Cole" on the TV the first time and didn't understand why a random movie scene triggered his reaction. I really hope putting the fork into the socket woke him up. It would make sense, but I am a bit wary because we had so many moments that made us think he would wake up soon, just to be disappointed. What if the TV almost woke him up but the socket put him back to a vegetable? :mrgreen: And even if he woke up, I'm not sure we will see him next episode. We had a lot of Kyle MacLachlan this time, maybe the next part will focus on other characters.

One of the kids of the wrong Douglas and Janey at the FBI was wearing bunny slippers. It's not about the bunnies :mrgreen:

Finally we got confirmation that Audrey is Richard's mother. Wish we had also gotten confirmation about the father. I'm slightly disappointed we didn't get the talk that Mr. C. promised Richard and hope we will see that in one of the remaining episodes, because that might finally shed some light on Richard's parentage. It seems very likely now that Mr. C. is Richard's father, why else did he tell him to get in the car? In Part 13 I thought Richard might be after Mr. C. because he felt abandoned by him or because is angry that Mr. C. hurt Audrey. Him pulling a gun on Mr. C. convinced me even more of that.

I loved the convenience store scene. The Jeffries "teapot"/bell was weird (he reminded me of a Dalek), but I preferred it to monkey-Jeffries or to the arm-tree. The scene made me sad because I thought of how we might have seen Bowie instead if he were still alive :(

BTW, the room Jeffries is in looks like the room in which Cooper met American Girl/Ronette and Naido (and where we saw a blue rose on a table):
Image Image Image

Why didn't Mr. C. speak backwards when he was in the lodge? Is he now so accustomed to our world that he prefers or is better at speaking normal? Jeffries didn't speak backwards, either.

I loved Audrey's scene. She always found an excuse not to leave the house and seemed more confused than ever.

Two Roadhouse scenes in one episode :D When someone in the Roadhouse said "dial 911" I immediately thought of the drugged-out mother and her constant "119" shouting.

Who was the girl in the Roadhouse at the end waiting for? She was so dreamy, only half aware of what was going on around her and showed almost no reaction when the guys sat her on the floor. I loved the scene and the song.

No resolution for the James in the boiler room scene. I'm wondering if he found something/someone there who told him to get himself and Freddie arrested because now Freddie is in the same place as Naido. Maybe he has to protect her from the people who want to harm her.

If the two guys that Freddie punched are both in intensive care (according to Hawk), who is the other guy in the prison cell and why is he bleeding out of mouth and nose? There was another character bleeding from the mouth: the woodsman who was sitting in the chair, the one who was asked by Mr. C. about Phillip Jeffries. Is Freddie's glove-punch turning people into woodsmen or are the woodsmen something like reflections of people from our world?

I didn't understand a word of what Steven and Gersten said. Glad someone here provided the subtitles for the scene. I don't know why so many people are convinced Steven killed Becky. The conversation didn't sound like that to me. Becky and Steven did something, Steven blames himself, and Gersten blames Becky. I thought they were talking about the same thing that Steven and Becky talked about when he said he knew what she did. Besides, Becky called Shelly and told her she was worried about Steven because he didn't come home. It seemed to me they hadn't seen each other since he ran off with Gersten, so I don't think he had an opportunity to kill Becky.
Steven: Are you gonna come up with me?
Gersten: No. No, and you're not going either.
[...]
Steven: and when I - when I see you come up but...but... I may not even see you there, I mean...I mean...i mean gone. Where will I be? Will I be with the rhinoceros? The lightning in the bottle, hm? Please.
Gersten: It's okay. It's okay, okay.
Steven: Or will I be completely all like- like- turquoise? Hm? I feel something. Fuck. Or. Fuck. This is the end. I got a duty to do.
There seems to be more going on. Does Steven want to go to a lodge or lodge-like place? What is his "duty"? Gersten still had the key around her neck. What is it for? Is there a connection to the person who unlocked the door for Mr. C.?

What's up with all these animals? We had the monkey, the zebra, the penguin and now the rhinoceros... Does this have anything to do with the convenience store scene from the Missing Pieces where the electrician said: "animal life" and all those weird screeching sounds?
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by firefly2193 »

crash_and_burn wrote:
firefly2193 wrote: We only have two more weeks of Twin Peaks. That is heart breaking. Please let it end wonderfully.
Has it been confirmed that Part 17 and Part 18 will air together as a two hour finale?
Yep. Maybe two separate parts back to back though, not sure.
claaa7 wrote:
firefly2193 wrote:It's insane that we have 3 parts to give conclusions to so much. I honestly have no idea how they're going to do it.
i kind of feel the opposite after tonights episode, with the speed we are going in now and as most of the plot strands are starting to come together i no longer have any doubts that the time left is perfectly sufficient to tell the rest of the story.. of course, i am sure a lot of stuff won't be answered, probably way more than in the original TP
I find it strange that, given Lynch recently described season 2 (likely meaning post ep14 season 2) as 'stupid', he would write a storyline as dumb and awful (so far) as a man with a super strength green glove. Nadine's superpower looks positively subtle and organic film making by comparison. I wonder if it's a comment on that story line somehow? But it really doesn't seem to. Only thing I've really disliked about the last two parts.
now this i completely agree with, i hate, hate, hate the Green Glove Boy, although i did laugh in joy at the bizareness of ep. 15's use of his strength.
While the episode went 'fast' in that almost every scene had purpose, it didn't go fast in the sense of covering a lot of ground (there were still lots of extended sequences etc). I mean, there was literally zero advancement in the FBI storyline. Assuming that the final two parts will be all Cooper confronting mother/Mr.C/Jeffires/Naido/The Fireman etc. That's just one part left to do something with: insurance fraud, the Mitchum brothers/Candie, Audrey Horne + the roadhouse women, Diane, the hit on Dougie, the box in NYC, Major Briggs and Dougie's ring, Red and Sparkle, Beverly and her husband....

I personally would be happy if they abandoned most of these plot lines to focus on the good stuff. But given how this was scripted in advance, that surely won't be the case, and would be weird and sloppy writing if so. So I have no clue how its going to be done. Parts 14 and 15 were ace, but retrospectively make me even more frustrated with parts 9, 10, 12 and 13 if these last 3 eps are then rushed in any way. Honestly though, who knows.

Also the thing that annoys me about the James/Freddie storyline in addition to the sillyness of the superstrength glove is that James is acting like a complete ass. Going over to start a fight with a man because you don't like him cos he wants you to stop trying to steal his wife? And only doing so because you now have the confidence of being with someone who can put them in intensive care? Maybe James is the 'dreamer' for these scenes - but then the interaction with the police station and seeing Naido etc blurs that idea.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Taperecorder »

TheGum wrote:Whether or not it plays a major role in the overall plot at the end, I think there are discrepancies with time, possibly, but mostly we're being allowed to see an additional layer, that normally would exist outside of our view
Yes! This is exactly how I feel about that scene.
Last edited by Taperecorder on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Esselgee
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Esselgee »

So how was Richard Horne able to find DoppelCoop just based on an old photo his mother had? This guy is good! He's making the FBI look bad. Gordon Cole really needs to hire him.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by thedarktrees »

Esselgee wrote:So how was Richard Horne able to find DoppelCoop just based on an old photo his mother had? This guy is good! He's making the FBI look bad. Gordon Cole really needs to hire him.
I think the idea is that he followed him after witnessing him kill Ray at the Farm.

BUT: I wonder if Richard was also able to see the convenience store? Or whether DoppelCoop just vanished in front of him and then reappeared. That's a bit less clear.
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Re: Part 15 - There's some fear in letting go (SPOILERS)

Post by Low Entropy »

Was the "Las Vegas?" text that Cooper sent the one Diane got a few episodes earlier? If so, we have the ultimate confirmation we are not seeing a straight timeline.
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